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Forum Propaganda

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    #32
    Ben Hadad
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Ben Hadad


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    This is the politics forum yet it is increasingly looking like the anti-Israel forum or middle-east forum. I, or anyone else has every right to point out threads that are frivilous or redundant.

    This thread is not about the middle east or Israel.

    You are more than within your right to call this thread frivilous, however you will need to explain on what grounds.


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    #33
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Ben Hadad wrote: »
    This thread is not about the middle east or Israel.

    You are more than within your right to call this thread frivilous, however you will need to explain on what grounds.

    I didn't call this thread frivilous. If I had thought it frivilous I wouldn't have replied to Scofflaw. However I do think that some of the threads on the politics forum are frivilous and could easily be included as part of other threads or would be more suitable for AH.


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    #34
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    This is the politics forum yet it is increasingly looking like the anti-Israel forum or middle-east forum. I, or anyone else has every right to point out threads that are frivilous or redundant.
    I see what you mean I feel similar except it being anti-republican/anti Sinn Fein sentiment. The best thing to do is just argue your point as well as you can, see if you can change a few minds and try not to get too frustrated and just report posts you feel are particularly offensive or whatever. Personally I think this forum is not that bad at all, however it has a habit of degrading rapidly when/if the AH crowd arrive in.(no offense to those who post in AH, I do so myself, but you know what I mean)


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    #35
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I see what you mean I feel similar except it being anti-republican/anti Sinn Fein sentiment. The best thing to do is just argue your point as well as you can, see if you can change a few minds and try not to get too frustrated and just report posts you feel are particularly offensive or whatever. Personally I think this forum is not that bad at all, however it has a habit of degrading rapidly when/if the AH crowd arrive in.(no offense to those who post in AH, I do so myself, but you know what I mean)

    I know what you mean and I love AH for what it is but its a different beast to politics. And for the most part politics works great and I have no problem with the regular posters despite the fact that I may disagree with them radically, it wouldn't much of a forum if everyone thought alike.

    However in the last week things have gone a bit mental with lots of threads saying more or less similar things, far worse than the lebanon war or lisbon 1 or 2. I think theres very little chance of changing fundamental viewpoints on this forum but there is some middle ground sometimes but it can be a tortuous process to find it.


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    #36
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    BlaasForRafa, Fuhrer, knock off the handbagging, please (now deleted). More generally, if this thread turns into a discussion of (a) Israel, or (b) the Politics forum, it will be closed.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #37
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    I'm sure what the OP refers to happens, but usually they are easily spotted. I'd be surprised if just one poster landed along, there'd need to be a few posters.

    Actually, the only comparison I can think of is the Lisbon Treaty. Certain posters decided to come on here around the same time in an organised campaign. Was easily spotted and did their cause more harm than good, I'd say.

    Still, I think politics boards by their very nature attract people with one sided views. Take a look through debates on the Public Service, Libertarianism, Communism etc, etc. Some topics are just popular at the time, Lisbon, the Flotilla eg. and new posters are going to be attracted here.

    I always think a poster can be judged not, by the strength of their argument, that is a given, but by their ability to engage and address points raised by the other side and far more importantly, understand where the other side is coming from. That is very important and points out the posters the OP is talking about and a few others!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #38
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This is from last year:
    NEW YORK (JTA) -- As Israel takes to the Internet in search of innovative ways to make its case about Gaza to the world, Jews around the globe also are utilizing innovative methods -- and particularly new technological tools -- to explain what the Jewish state is facing as it acts to protect its southern flank from rocket fire.

    StandWithUs, a Los Angeles-based pro-Israel group, has established a round-the-clock Internet task force -- in cooperation with the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, Israel -- to monitor Web sites and provide instant responses to attacks on the Jewish state. Some 15 to 20 volunteers staff two situation rooms, in Herzliya and Jerusalem, that promote pro-Israel content on social networking Web sites, respond to online opinion polling and try to alter the tenor of discussions in Internet chat rooms.

    The group also has launched a Web site, HelpUsWin.org, that provides links to public opinion polls on the conflict, online articles in need of response and ideas to integrate pro-Israel symbols with profiles on sites such as Facebook. It also features pictures and videos that highlight Hamas' indoctrination of children and the humanity of Israeli soldiers.

    Now, that's from the site of the group itself.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #39
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    I think this issue comes back to a fundamental philosophical problem that has been running me around in circles for a little while now.

    Should we continue to tolerate the intolerant?

    In this case, we have a liberal attitude and want to afford everyone equal opportunity to voice their views. But what happens when someone decides to take advantage of that to wave a propaganda war?

    Already we stop companies from coming here to advertise and push their agendas. If a company like Blackwater or someone else hired a bunch of people to go around and post stuff on forums, I don't think we would like or tolerate it here. Simply because the people coming aren't interested in engaging in discourse but are pushing an almost fundamentalist agenda, the very aim of which is to stifle debate.

    But when we start talking about advocacy and pressure groups such as this, the water starts to muddy. It's just like religion or any where else where ideas of liberalism seem to almost be held as a barrel against the heads of those trying to defend these ideas.

    I've had a look at the BBC have your say forums a couple of times, and if you read the posts there you would think that more people support Israel's action than not in this regard. I found that very difficult to believe and I'm quite sure that this is the result of it being an important and influential site and it's been utterly flooded with Pro Israeli messages.

    This gives anyone coming there to read people's opinion on the issue a false idea, that a majority of BBC visitors are in favour of Israel's actions. Or let me put it another way.

    The idea of a government exercising editorial control over media and public discourse is a worrying one. When organisations that act in collusion with government work to further a particular governments agenda in this manner, I'm not sure there is much of a distinction.


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    #40
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    This is from last year:



    Now, that's from the site of the group itself.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Wow! :eek:

    It's funny but the more I research the history of this issue the worse it looks for the Israeli's yet they claim to be the noble ones.

    Then you see some of it's advocators sink this low needing propaganda teams to bully and annoy people round the clock who just want to talk.

    I've also been researching the end of the Apartheid & it seems that one of the main blows to this crazy rule was a worldwide boycott.

    It's shocking that this method worked so well & the current boycott of Israel may be a helping hand in ending the misery & death they have inflicted on Palestinian civilians & force them into peace talks that Hamas has continually offered to enter into. Might get Palestinians a more equitable share of clean drinking water too.

    All of this propaganda still doesn't change the rulings of UN 242 or excuse the targeting civilian workplace buildings as they worked without forewarning when you claim it to be the fog & confusion of war, or an accidental byproduct...

    Memnoch wrote: »
    I've had a look at the BBC have your say forums a couple of times, and if you read the posts there you would think that more people support Israel's action than not in this regard. I found that very difficult to believe and I'm quite sure that this is the result of it being an important and influential site and it's been utterly flooded with Pro Israeli messages.

    This gives anyone coming there to read people's opinion on the issue a false idea, that a majority of BBC visitors are in favour of Israel's actions. Or let me put it another way.

    not everyone in England is tolerating the untolerable, I think the BBC can be safely be viewed skeptically as regards this issue...

    info
    about
    the book version, (read the comments)

    It's a really good point about blackwater, if they even thought of propagandizing beyond the unfortunately already accepted form of public brainwashing advertising I think there would be public outcry, it seems in the current case that the every day reporting of the media is enough of an issue without focusing on the internet misinformation and confusion.

    I really do find it shocking to read scholars on this issue constantly stress that Israel uses the confusion & misinformation in their favour and point out how the issue is very simple when the lies are stripped away.


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    #41
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Youre gonna get more and more of this political shilling as the web goes on. A lot harder to police too. Financial shilling/spam is pretty easy to spot by comparison. Cyber wars wont always be fought with viruses, if at all. The media's the message and people tend to believe it.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #42
    Moomoo1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭Moomoo1


    I am almost convinced that the Israeli government coordinates those forum attacks in some way. I am equally sure that the Russian government has a similar 'hit-squad' of posters and bloggers, although they are obv. held back by the language issue.

    I am actually wondering how many countries have this. Eg the really bitter thread about cutting benefit to single parents on AH - were some people there for real, or were they 'planted' by the Establishment to propagate the 'everyone on benefits is a scrounger' myth? Or in the UK after 7/7 - it was amazing how the link of the bombing to the war in iraq was mentioned lots at the beginning, and then it just vanished. Or the yahoo comments sections keep being filled with trolls from the US pushing the fox news view of things...

    Many private organisations have this too - most notably the far right. Both they and the Israelis have a massive array of links under their control - youtube videos, articles on websites, news stories, quotes - you name it.

    I think the only way to fight fire is with fire. Gather your facts, store your links, remember which sites are untrustworthy or biased.


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