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Part time teachers and S&S

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  • 08-01-2014 12:33pm
    #1
    foodie86
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭


    I'm a part time teacher non dept paid, am I still obliged to do the 43 s&s hours? Am I entitled to opt out? I can't see what the advantage of opting in is as I am not in a pensionable situation.
    There seems to be no clarification on ASTI website.

    Any help welcomed thank you


Comments

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    #2
    ahahah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭ahahah


    I have the same question


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    #3
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    ahahah wrote: »
    I have the same question

    who pays you?


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    #4
    foodie86
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭foodie86


    teacherhead wrote: »
    who pays you?

    I am paid solely by the school .


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    #5
    teach432
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭teach432


    I don't know about people not paid by the Dept. It won't be 43hrs though. That is the figure for teachers with 22hrs. I have 14 and my principal has reduced my S&S commitment accordingly.


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    #6
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,401 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    paid by dept means pro rata for everything. Paid privately is a private arrangement


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    #7
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    TheDriver wrote: »
    paid by dept means pro rata for everything. Paid privately is a private arrangement

    Aye, but I suppose it would have to refer back to the original contract.

    The op's contract might state that remuneration is linked with dept paid colleagues so all the increments/allowances/deductions would be the same ..therefore one could infer that the S&S duties would be the same.

    The again if there is nothing about being linked to other teachers in your contract then 'you're your own man' so to speak. Although if you have been getting increments and allowances just as dept teachers are then there is a link implied so you would have to follow suit with the rest.

    I presume the op has their own hours part time! If it's covering for another teacher and it's not their own hours then I couldn;t say for certain what the upshot is.

    Someone in an earlier thread was asking about 'contracting' themselves out to the school as a 'sole trader' which might be an interesting way of around all of this...although the employment/social welfare/tax implications could be totally different.

    Really and truly as regards being school paid and CID's ..it's a mess as to what your rights are. I've studied a few court cases online and it really is a grey area. In our school everyone is treated the same so there's never any problems.

    Best bet would be for the OP to just ask the DP, it is probably on a pro rata basis so they might only end up doing 1 class a week, so they could balance that against kicking up a fuss (which of course may be their entitlement). Maybe by email just for the record.


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    #8
    foodie86
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭foodie86


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Aye, but I suppose it would have to refer back to the original contract.

    The op's contract might state that remuneration is linked with dept paid colleagues so all the increments/allowances/deductions would be the same ..therefore one could infer that the S&S duties would be the same.

    The again if there is nothing about being linked to other teachers in your contract then 'you're your own man' so to speak. Although if you have been getting increments and allowances just as dept teachers are then there is a link implied so you would have to follow suit with the rest.

    I presume the op has their own hours part time! If it's covering for another teacher and it's not their own hours then I couldn;t say for certain what the upshot is.

    Someone in an earlier thread was asking about 'contracting' themselves out to the school as a 'sole trader' which might be an interesting way of around all of this...although the employment/social welfare/tax implications could be totally different.

    Really and truly as regards being school paid and CID's ..it's a mess as to what your rights are. I've studied a few court cases online and it really is a grey area. In our school everyone is treated the same so there's never any problems.

    Best bet would be for the OP to just ask the DP, it is probably on a pro rata basis so they might only end up doing 1 class a week, so they could balance that against kicking up a fuss (which of course may be their entitlement). Maybe by email just for the record.


    Just to update on my situation, Yes hours for s&s will be pro rata and we are expected to be available. I'm on my own hours but no such thing as a CID. Which is terrible really, feel like this us such a grey area and that part timers have very little rights. I am in a union but still feel they hardly know the details themselves.


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    #9
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    foodie86 wrote: »
    Just to update on my situation, Yes hours for s&s will be pro rata and we are expected to be available. I'm on my own hours but no such thing as a CID. Which is terrible really, feel like this us such a grey area and that part timers have very little rights. I am in a union but still feel they hardly know the details themselves.

    Depends though... how long have you had your own hours in that school? If you have been there for 4 years now and this is your 5th year then you should unless there is 'objective grounds' (which is the employers 'get out' clause). I think the union has also fought cases for CID's when the first 3 years weren;t on 'own hours'... they put a published a few case outcomes in their newsletters''

    Since the HR changed it to 3 years you could also argue your case under this ..especially if all your other pay/conditions are linked with ASTI/dept paid members..your CID rights should also be linked.
    If you feel like a little light reading the relevant stuff is under Protection of Employees (Fixed Term Work) Act, 2003. (Unless it's changed). People will tell you it's different for teachers but the law is the law and technically you could argue under the 'private arrangement' aspect. There's a few legal companies that provide info on their homepages in relation to 'education teachers and CID Fixed term'. But be careful employing them..they'll always tell you you've a great case etc.
    If you're in the ASTI then you should be getting advice as that's what you are paying your dues for, keep pestering them and eventually you will get the correct person..also talk to your union rep as they might have access that way ..

    p.s. If you are in the TUI then they definitely wont be helping you as they don't agree with fee charging schools etc...You could actually apply for a refund if they have registered you on their books incorrectly... ASTI is traditionally the union for privately paid teachers


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    #10
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    I'm pretty sure the CID aspect of teaching is as a result of some European ruling? Might mean there is a case there foodie86


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    #11
    foodie86
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭foodie86


    Musicmental85 wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the CID aspect of teaching is as a result of some European ruling? Might mean there is a case there foodie86

    Unfortunately the subject I teach has never had a permanent teacher position. Apparently one teacher before me was there for 11 years - non pensionable with only part time hours so no "holiday pay". I don't think I will be the one to change this system of thinking by management.

    As a result there is a very poor view on behalf of staff and students of my subject, which can be very disheartening at times. I view it as a stepping stone to hopefully a pensionable job elsewhere. At this rate I feel I could have a very long wait!

    ASTI while I am happy to be in it can only offer so much advice. At the end of the day I am just happy to be working.


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    #12
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    I don't know foodie... I'm no legal eagle and as I said solicitors will always tell you that you have a great case once your paying (although I think there are no win no fee solicitors out there...you mightnt win any money as such but they get costs awarded and you might get your Cid!)
    .... if you take it from the point of view that the last teacher was strung along for 11 years on a part time basis, If the school genuinely didn't see a need then why do they keep employing teachers for well over a decade (the fact that you are school paid vs. Dept paid is extranious as the 2003 law still applies for any job)... CID was to prevent against this exploitation happening. Don't be so quick to dismiss the breaks in service during the summer either. I totally understand that your situation might be precarious, however you might find yourself still in the same position in 11 years time like the last teacher. I just think the union is taking the proverbial as there has been similar cases to your own published in their newsletters, so someone must know something in the ASTI office!!!

    It's probably the most common talked about pathway to a 'full hours' job in this forum but....have you ever considered doing/studying for a second subject?

    Anyhow I'm off topic...


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    #13
    fall
    Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭fall


    CID is European law and applies to all jobs not just teaching. By not paying you through the summer they are technically breaking your service but I beieve you would still have a case as they are bringing you or someone else back to fulfill the job every September. I would follow this up as you would be entitled to back pay for your summer if it was decided that you should have a CID.
    Have you put this in writing to your union and requested a stage 1?
    I would make this formal because as Armelodie said you could still be in the same position in 11 years.


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    #14
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    fall wrote: »
    CID is European law and applies to all jobs not just teaching. By not paying you through the summer they are technically breaking your service but I beieve you would still have a case as they are bringing you or someone else back to fulfill the job every September. I would follow this up as you would be entitled to back pay for your summer if it was decided that you should have a CID.
    Have you put this in writing to your union and requested a stage 1?
    I would make this formal because as Armelodie said you could still be in the same position in 11 years.

    Aye, don't be put off by the 'private arrangement' argument (this started to be bandied about in 2010 after some numpty judge dismissed a case for a privately paid teacher who was looking for equal rights with his colleagues). If it is the case that you get the same pay,(and pay cuts!) Increments etc then normal employment legislation still applies .
    usually the old formal pen and paper is the best way forward..


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