Brake lights in the "overtaking lane", slow lane almost empty

the culture of deference · 25-09-2012 11:02am

corktina wrote: »

I was weaned on the M4 and M25 in the UK and they are many times busier than any road here, never ever had a merge problem.

Me too.
The standard of learner driving and testing in Ireland needs to be re-addressed. There is no point in having a road safety initiative when the test and learner lesson's are flawed.

You need to know how to control a car before going on the road.
Your lessons should include, wet driving, car control, Anti skid lessons, how to drive when it's -1c or under, also proper parking, lane discilpline, roundabouts, merging, tailgating, and motorway lessons. 50 hours of lessons should develop these skills.

Also kids nowadays should be shown the dangers of texting, phones and other distractions in the car. Accident scene pictures might make them more aware that they are driving a lethal weapon. Also Ireland has fcukall garda enforcement. I drove into celbridge last week at rush hour. The women behind me was yapping on her handheld phone the whole 10 minutes until I turned for clane. Speed camera's on Mways and duallers are a load of revenue BS.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

It's very rare to see an Irish person use the full length of an acceleration lane when merging, straight out into gap, even if they are doing 15Kmph less that the cars already in that lane.

In the UK on a 3 lane road, if you signal to move to the middle lane to overtake, traffic in that lane will move lane to allow you out. That does not happen here.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Your whole argument boils down to a fallacy. You can't convince a judge that you were not committing a driving offense by implying that other people were committing another offense at the same time. It doesn't stop the simple fact that you are the one in court and you did commit the offense.

You can.

You can ask what offense was committed. If a garda says you were undertaking then they would need proof. It would be your right to know the details of the car you alleg. undertook. You could also ask why the garda allowed the car committing the more serious offence to go unpunished.

Zubeneschamali · 25-09-2012 3:01pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

You could also ask why the garda allowed the car committing the more serious offence to go unpunished.

You can also ask what the Garda had for breakfast, it has just as much relevance to the case against you.

the culture of deference · 26-09-2012 1:19am

In court If a garda says you were undertaking then it would be your right to know the details of the car you allegedly committed the offence against.

Guy:Incognito · 26-09-2012 2:33am

GreeBo wrote: »

Joining the M50 @ Dundrum heading North the right merging lane is very short and shunts you out into traffic before you can get up to speed (its a hill) and before the approaching traffic can move out of your lane.
IMO this is what leads to most people driving in the middle lane.

Its over 600m any car should be well up to speed at that stage.

Most of the time the problem is that 90% of the cars mergeing all try to pile in to the right lane as if the left one dissappears off a cliff. The right lane at all the junctions ends farly abruplty yeat thats where the vast majority of the cars joinging the motorway choose to do it from. Bloody idiots is what they are. especially the ones that dont seem capable of pushing the accelerator hard enough to build up speed quickly. Honestly, where do they think the left lane brings them? Narnia?

TheChizler · 26-09-2012 3:04am

the culture of deference wrote: »

In court If a garda says you were undertaking then it would be your right to know the details of the car you allegedly committed the offence against.

Even if that's true in this case how would it help to know? You would still be the one after performing the dangerous action, the other person hasn't done anything outright dangerous, admittedly they would be annoying but that's where patience and self restraint should kick in, you're accountable for only your own actions.

Zubeneschamali · 26-09-2012 8:36am

the culture of deference wrote: »

In court If a garda says you were undertaking then it would be your right to know the details of the car you allegedly committed the offence against.

The Garda will speak first, stating that on such and such a date near Ballydehob, he observed you overtaking on the left. The judge will then ask if you have anything to say.

How would you assert this right exactly?

Hint: if you actually did overtake on the left, and you plan to admit it, the correct thing to say is "Admitted and regretted". Anything else is a waste of the courts time, and judges do not appreciate it.

the culture of deference · 26-09-2012 1:31pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Garda will speak first, stating that on such and such a date near Ballydehob, he observed you overtaking on the left. The judge will then ask if you have anything to say.

How would you assert this right exactly?

You question the garda after he gives his evidence. You ask what were the details of the other car, colour, make, model, reg. If the garda doesn't know the details there is no case. It would be a No order or Strike out.

Same as If the garda doesn't turn up for court

Zubeneschamali · 26-09-2012 2:30pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

You question the garda after he gives his evidence.

Before or after you tell the judge that you did in fact pass on the left?

Shane Fitz · 26-09-2012 2:44pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

the culture of deference wrote: »

You question the garda after he gives his evidence.

Before or after you tell the judge that you did in fact pass on the left?

I'm not going to quote all your posts, BUT are you stating that you must not pass on the left, and just match the speed of car in lane 2, or do a 3 lane overtaking manoeuvre?

Indricotherium · 26-09-2012 3:04pm

limklad wrote: »

They should be far more penalty points for failing to keep left especially on Multi-lane roads

I think it's probably much more important to enforce this on roads that do not have multiple lanes travelling in the same direction.

Zubeneschamali · 26-09-2012 4:03pm

Shane Fitz wrote: »

are you stating that you must not pass on the left, and just match the speed of car in lane 2, or do a 3 lane overtaking manoeuvre?

Except in the 3 cases listed in the law (and quoted upthread), yes.

And yes, people have been stopped and ticketed for it, and no, complaining about right-lane hoggers did not work as a defence in court.

To quote from the OP of the 2010 version of this thread:

Damien360 wrote: »

There was a case lately in leinster leader of a driver getting a big fine for undertaking on M7 and his excuse was the slow speed of the driver in right lane. It did'nt wash with Judge Zaiden at all.

TheChizler · 26-09-2012 4:33pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Garda will speak first, stating that on such and such a date near Ballydehob, he observed you overtaking on the left. The judge will then ask if you have anything to say.

How would you assert this right exactly?

You question the garda after he gives his evidence. You ask what were the details of the other car, colour, make, model, reg. If the garda doesn't know the details there is no case. It would be a No order or Strike out.

Same as If the garda doesn't turn up for court

Why would those details have any relevance?

Zubeneschamali · 26-09-2012 4:41pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Why would those details have any relevance?

The real trick is to say your name is The of the family Chizler, refer to the Irish version of the constitution, and state that the Garda was not wearing his hat when he stopped you.

GreeBo · 26-09-2012 5:19pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I second that.
When merging, being timid and un-assertive gets you nowhere.
Get a good run up the slip road, match the speed of the traffic and merge into it.
99% of people will accommodate you and either make a gap or move to lane two. As they're supposed to anyway, as illustrated by a recent RSA ad.
Some people will plow their course in lane one, or (my favourites) pull alongside you and match your speed and almost try to block you from merging.
Why they would do that is beyond me, but a quick dab of the pedal on the right will see me safely in front of them.

So you second someone forcing their way into a lane? There is no obligation to allow someone to merge. Often there will be someone outside you anyway, so you cant move to lane 2.

Someone already on the motorway and staying in lane 1 is not "ploughing their course". You are the one joining the road, not them. If that person is doing the same speed as you are then why wouldnt you, being the merger, slow down and merge in the gap behind them?

GreeBo · 26-09-2012 5:22pm

corktina wrote: »

It is ALWAYS possible to merge. You match your speed to the car you intend to merge behind, you position your self immedaitely to the rear of him, you indicate your intention and you merge. If the guy behind your intended slot doesn't take note of you, that's his lookout.Be positive. I was weaned on the M4 and M25 in the UK and they are many times busier than any road here, never ever had a merge problem.

So basically force your way in regardless of there being a gap or not. Force the car you are pulling out in front of to slow down or change lanes and "shure Im grand, feck the rest of ye!"
Nice.

Shane Fitz · 26-09-2012 5:43pm

GreeBo wrote: »

corktina wrote: »

It is ALWAYS possible to merge. You match your speed to the car you intend to merge behind, you position your self immedaitely to the rear of him, you indicate your intention and you merge. If the guy behind your intended slot doesn't take note of you, that's his lookout.Be positive. I was weaned on the M4 and M25 in the UK and they are many times busier than any road here, never ever had a merge problem.

So basically force your way in regardless of there being a gap or not. Force the car you are pulling out in front of to slow down or change lanes and "shure Im grand, feck the rest of ye!"
Nice.

I was always under the impression that if in lane 1 you are obliged to allow traffic to merge? It's the exception to yield to traffic on your right rule.

slimjimmc · 26-09-2012 6:21pm

Shane Fitz wrote: »

I was always under the impression that if in lane 1 you are obliged to allow traffic to merge? It's the exception to yield to traffic on your right rule.

You're under the wrong impression then. It doesn't matter if you're joining a single lane road, multi-lane road or motorway, traffic joining another road must yield to traffic already on that road.

For example a joining a motorway

When entering the motorway, exercise care and attention, and yield to traffic on the motorway. You must follow the steps below when joining a motorway.
Use the acceleration lane to build up your speed before merging into traffic on the motorway.
Signal early to other motorists that you intend to merge.
As you approach on the slip road, check in your mirrors and your blind spot for a safe gap in traffic in the left-hand lane of the motorway.
Obey road signs and road markings.
Do not drive on hatch markings before merging into traffic on the motorway.
Give way to traffic already on the motorway.
Adjust your speed as you join the motorway so you match, as near as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane.
Treat each lane change as a seperate manoeuvre. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to overtake.

TheChizler · 26-09-2012 7:06pm

GreeBo wrote: »

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I second that.
When merging, being timid and un-assertive gets you nowhere.
Get a good run up the slip road, match the speed of the traffic and merge into it.
99% of people will accommodate you and either make a gap or move to lane two. As they're supposed to anyway, as illustrated by a recent RSA ad.
Some people will plow their course in lane one, or (my favourites) pull alongside you and match your speed and almost try to block you from merging.
Why they would do that is beyond me, but a quick dab of the pedal on the right will see me safely in front of them.

So you second someone forcing their way into a lane? There is no obligation to allow someone to merge. Often there will be someone outside you anyway, so you cant move to lane 2.

Someone already on the motorway and staying in lane 1 is not "ploughing their course". You are the one joining the road, not them. If that person is doing the same speed as you are then why wouldnt you, being the merger, slow down and merge in the gap behind them?

It's not obligatory but it's considerate. When I see someone trying to merge I pull right if I'm able, it helps them out and prevents potentially dangerous stopping, driving in the hard shoulder, or moving in to a far too small gap. If I can't pull right I slow down to create a larger gap for them. Being considerate is good for your blood pressure and helps everyone get home calmly and safely.

GreeBo · 26-09-2012 9:01pm

TheChizler wrote: »

It's not obligatory but it's considerate. When I see someone trying to merge I pull right if I'm able, it helps them out and prevents potentially dangerous stopping, driving in the hard shoulder, or moving in to a far too small gap. If I can't pull right I slow down to create a larger gap for them. Being considerate is good for your blood pressure and helps everyone get home calmly and safely.

Indeed, and thats what I do.
but "you indicate your intention and you merge. If the guy behind your intended slot doesn't take note of you, that's his lookout." is not what I would call considerate (or even safe) driving.

the culture of deference · 26-09-2012 9:34pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Before or after you tell the judge that you did in fact pass on the left?

Why would you admit to the offense.

Zubeneschamali · 26-09-2012 10:00pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

Why would you admit to the offense.

So now you're going to lie to the judge as well as annoy him with irrelevant questions. This is going to go very well for you.

Guy:Incognito · 26-09-2012 10:00pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

Why would you admit to the offense.

So your going to lie now?

highdef · 27-09-2012 6:56am

Although I don't generally pass on the inside, the only time I have done so in the past is on a 3 lane road at night when I am trundling along at the speed limit in lane 1, further ahead I see a car travelling below the limit in an empty lane 3, with a corresponding empty lane 1 and 2. As I approach, I see no point in me making 2 separate lane changes from 1 to 2 to 3, sit behind the car pootering along in lane 3, indicate/flash/make him aware that I want to pass. If he doesn't move, I cannot proceed so then pull back into lane 2, just behind him and sit there. If he does pull over, I then pass, then pull back to lane 2, then lane 1.....4 maneuvers!
If had just continued on my merry away in lane 1, it would save me a lot of hassle plus there are no lane changes and no interaction with the other vehicle.

One other thing that I find odd about the illegality of passing on the inside: It's considered dangerous in almost all cases EXCEPT if you are driving on the Aux lane. If I am driving at 100kmh on the Aux lane on the M50 (for example) with traffic at a crawl/stopped/slower than me in lane 1, this is considered safe. What's not to say that someone in lane 1 will suddenly change from lane 1 to the Aux lane. In this case, I would imagine the driver moving from lane 1 would be at fault? But if it was lane 1 versus lane 2, lane 1 would be at fault

whomitconcerns · 27-09-2012 8:03am

I was home myself at the weekend, M50, M9, M7 and M11...same thing on every road....

So last weekend to see what happened I did the Legal overtake..

Me in my lane driving 100kph clear in front
Middle lane empty
Car driving 80-90 max in lane 3

I pulled over to the third lane and lo an behold he didnt get out of the way...so I sat there for probably 2-3mins and flashed him..he eventually moved...and gave me the finger as I went by..and then pulled straight back into the third lane behind me as I manoeuvred back to the left...after which he sped up of course...Home!!!!

highdef wrote: »

Although I don't generally pass on the inside, the only time I have done so in the past is on a 3 lane road at night when I am trundling along at the speed limit in lane 1, further ahead I see a car travelling below the limit in an empty lane 3, with a corresponding empty lane 1 and 2. As I approach, I see no point in me making 2 separate lane changes from 1 to 2 to 3, sit behind the car pootering along in lane 3, indicate/flash/make him aware that I want to pass. If he doesn't move, I cannot proceed so then pull back into lane 2, just behind him and sit there. If he does pull over, I then pass, then pull back to lane 2, then lane 1.....4 maneuvers!
If had just continued on my merry away in lane 1, it would save me a lot of hassle plus there are no lane changes and no interaction with the other vehicle.

One other thing that I find odd about the illegality of passing on the inside: It's considered dangerous in almost all cases EXCEPT if you are driving on the Aux lane. If I am driving at 100kmh on the Aux lane on the M50 (for example) with traffic at a crawl/stopped/slower than me in lane 1, this is considered safe. What's not to say that someone in lane 1 will suddenly change from lane 1 to the Aux lane. In this case, I would imagine the driver moving from lane 1 would be at fault? But if it was lane 1 versus lane 2, lane 1 would be at fault

the culture of deference · 27-09-2012 9:12am

the culture of deference wrote: »

Why would you admit to the offense.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So now you're going to lie to the judge as well as annoy him with irrelevant questions. This is going to go very well for you.

calm down guyzub this is a hypothetical discussion

lie to the judge?
do people hire lawyers to plead guilty in court?

you are innocent of any charges until proven guilty

Capt'n Midnight · 27-09-2012 12:50pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The real trick is to say your name is The of the family Chizler, refer to the Irish version of the constitution, and state that the Garda was not wearing his hat when he stopped you.

Don't forget to ask the judge if he's really a judge.
And ask for medical evidence that the guard isn't dyslexic
And bring in your cough medicine to show that it wasn't really your fault.
And a letter from the vet to show you were rushing a pregnant hamster to wherever it is you rush pregnant hamsters too.
And deny you were driving the car blame say you lent your car to Prawo Jazdy for the day.

Mint Sauce · 27-09-2012 1:13pm

So is there an definate answer on this?

I'm driving along an empty duel carriage way in the driving lane doing a steady 100kph, DC is empty in the sense that the only other car I can see through the windows and the mirrors is another car in front of me in the overtaking lane.

I'm still driving along steadily at 100kph, still in the driving lane, I'm gaining on the car in front of me who is still in the overtaking lane, still no other cars in sight.

I'm still gaining, still doing a steady 100kph, still in the driving lane, they are still in the overtaking lane, another few seconds I'll be by them.

So do I slow, sit in driving lane not undertake, and basically form a rolling roadblock, or undertake and risk a Guard in the next lay-by or on flyover pulling me for undertaking, or indicate right, pull in behind them, honk/flash till they move into the driving lane and possibly incite road rage.

whomitconcerns · 27-09-2012 1:37pm

Sadly yes you do the last option...preferably without the road rage...until Irish law provides for otherwise or enforces the law that's in place..

irish-stew wrote: »

So is there an definate answer on this?

I'm driving along an empty duel carriage way in the driving lane doing a steady 100kph, DC is empty in the sense that the only other car I can see through the windows and the mirrors is another car in front of me in the overtaking lane.

I'm still driving along steadily at 100kph, still in the driving lane, I'm gaining on the car in front of me who is still in the overtaking lane, still no other cars in sight.

I'm still gaining, still doing a steady 100kph, still in the driving lane, they are still in the overtaking lane, another few seconds I'll be by them.

So do I slow, sit in driving lane not undertake, and basically form a rolling roadblock, or undertake and risk a Guard in the next lay-by or on flyover pulling me for undertaking, or indicate right, pull in behind them, honk/flash till they move into the driving lane and possibly incite road rage.

Zubeneschamali · 27-09-2012 1:47pm

the culture of deference wrote: »

calm down guyzub this is a hypothetical discussion

Translation: I have no clue how a traffic charge in the District Court is actually dealt with, my legal training consists of watching two episodes of Boston Legal.

Mint Sauce · 27-09-2012 1:59pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Sadly yes you do the last option...preferably without the road rage...until Irish law provides for otherwise or enforces the law that's in place..

Well road rage would not be my intention, just getting by lawfully. But with the law thats in place it seems to be hugely differently inforced or interpreted.

From some of the interpretations, in my sinario, from reading some of the posts I would be well entittled to stay in the driving lane and undertake, as at no point have I changed my road position or my speed to get by them.

Alternativly, as there seems to be so many drivers who dont know how to drive around roundabouts or drive on DCs, why dont they change the laws to allow knowledgable drivers to get to where they want to get to safely, and with out risking breaking the ROR as above.

Seen a great example of both being broken the other day. Section of road national road turns into a two lane section for a 1000metre or so before a roundabout, gentle climb and after an entry road, regular lane markings seperating the two. I pull into the new clear driving lane now to my left to let a faster car coming up behind me by. they remain in the right lane, a few hundred metres to go at the get in lane signs I indicate into the right lane as taking the 3rd exit of roundabout. They indicate left, pull in to the left lane, and then proced to take to 3rd exit as well.

:eek:

Brake lights in the "overtaking lane", slow lane almost empty

Comments