Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Junior Cert Reform

13»

Comments

  • #62
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jam17032010 wrote: »
    I'm not sure if this will work for the new Junior Cert. They would have to have hundreds of these moderators on the go, checking assessments. To save on costs, I'd bet that inspections would be few and far between. When the new Junior Science syllabus came in we were told that inspectors would be calling randomly to check the Coursework A (10% of overall mark). In 8 years I have never seen one and Coursework A is merely a box ticking exercise where every student gets their 10%.

    i must be the only science teacher in the country who refuses to let students tick the boxes for the experiments they refuse to do/write up. So much so that the SEC has contacted me through the school in August the last two years to ask me to send them a fax/letter of confirmation for said students to say that they have done the experiments so the SEC can award them the full 10%. I have refused on both occasions.

    It wouldn't be such a costly exercise to have external moderators for schools. There are approximately 700 secondary schools in the country. Granted some are bigger than others, but even if one extern was assigned to each school to go through the paperwork and assessment in a similar manner to FETAC, it would probably still work out far cheaper than the cost of administration and correction for the Junior Cert in its current format.

    I used to correct JC Science way back when and there were at least 100 correctors alone for that subject. I assume that there are twice that number for English, Irish and Maths given that they are compulsory and have 2 papers etc.


  • #63
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Here's one for the conspiracy forum but bear with me.
    What if Quinns real purpose in pulling the SEC run terminal exam is so that they can increase the number of inspectors at LC. That would mean that they could shorte the correction period and lengthen the school year....

    NB This is just a theory-I have heard nothing to substantiate it :)


  • #64
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Musicmental85 wrote: »
    Here's one for the conspiracy forum but bear with me.
    What if Quinns real purpose in pulling the SEC run terminal exam is so that they can increase the number of inspectors at LC. That would mean that they could shorte the correction period and lengthen the school year....

    NB This is just a theory-I have heard nothing to substantiate it :)

    I don't think so. I wouldn't credit him with that level of intelligence. Also given that the government are 3 years into a 5 year term, i can't imagine he will be in Dept of Ed long enough to see it through. Doubling up the number of correctors, to half the time doesn't bring down the costs. Examiners still get paid per paper. There's still the same number of papers to correct.

    He's just copying the UK, and no doubt if I'm still in teaching 20 years from now I'll be looking at junior cycle reforms from the government of the day saying internal assessment doesn't work for the JCSA and there should a terminal exam set by the SEC.


  • #65
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    i must be the only science teacher in the country who refuses to let students tick the boxes for the experiments they refuse to do/write up. So much so that the SEC has contacted me through the school in August the last two years to ask me to send them a fax/letter of confirmation for said students to say that they have done the experiments so the SEC can award them the full 10%. I have refused on both occasions.
    Indeed and you're not the only one! I've never had the SEC contact me though - they'd get an earful. This means they're complicit in the cheating.


  • #66
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Pwpane wrote: »
    Indeed and you're not the only one! I've never had the SEC contact me though - they'd get an earful. This means they're complicit in the cheating.


    There should be some sort of sign off somewhere that allows a teacher/school to indicate that the student didn't complete the coursework, hence the unticked boxes.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    [...] So much so that the SEC has contacted me through the school in August the last two years to ask me to send them a fax/letter of confirmation for said students to say that they have done the experiments so the SEC can award them the full 10%. I have refused on both occasions.
    [...]

    Just to clarify... the SEC weren't specifically asking you to lie and falsely claim that they had done the work when they in fact hadn't... they were just making sure that the box hadn't been unticked in error!

    Is that correct?


  • #68
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Just to clarify... the SEC weren't specifically asking you to lie and falsely claim that they had done the work when they in fact hadn't... they were just making sure that the box hadn't been unticked in error!

    Is that correct?

    ya that's right, but it should have been fairly obvious. It wasn't like the student had ticked the first page and forgotten the second. Specific experiments out of each of the three sections were ticked. It should have been fairly obvious that only certain ones were done.

    The question on the phone to me should have been 'Are there boxes left unticked because the experiments were not completed?' rather than the assumption that my student forgot to tick the boxes.....


  • #69
    solerina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    i must be the only science teacher in the country who refuses to let students tick the boxes for the experiments they refuse to do/write up. So much so that the SEC has contacted me through the school in August the last two years to ask me to send them a fax/letter of confirmation for said students to say that they have done the experiments so the SEC can award them the full 10%. I have refused on both occasions.

    It wouldn't be such a costly exercise to have external moderators for schools. There are approximately 700 secondary schools in the country. Granted some are bigger than others, but even if one extern was assigned to each school to go through the paperwork and assessment in a similar manner to FETAC, it would probably still work out far cheaper than the cost of administration and correction for the Junior Cert in its current format.

    I used to correct JC Science way back when and there were at least 100 correctors alone for that subject. I assume that there are twice that number for English, Irish and Maths given that they are compulsory and have 2 papers etc.

    I dont just let them tick the boxes either..however Im lucky in that most of the students have them covered anyway (or can add in two non mandatory)..if they are short a small number I let them come in over lunch and make them up...but I wont just let them tick the boxes !!


  • #70
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    ya that's right, but it should have been fairly obvious. It wasn't like the student had ticked the first page and forgotten the second. Specific experiments out of each of the three sections were ticked. It should have been fairly obvious that only certain ones were done.

    The question on the phone to me should have been 'Are there boxes left unticked because the experiments were not completed?' rather than the assumption that my student forgot to tick the boxes.....

    Thanks for clarifying...


  • #71
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Simple JC reform
    Dump the social engineering subjects-CSPE/SPHE-Kids will grow up to avoid voting -eat and drink whatever they like-a class a week aint going to change anything but leave SEX ED-they listn to that .

    Allow Subjects with two Papers to do one Paper in second year-it can be supervised in house and sent off, Reduces stress etc Could be extended in other subjects that split easily.


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    solerina wrote: »
    I dont just let them tick the boxes either..however Im lucky in that most of the students have them covered anyway (or can add in two non mandatory)..if they are short a small number I let them come in over lunch and make them up...but I wont just let them tick the boxes !!

    Ya I go through all that as well and it's torture, it's only the last two years that I've had non compliance from a couple of students. And in the end I said to hell with this, I've given up lots of free time for this and they've been given every opportunity in the world and the same as all the other students and are still refusing to do it, so they're not getting the marks.


  • #73
    implausible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,937 ✭✭✭implausible


    External moderation is a must to avoid some of the issues raised above and then some:
    1. It would give some importance to the work done by students, if they know that their work will be looked over by someone else other than the teacher
    2. It would ensure a national standard
    3. It will reassure teachers in their marking and as to the genuine ability of their students
    4. It would function as a safeguard against grade inflation and teachers not marking work properly or taking shortcuts.

    Every year I go through the FETAC external moderation system and while it may be nerve-wracking at times, you get reassurance that you're delivering the modules correctly and confirmation of the accuracy of your marking. The extern does not mark everything, just a sample. There's no reason (other than money obviously) that an examiner couldn't spend the 3 1/2 weeks, that would ordinarily be spent marking, travelling to a school a day and randomly sampling and moderating work.


  • #74
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya I go through all that as well and it's torture, it's only the last two years that I've had non compliance from a couple of students. And in the end I said to hell with this, I've given up lots of free time for this and they've been given every opportunity in the world and the same as all the other students and are still refusing to do it, so they're not getting the marks.
    I think we all (science teachers anyway) get caught up in this, trying to squeeze the square peg through the round hole.

    I figure if we were setting the course and marking it too, that we wouldn't be so anxious to force them through - that we'd want to see them prove themselves and motivation to complete work would then be a factor in results. I'd certainly be putting penalties on late work without a good excuse, for example. This is one way that assessing our own students would be an improvement.

    On the other hand, I do know people who increase students' marks in house exams when they feel sorry for them.


  • #75
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,261 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Pwpane wrote: »
    On the other hand, I do know people who increase students' marks in house exams when they feel sorry for them.

    In some cases, a slightly increased mark in a house exam might be the difference between a child showing up for the real exam or not and I certainly did it myself on occasion (with the desired result) but as a general rule I wouldn't have done it.


  • #76
    RealJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet but has happened to me in one school was that the principal 'encouraged' me to provide as much 'assistance' to the third year science students as I could in order to maximise their marks in their projects. I doubt he's the only principal in the country who'd do this and I imagine that a lot of teachers, particularly those without job security, would allow their principles to be more flexible in order to ingratiate themselves with management.

    Clearly this would likely be a minority but I suspect that it might be a significant minority.


  • #77
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet but has happened to me in one school was that the principal 'encouraged' me to provide as much 'assistance' to the third year science students as I could in order to maximise their marks in their projects. I doubt he's the only principal in the country who'd do this and I imagine that a lot of teachers, particularly those without job security, would allow their principles to be more flexible in order to ingratiate themselves with management.

    Clearly this would likely be a minority but I suspect that it might be a significant minority.

    It can be an issue in grind schools too, mainly at LC level where they are selling themselves on churning out top grades and students have paid 7k to be there for the year. I can imagine that it happens at JC level too.


  • #78
    derb12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭derb12


    As a teacher and a parent I consider that the impartial assessment of students at this stage of their education is really important. It doesn't have to be 100% of their mark. It doesn't have to be in a terminal exam. But it must be anonymous and objective.
    Ruairi Quinn's mantra that the JC "is not fit for purpose" seems to just go unchallenged in the media, and any objections from the teaching profession seem to be generally regarded as teachers simply protecting their conditions and not based on the best outcome for students. This is truly frustrating.
    My daughter is doing her JC this year. She isn't a bad student but she has two teachers she "dislikes". All the mediocre grades they have ever given her have been like water off a duck's back. But when she got the same mediocre grade from an external examiner in her mocks last week she changed her tune! I firmly believe that she would have happily continued on to LC with the false notion that "Miss X has it in for me" or "Mr Y never gives As" if it wasn't for the objective assessment she got from someone who didn't know her from Adam.


  • #79
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Can anyone tell me has the TUI balloted yet??


  • #80
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Can anyone tell me has the TUI balloted yet??

    Yes, we got ballot papers this week about industrial action.


  • #81
    acequion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,908 ✭✭✭acequion


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Something that hasn't been mentioned yet but has happened to me in one school was that the principal 'encouraged' me to provide as much 'assistance' to the third year science students as I could in order to maximise their marks in their projects. I doubt he's the only principal in the country who'd do this and I imagine that a lot of teachers, particularly those without job security, would allow their principles to be more flexible in order to ingratiate themselves with management.

    Clearly this would likely be a minority but I suspect that it might be a significant minority.

    I wouldn't be too sure at all that it would be a minority RealJohn! If the pressure is on from all around to give good grades and the Dept, whose job it is to protect the integrity of the system,doesn't really care any more because external assessment is gone, how many teachers do you see sticking to their principles and not yielding to pressure? Can you say with 100% sincerity that you won't? Because I can't.


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    RealJohn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    acequion wrote: »
    I wouldn't be too sure at all that it would be a minority RealJohn! If the pressure is on from all around to give good grades and the Dept, whose job it is to protect the integrity of the system,doesn't really care any more because external assessment is gone, how many teachers do you see sticking to their principles and not yielding to pressure? Can you say with 100% sincerity that you won't? Because I can't.
    I'm permanent and teach more maths than science (and am one of the few qualified maths teachers in the school). I'm in a position to just say no (or if I'm honest, I'd probably agree to do it and then not actually do it, much as I did when in my above example). You're right though that there'll be more and more pressure from management to ensure high marks.


  • #83
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Ed Walsh and TUI's McGabhan on Newstalk breakfast this morning. If Ruairi Quinn is depending on Mr Walsh's debating skills to carry public favour, the unions might actually have a chance. His argument: teachers are all underworked, overpaid and (probably) oversexed whiners, dead set against change of any kind
    Q: what about concerns over assessment
    A: nonsense. Unions are bad. Minister is great.


  • #84
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    Ed Walsh and TUI's McGabhan on Newstalk breakfast this morning. If Ruairi Quinn is depending on Mr Walsh's debating skills to carry public favour, the unions might actually have a chance. His argument: teachers are all underworked, overpaid and (probably) oversexed whiners, dead set against change of any kind
    Q: what about concerns over assessment
    A: nonsense. Unions are bad. Minister is great.

    Ed. Walsh is a known teacher basher. Its telling that hes rarely asked for an opinion on lecturing methods in the 3rd level system.

    Tell him get back to his nuclear power advocacy job and stop the bandwagoning teacher bashing...its getting old.

    Again today George Hook called it spot on and stuck to the facts. Ruari was saying his door is always open for consultation... Hook says that he should have engaged in it first if that was the case rather than ramming it down everyones throats first.


  • #85
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    Over sexed? Really?!


  • #86
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    Over sexed? Really?!

    Ed Walsh is just jealous of our exuberant nature, he needs nuclear power to help him.

    I wonder is he any relation to that parent I had in giving out about teachers going off on maternity leave... Soo inconsiderate.


  • #87
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,971 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Ah here...I don't think anyone takes Ed seriously anyway. I think it's only Newstalk that have him on now anyway.


  • #88
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/parents-will-trust-teachers-to-assess-junior-cert-papers-30176134.html
    Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has ruled out any row back on abolishing the traditional Junior Cert, but he confirmed in the Dail that discussions are continuing about a system of external moderation of assessments carried out in schools, as a quality assurance measure.


Advertisement