Five ways to improve public transport in Ireland

RonnieRocket · 08-02-2014 2:07am

end of the road wrote: »

time for a government with balls to tell the elderly pay for your own medical care like the rest of us

You're equating free travel across the entire country with medical care? This just shows how desperate you are. Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

end of the road wrote: »

tough if you can't afford it you'll just have to die

You won't die from not having a picnic on a train with the bingo club. Stop being hysterical.

end of the road wrote: »

...nobody is saying their isn't a problem with the free travel system,

Glad you agree there is a problem with the FTP.

end of the road wrote: »

but simply abolishing it could mean less journeys which could undermine services and cause them to go,

Seems like a good idea to me. Market forces at work. No supply without demand. Artificially inflating ridership figures of the Western Rail Corridor with grannies getting free passes is not doing the country any favours. How about we close all the failure railways and invest that money in Metro North, the DART, and other public transport services people actually use.

end of the road wrote: »

reforming the free travel scheme is the best way with means testing.

I'm all ears. Perhaps restricting the use of the Free travel pass to the local area only? ie the local supermarket, hospital etc.

ardmacha · 08-02-2014 2:58am

RonnieRocket wrote: »

. Remember this next time you are left standing on your hour-long commute home from an exhausting day at work.

There is a need for more data collection on free passes and electronic passes should be introduced to facilitate this. But I suspect not many journeys are in rush hour.

Even if you're a millionaire, you're entitled to a pass. Time for a government with balls to tell aul Biddy to cough up for a ticket like the rest of us.

Wealthy people typically don't use the free pass much. Hardly worth the effort of excluding them.

end of the road · 08-02-2014 3:29am

RonnieRocket wrote: »

You're equating free travel across the entire country with medical care? This just shows how desperate you are.

i'd re-read your post again if i were you before calling me "desperate"

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

and yours does, some article in a rag claiming that the trains are full of pensioners having a picnic is laughable.

RonnieRocket wrote: »

You won't die from not having a picnic on a train with the bingo club.

lol

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Stop being hysterical.

back at you

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Seems like a good idea to me. Market forces at work. No supply without demand.

you could say that about anything, sadly sometimes market forces can't be left to work, otherwise their would be no subsidized anything and those who can't afford will be left to their own devices, which if happens you will be the first to complain when the you know what hits the fan, if thats what you want fine, but its not going to happen, sorry to burst your bubble.

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Artificially inflating ridership figures of the Western Rail Corridor with grannies getting free passes is not doing the country any favours.

who's Artificially inflating ridership figures of the Western Rail Corridor? i'd be interested to know.

RonnieRocket wrote: »

How about we close all the failure railways and invest that money in Metro North, the DART, and other public transport services people actually use.

which failure railways would you be talking about? name them, if the railways were to go the money won't be invested in dart or metro north or any supposed public transport that people supposibly use, if metro north is to happen it will be because its decided its going to happen, closing railways will have nothing to do with whether metro north goes ahead or not, no really it won't

RonnieRocket wrote: »

I'm all ears. Perhaps restricting the use of the Free travel pass to the local area only? ie the local supermarket, hospital etc.

what if you don't have a local hospital? what if your appointment is in dublin? you can forget it, abolishment of the free travel scheme and mass closures to divert money to metro north isn't going to happen, metro north will have nothing to do with the rail network, people use the railways, once the recession is fully over and things get good again passenger numbers will rise

Sam Russell · 08-02-2014 12:03pm

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Abolish the free travel pass. This was introduced by the corrupt Fianna Fáil government under Bertie Ahern in an attempt to buy the grey vote.

It was not, it goes back to an earlier corrupt Fianna Fail government.

corktina · 08-02-2014 12:06pm

RonnieRocket wrote: »

Abolish the free travel pass. This was introduced by the corrupt Fianna Fáil government under Bertie Ahern in an attempt to buy the grey vote. The country was awash with money back in 2007. It's broke now in 2014 and we can't afford it. We could probably build Metro North with the tax money used to subsidise this pass. Think of the world class infrastructure Ireland could have.

It's unbelievable that a pensioner, who may not have worked a day in their life, can travel from Cork to Donegal at their leisure without spending a penny. There have been reports of groups of grannies having picnics on the trains. They aren't even travelling anywhere. A ride on the train is simply a day-out for them. Remember this next time you are left standing on your hour-long commute home from an exhausting day at work.

It's almost impossible to have a mature discussion on the subject without people interjecting with emotive guff about their own "poor" granny (despite the fact that they receive a generous pension, free medical card, fuel allowance ad infinitum). The facts are: Even if you never worked a day in your life, you're entitled to a pass.
Even if you're a millionaire, you're entitled to a pass. Time for a government with balls to tell aul Biddy to cough up for a ticket like the rest of us.

Abolish the free pass and you'll close half the system and reduce the frequency on the rest. The free passes are effectively a subsidy on the rail network...do away with them and the cash they bring in goes too.

RonnieRocket · 08-02-2014 12:17pm

corktina wrote: »

Abolish the free pass and you'll close half the system and reduce the frequency on the rest. The free passes are effectively a subsidy on the rail network...do away with them and the cash they bring in goes too.

This is what I'm referring to when I talk about "artificially inflating ridership figures". A lot of pensioners wouldn't ride the trains at all if they had to pay out of their own pocket as they're not necessary journeys. They get the train from Limerick to Galway and then get the next train back. It's simply a day out for them. Wouldn't you prefer to see the failing WRC closed and that money diverted to improving the Northern Line or the DART which people do use? I remember a Prime Time investigation showing a grand total of 9 passengers on WRC service, most of whom were pensioners having a picnic.

If the FTP isn't abolished, it should certainly be reformed at least. Maybe a Dublin Bus pass only (no trains or intercity busses). Don't buy into the narrative that the elderly in this country are poor. They are well taken care of with our generous social welfare state. Politicians are tripping over themselves to appease the grey vote. Its the youth who are being swindled and sent abroad packing.

corktina · 08-02-2014 12:22pm

RonnieRocket wrote: »

This is what I'm referring to when I talk about "artificially inflating ridership figures". A lot of pensioners wouldn't ride the trains at all if they had to pay out of their own pocket as they're not necessary journeys. They get the train from Limerick to Galway and then get the next train back. It's simply a day out for them. Wouldn't you prefer to see the failing WRC closed and that money diverted to improving the Northern Line or the DART which people do use? I remember a Prime Time investigation showing a grand total of 9 passengers on WRC service, most of whom were pensioners having a picnic.

If the FTP isn't abolished, it should certainly be reformed at least. Maybe a Dublin Bus pass only (no trains or intercity busses). Don't buy into the narrative that the elderly in this country are poor. They are well taken care of with our generous social welfare state. Politicians are tripping over themselves to appease the grey vote. Its the youth who are being swindled and sent abroad packing.

I would rather see that.

As you say if a lot of pass holders had to pay , they wouldn't travel. Take away their pass and you take away the income stream. There would be no money to divert anywhere.

Sam Russell · 08-02-2014 2:06pm

Free travel for the elderly is given for social reasons - to allow them out and reduce social isolation.

Another point is that driving licences are restricted for those over 70. If you are 70 or over, renewing your licences requires a full medical report that is not required for those under 70. Also the licence is only issued for 3 years. For those over 80, the medical is annual and the licence only lasts one year. So restricting the elderly to just being passengers is compensated by giving them free travel. Seems fair to me.

There are many anomalies within the system that should be sorted - most arise from the all or nothing aspect of the FTP, maybe this is an area that should be tackled first. Why do carers for elderly people get a full FTP in their own right?

end of the road · 08-02-2014 6:19pm

RonnieRocket wrote: »

This is what I'm referring to when I talk about "artificially inflating ridership figures". A lot of pensioners wouldn't ride the trains at all if they had to pay out of their own pocket as they're not necessary journeys. They get the train from Limerick to Galway and then get the next train back. It's simply a day out for them. Wouldn't you prefer to see the failing WRC closed and that money diverted to improving the Northern Line or the DART which people do use? I remember a Prime Time investigation showing a grand total of 9 passengers on WRC service, most of whom were pensioners having a picnic.

If the FTP isn't abolished, it should certainly be reformed at least. Maybe a Dublin Bus pass only (no trains or intercity busses). Don't buy into the narrative that the elderly in this country are poor. They are well taken care of with our generous social welfare state. Politicians are tripping over themselves to appease the grey vote. Its the youth who are being swindled and sent abroad packing.

more rabel rabel
1. again who is inflating the ridership of the WRC and public transport in general, you have failed to tell me
2. public transport isn't there for only necessary journeys, you don't have exclusive rights to public transport, its for everyone to use, you don't like it tough
3. the money saved from closing the WRC is not going to go to improving the northern line or the dart, not going to happen, for the moment money will be spent on keeping everything servicable to a good standard and services running, closing the WRC will most likely lead to whatever money being saved cut from the subsidy knowing the government
4. as it has been explained to you, you remove the FTP for bus and rail most of it could go, or the subsidy will have to be severely increased, either way your paying. public transport in this country will for the most part need to be subsidized whoever is running it as it is a vital social service for many.
5. you can buy what you like but some pensioners will be poor and others won't, just because we have a good social welfare system doesn't mean people aren't struggling for various reasons
6. nobody is being sent packing abroad, their choosing to go of their own accord, when times get bad people leave, the same happened in the 80s and before, people often go somewhere else to make a better life for themselves

Banjoxed · 08-02-2014 6:45pm

Grannies having picnics on trains. God the horror of that :rolleyes

Have the balls then to stand for election on a "Screw the Pensioners" ticket.

RonnieRocket · 08-02-2014 6:54pm

^^^ Told ya it would be impossible to have a rational debate on the FTP without posters introducing emotive guff about poor, starving grannies shivering in the freezing cold.

Have the balls then to stand for election on a "Screw the Pensioners" ticket

No, we'll just screw the youth (our future) and the working man (the taxpayer) instead. The elderly are the ultimate untouchables in this country.

Sam Russell · 08-02-2014 7:07pm

RonnieRocket wrote: »

The elderly are the ultimate untouchables in this country.

No, that's the bankers, lawyers, consultants, politicians and their friends.

foggy_lad · 09-02-2014 3:35am

RonnieRocket wrote: »

^^^ Told ya it would be impossible to have a rational debate on the FTP without posters introducing emotive guff about poor, starving grannies shivering in the freezing cold.

No, we'll just screw the youth (our future) and the working man (the taxpayer) instead. The elderly are the ultimate untouchables in this country.

What percentage of the travelling public do you think uses free travel?

Cut free travel and you can cut transport services across the state companies and others who accept the pass by at least the same percentage as people will simply not travel.

Less passengers means less trains less buses and less jobs and it will also most likely lead to increased fares as subsidies are cut altogether as the social element of the public transport system will have been removed.

Grandeeod · 09-02-2014 10:53am

FTR it was Charlie Haugheys FF Government that introduced it many moons ago.

For months I have been reading here of how the FTP is the great big financial hole in Irish Rail. So along comes somebody saying it should be abolished and hey presto, the sudden realisation that if it were, IRs financial predicament could be worse. Make up your minds. I am of the opinion that the FTP is not responsible for the problem in IR. It is not outlandish to suggest that if the FTP was abolished, then those using it would not pay/use the service in such large numbers. And lets remember that the FTP isn't just issued to OAPs.

I'm in favour of abolishing it and replacing it with a model that is a little bit more financially/socially palatable. But IRs financial issues are down to far more than the FTP.

Sam Russell · 09-02-2014 2:59pm

The FTP is being reviewed as far as I can see. A new card is due out soon.

The faults with the FTP are:
1. It is all or nothing. You get it or you do not, and if you have one, you can travel anywhere at any time.
2. 50% or so of the population have one. That is ridiculous.
3. It has no security, and no photo for those outside Dublin. That is ridiculous also.
4. There should be different categories so that the user category can be checked against the user. eg. Male/Female, OAP, disabled, schoolchild, etc. Give the bus driver some chance of checking.
5. Have an expiry date. Current ones have no expiry date.
6. IE, BE and DB get a block grant to cover FTP with no reference to the actual usage. Social Welfare can give out as many as they like, it costs no extra to them.

Sorting this out would be one way to improve public transport, but not by abolishing it. In many voxpox reports, people have said they would be prepared to pay towards their fare, particularly on long journeys. Restricting time of travel used to be a feature, and this could be reintroduced.

dissed doc · 09-02-2014 4:14pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

In my opinion the State should be using public transport policy to actively reduce road dependency for personal journeys and freight.

That is against the policy of the state.

KCAccidental · 09-02-2014 6:35pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

2. 50% or so of the population have one. That is ridiculous.

do you have a source for that? there are hardly 2 million free travel passes.

Banjoxed · 09-02-2014 8:26pm

dissed doc wrote: »

That is against the policy of the state.

Source?

Banjoxed · 09-02-2014 8:27pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

do you have a source for that? there are hardly 2 million free travel passes.

Well the poster feels that is true so therefore it is true. I think..

Sam Russell · 09-02-2014 9:05pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

do you have a source for that? there are hardly 2 million free travel passes.

The department has frozen funding for the scheme at 2010 levels and it cost €75.5m last year, covering 720,000 customers. When spouse and companion passes are taken into account, there are more than 1.1 million customers eligible for free travel.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pensioners-free-travel-scheme-hit-by-rampant-fraud-28815962.html

1.1 million people out of 4 million, so not quit 50% but those are 2010 figures and does not count fraudulent ones. The 50% relates to medical cards of one sort or another as far as I recall. These figures are bandied about by the media and one never knows the exact figure. I doubt the dept does either.

KCAccidental · 09-02-2014 9:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pensioners-free-travel-scheme-hit-by-rampant-fraud-28815962.html

1.1 million people out of 4 million, so not quit 50% but those are 2010 figures and does not count fraudulent ones. The 50% relates to medical cards of one sort or another as far as I recall. These figures are bandied about by the media and one never knows the exact figure. I doubt the dept does either.

so you inflated the figures by 100% to suit your point.

Sam Russell · 09-02-2014 11:40pm

KCAccidental wrote: »

so you inflated the figures by 100% to suit your point.

Well, there are no official figures and that figure comes from that reputable newspaper, the Indo, and relates to 2010, but whether it is 1.1 million, or 2 million, it is a very large proportion of the population that can avail of free travel Add to that those who use fake FTPs or use someone elses FTP, and those that just evade their fares, it is no wonder that the carriers have a problem with finances. If each pass is used for 2 journeys a week at €5 each, that is about €570 million, covered by a subvention of €75 million.

Now genuine FTP holders are supposed to be carried for free, but the scheme numbers are such that it is a burden on the state, and the state has reneged on this by capping the payment without capping the numbers with the cards. Something has to give. Fares rise, and service levels fall, and paying customers leave to find better and cheaper alternatives.

CIE needs to increase its revenue protection efforts as an urgent action. People should pay the fare or pay a fine.

Also, the FTP needs to be tackled either by reforming it or restricting the numbers of people entitled to it.

Hilly Bill · 09-02-2014 11:54pm

periodictable wrote: »

Do a Maggie Thatcher job on the unions and privatize everything.

Its not far from happening if Leo gets his way. I see something happening in 2017.

L1011 · 09-02-2014 11:57pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

FTR it was Charlie Haugheys FF Government that introduced it many moons ago.

It was Seamus Brennan on a vote-buying scheme that removed the peak time ban, though.

Banjoxed · 10-02-2014 1:04am

MYOB wrote: »

It was Seamus Brennan on a vote-buying scheme that removed the peak time ban, though.

Pity it wasn't Noel Dempsey, as he would have delivered that in the same way he delivered a passenger rail service to Navan.

Emme · 10-02-2014 10:43am

The train is the only way some elderly people can get to hospital appointments or to see family members living in other parts of the country. The Waterford train is popular with pensioners. I've seen groups of ladies traveling to Dublin shopping and piling onto a peak time evening train laden with bags from various boutiques including BTs.

That's their business and they have every right to travel on the train when they want.

These ladies tend to be very chatty and one started complaining to me about overcrowding, delayed boarding etc. I said to her she might be better to get an off peak train. According to her all the Waterford trains are equally crowded at any time of day! I can't comment on that but I would believe her.

foggy_lad · 10-02-2014 1:08pm

Emme wrote: »

The train is the only way some elderly people can get to hospital appointments or to see family members living in other parts of the country. The Waterford train is popular with pensioners. I've seen groups of ladies traveling to Dublin shopping and piling onto a peak time evening train laden with bags from various boutiques including BTs.

That's their business and they have every right to travel on the train when they want.

These ladies tend to be very chatty and one started complaining to me about overcrowding, delayed boarding etc. I said to her she might be better to get an off peak train. According to her all the Waterford trains are equally crowded at any time of day! I can't comment on that but I would believe her.

So instead of the 4.35/5.35 or 6.35 they should wait around for the off peak train at 8.15pm which only goes to Carlow? There are no real off peak trains on the Waterford or other lines unless you are travelling against the normal flow, so these ladies should travel to Dublin the evening before and shop all night and get a train back to Waterford in the morning?

Mrs OBumble · 10-02-2014 1:27pm

Emme wrote: »

The train is the only way some elderly people can get to hospital appointments or to see family members living in other parts of the country. The Waterford train is popular with pensioners. I've seen groups of ladies traveling to Dublin shopping and piling onto a peak time evening train laden with bags from various boutiques including BTs.

That's their business and they have every right to travel on the train when they want.

Absolutely.

But I don't see why the taxpayer should be funding it when there are perfectly good shops in Waterford.

Emme · 10-02-2014 2:08pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

So instead of the 4.35/5.35 or 6.35 they should wait around for the off peak train at 8.15pm which only goes to Carlow? There are no real off peak trains on the Waterford or other lines unless you are travelling against the normal flow, so these ladies should travel to Dublin the evening before and shop all night and get a train back to Waterford in the morning?

That isn't my point. My point is that the lady said all trains on the Waterford are crowded regardless of what times they run.

cdebru · 10-02-2014 6:41pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

So instead of the 4.35/5.35 or 6.35 they should wait around for the off peak train at 8.15pm which only goes to Carlow? There are no real off peak trains on the Waterford or other lines unless you are travelling against the normal flow, so these ladies should travel to Dublin the evening before and shop all night and get a train back to Waterford in the morning?

Maybe a free hotel scheme is needed as well then.

Five ways to improve public transport in Ireland

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