Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Do we need the Senate?

  • 04-06-2010 5:46pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 116 ✭✭


    As far as I know, the last time the Senate overturned a Dail motion was in the late sixties. Do we need it, and, if so, why? Some countries have abolished it and don't seem to be suffering. The political system we use was devised well over one hundred years ago. Is it time for something new? Has party politics run its course?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Better question: Do we need the Oireachtas? I think we might be as best off getting them all in there (difficult, I know), locking the doors and burning the place down.

    Then start afresh, and pick candidates we get to vote for randomly from the population.

    It'd probably put less scumbags and robbers in there than there are currently.

    The Senate is a useless talking shop that has no effect on legislation whatsoever bar delaying it a bit if it gets a strop up.

    Read your CSPE books we give to kids in junior cycle. It says that the senate is designed to be controlled by the government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    I'd be 50/50 on this one. We do need it as a check and balance on government but as government parties have a majority in the Seanad then it becomes kinda redundant.

    Still though I think reform of the Seanad is whats needed rather than Enda Kenny's soundbites about abolishing it. There are some valuable senators in there (O'Toole, Norris & Ross come to mind) and I think its important that they have a voice. However if that voice is powerless then the whole structure of the Seanad needs to be examined.

    The system of Taoiseach's nominees needs to be scapped for a start as its obvious now that its just used to pass political favours- this is evidenced by Ahern appointing Eoghan Harris in 2007- a deal was done pre-election when Ahern and Cowen made a dawn raid on Tony O'Reillys house in Fitzwilliam Square- the deal was that O'Reilly would call off the attack dogs (FF looked like losing the 07 election due to the Sindos frequent attacks on Ahern and his bank accounts) and Harris would duly get a Seanad nomination provided FF won the 07 election. Which he did.

    The nomination process is undemocratic and needs to be abolished asap. There is also a good argument for extending the university system to include more of them so the academics there are more representative of society as a whole.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 116 ✭✭ElvisP


    I think we've hit the nail on the head. Party politics, by its very nature, leaves us with politicians who provide jobs for the boys. Remember when Mary O'Rourke was unsuccessful in her re-election attempt? What did Bertie do? Appointed her to the...eh...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    The Harris nomination made me want to projectile vomit. He stuck his head so far up Berties' hole he could clean his teeth for him. That Taoiseachs' nominee rule should be changed, but of course it won't. They'll always need paid jesters/lackeys/ :mad::mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    In short, no. We definitely don't need the current Seanad, and we don't really need any Seanad at all, even if it was reformed.

    Ireland is a small (in terms of both area and population), unitary, mostly homogeneous state - no other country in Europe like us has a second chamber. Although, in theory, the Seanad is meant to provide a check on the government, in reality it doesn't - it will almost always have an artificial government majority and, at most, has a delaying power of a few months (or zero months for money bills).

    However, if we do abolish it, we must at the same time greatly enhance the powers and independence of Dáil committees. Committees in the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland - all unicameral) have great sway, and we should model our own after them.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    No we don't need the Seanad it is a luxury that we cannot afford. A nursery for wannaby TD's and a retirement home for useless ex-TD's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭McNulty32


    The senead......?, oh yeah, I forgot it existed, no we dont need it, a watse of time and tax payers money, just there to pad the wallets of those who were not popular enough to grace Leinster House.

    What purpose does it actually have


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,610 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    No we dont need the Seanad. We need a properly argumentative Dail, where its not a shock or horror when a TD dissents from the party line.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Better question: Do we need the Oireachtas? I think we might be as best off getting them all in there (difficult, I know), locking the doors and burning the place down.

    Then start afresh, and pick candidates we get to vote for randomly from the population.

    It'd probably put less scumbags and robbers in there than there are currently.

    The Senate is a useless talking shop that has no effect on legislation whatsoever bar delaying it a bit if it gets a strop up.

    Read your CSPE books we give to kids in junior cycle. It says that the senate is designed to be controlled by the government.

    Care to elaborate???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Sulmac wrote: »
    In short, no. We definitely don't need the current Seanad, and we don't really need any Seanad at all, even if it was reformed.

    Ireland is a small (in terms of both area and population), unitary, mostly homogeneous state - no other country in Europe like us has a second chamber. Although, in theory, the Seanad is meant to provide a check on the government, in reality it doesn't - it will almost always have an artificial government majority and, at most, has a delaying power of a few months (or zero months for money bills).

    However, if we do abolish it, we must at the same time greatly enhance the powers and independence of Dáil committees. Committees in the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland - all unicameral) have great sway, and we should model our own after them.

    Right you are so.....:rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Right you are so.....:rolleyes:

    What? Ireland is a unitary state. We're one of the most centralised countries in the western world, there's no denying that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Having genuinely looked at the supposed advantages and dis-advantages, I'm come to the decision that its no longer needed.
    Its just become a way of rewarding those that are in favour of the government of the day, with huge wages, pensions and perks. Given the productivity versus the exploitation and cost that is the Senate, its doors should be shut down for good.
    Callely will have done us a favour if his greed speeds end of the Seanad

    By Matt Cooper

    Friday, June 04, 2010

    INADVERTENTLY, Senator Ivor Callely may have done the state a massive favour. By his selfish actions, in what some would describe as giving a false address to maximise the amount of expenses he could claim from the state, he has emphasised the expensive uselessness of Seanad Éireann.

    Never mind the saving that would accrue from his claiming less expenses. He has drawn attention to a potential saving to the state of €25 million per annum that apparently could be achieved by abolishing the upper house; it isn’t just the removal of salaries and expenses for the 60 members that would help but all the associated running costs.

    No wonder Callely’s fellow senators are furious with him. The scandal involving his claiming of expenses since his appointment – note, not election – to the Seanad in 2007 has added significantly to already compelling arguments to do away with this unnecessary and expensive institution.

    The Seanad is full of has-beens and wannabes and is a vestige for disgusting patronage and a gerrymandered voting system.

    It is a retirement home for politicians who have lost their Dáil seats – such as Callely himself – or were never popular enough to get themselves elected. It is a stepping stone for those with ambition who think they can use it to raise their profile before a Dáil election.

    The patronage involves the right of the Taoiseach to nominate 11 members after each election and then to nominate replacements if any drop out. Bertie Ahern, as Taoiseach, rewarded Callely when the people of Dublin North Central rejected him at the last election and just two years after Callely had been forced to resign as a junior minister because it had been discovered he took free painting and decorating services at his home (in Dublin).

    The whole Seanad set-up is anti-democratic as it has an elite electorate, a subset of the entire electorate. If you are an NUI graduate you can vote on the election of a panel of three of your peers (I refuse to register). Trinity College gets its own three seats. County councillors all over the country are lobbied hard for votes. One Roscommon councillor recounted last year how he had received a free tie from one successful Fianna Fáil candidate (who owns a rural menswear shop) and discovered how all voters had received the same.

    The Seanad rarely overturns laws originated in the Dáil or starts its own bills that the Dáil endorses. And even when they do, is it worth the cost of having this talking shop? Add to this the cost of running the Dáil and you have to ask what sort of fools we are to allow the political class to indulge itself to this extent at our expense. The excellent thestory.ie website has established that between 2005 and 2008 our 166 TDs pulled in just under €100 million in salaries and expenses.

    What value for money did we get for that? The website also reveals that in 2007 alone former minister Michael Lowry, who had to resign when it was discovered he’d let Ben Dunne secretly pay for his house extension and who, we subsequently discovered, had offshore bank accounts he’d lied to the Dáil about, received nearly €200,000 in salary and expenses.

    Callely’s (Dublin) house renovations cost only a fraction of Lowry’s. Callely may now have to show that he actually spends his time in west Cork but his problem is that his website says he lives in Dublin. It also headlines him as senator for Dublin North Central, which is clearly impossible, but shows how he intended using the Seanad role as a platform for a return to the Dáil in his own constituency. So you’re paying to finance his career prospects too.

    Now let’s not just stop at abolishing the Seanad: let’s reduce the number of sitting TDs to 100 to serve a population of little more than four million.

    Source: http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/matt-cooper/callely-will-have-done-us-a-favour-if-his-greed-speeds-end-of-the-seanad-121473.html#ixzz0pyKPxzPs


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 ronan0


    The seanad is (supposed to be) a critical aspect of democracy, as conceived by Thomas Jefferson.

    While the main house (dail) is supposed to be entirely devoted to the representation of interest, through people duly elected to represent such interests, the Seanad is supposed to be devoted to the representation of opinion or the broader public good outside of individual or group interests.

    Opinion and interest are entirely different political phenomena.

    Since it is necessary that a true and real opinion be formed outside the realm of individual or group interest, Seanad members cannot be voted in by the general electorate, since this would abrogate opinion to interest. And the senate is meant to protect us from ourselves. Or take the heat out of the passions of self-interestedness and mass-mindedness.

    Jefferson conceived of the Seanad, because history shows that representative democracy can often become just as tyrannous as any dictatorship. The Seanad was designed to protect ourselves from ourselves. eg. if it had been functioining properly, it would have protected us from this property boom.

    I admit we've move far far away from the above idea... We need to sort out our whole thinking about politics and what our purposes and values as a society should be...

    Cull the whole lot I say and start again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭simonj


    Its current format is a rotton burrough system, with the likes Harris appointed for no better reason than clientism or sycophancy.

    If it is to be kept, then it needs serious reform.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Nope....But the govt yes... I have not seen enough discussion to answer yet. Sorry


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Heavily reform the damn thing.

    Take a look at the Following Websites !

    http://www.jamescarroll.ie/
    http://www.mariacorrigan.com/index.php
    http://www.ivorcallely.ie/
    http://www.francesfitzgerald.ie/
    http://www.senatormarkdaly.com/site/
    http://www.paschaldonohoe.ie/
    http://www.eugeneregan.ie/
    http://www.alexwhite.ie/index1.html
    http://jerrybuttimer.ie/

    Now Take Look at These Ones

    http://www.senatormarywhite.ie/
    http://www.johnpaulphelan.com/
    http://liamtwomey.blogspot.com/
    http://www.dominichannigan.com/
    http://www.senatorlarrybutler.ie/

    The former catagory all explicitly state that they represent a particular Dail Constituency. This is in spite of the fact that they have no constitutional mandate to do so. No constituent gave them authority to speak on their behalf, nor does the constitution bistow a right upon them to represent the voices of the constituency in which they live to the Upper House.. Effectively, we have people in the Upper House who openly admit to being glorified Town Cllrs, who are not interested in scrutanising legislation, but cutting ribbons and opening new buildings. These people conflate the role of the senator with that of the Local TD, and it articulates that they are only interested in getting into the lower house, and continue to proffer parochial interests there.

    The latter catagory do not reference Local Issues, or the fact that they represent a constituency on their website, and openly declare the panel on which they were elected. At least these people would seem to have a slight understanding of the situation, and what is expected of them in their role as Senators.

    This inability to differentiate the role of the Dail and the Seanad by virtue of it's members failing to adhere to their constitutional roles is the first thing which must be addresses before any further reform is taken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 ronan0


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Heavily reform the damn thing.

    Take a look at the Following Websites !

    http://www.jamescarroll.ie/
    http://www.mariacorrigan.com/index.php
    http://www.ivorcallely.ie/
    http://www.francesfitzgerald.ie/
    http://www.senatormarkdaly.com/site/
    http://www.paschaldonohoe.ie/
    http://www.eugeneregan.ie/
    http://www.alexwhite.ie/index1.html
    http://jerrybuttimer.ie/

    Now Take Look at These Ones

    http://www.senatormarywhite.ie/
    http://www.johnpaulphelan.com/
    http://liamtwomey.blogspot.com/
    http://www.dominichannigan.com/
    http://www.senatorlarrybutler.ie/

    The former catagory all explicitly state that they represent a particular Dail Constituency. This is in spite of the fact that they have no constitutional mandate to do so. No constituent gave them authority to speak on their behalf, nor does the constitution bistow a right upon them to represent the voices of the constituency in which they live to the Upper House.. Effectively, we have people in the Upper House who openly admit to being glorified Town Cllrs, who are not interested in scrutanising legislation, but cutting ribbons and opening new buildings. These people conflate the role of the senator with that of the Local TD, and it articulates that they are only interested in getting into the lower house, and continue to proffer parochial interests there.

    The latter catagory do not reference Local Issues, or the fact that they represent a constituency on their website, and openly declare the panel on which they were elected. At least these people would seem to have a slight understanding of the situation, and what is expected of them in their role as Senators.

    This inability to differentiate the role of the Dail and the Seanad by virtue of it's members failing to adhere to their constitutional roles is the first thing which must be addresses before any further reform is taken.
    +1

    It's a joke, really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭sickofwaiting


    This country is tiny, its smaller than dozens of cities. Why on earth would we need an extra 60 twats in the senate to run the place? We have about 60 or 70 more TDs than is needed in the Dail as it is. Fair play to Fine Gael for saying they will get rid of the Senate - they deserve to be voted in on that policy alone, shows they are actually serious about taking steps to reform the joke of a political system in this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I think its a good thing to have. Its basically a glorified debating chamber with no real power. I think their wages should be cut though. The thing is if that is removed would the Dail become much more caught up in small details(or would these be overlooked?) if all the debate was left to them? Personally I think yes.

    I imagine there would need to be a referendum for it to be abolished?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭youllneverknow


    didnt rome have senate?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    didnt rome have senate?
    Yes, interestingly the senate in the latter stages of the Roman republic lost most of its significance and power, people were "elected" because of their connections etc.... Quite a few similarities to ours actually with regards to the nepotism which took/takes place.

    Just dont expect to see Enda Kenny slain at the feet of a statue of Cowen anytime soon!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 539 ✭✭✭piby


    I'd keep the Senate but reduce it in size and clearly define its role. I know there's a lot of failed TDs in there just so they can get a regular paycheck but there's a few people whose voices are quite valuable in society. The likes of David Norris and Eugene Regan are actually very astute and honest politicians, the former as we all know is one of the most flamboyant characters to grace the arena in my memory!! It also needs to be given more power to fulfil its role. For example it is given the mandate of debating many ethical issues arrising from science and medicine (probably more valuable now that the Irish Council for Bioethics had been disbanded). But often they come up with reports that are just ignored and briefly looked at by TDs in the Dail.

    So I would suggest:
    1. Reducing it by half to 30 members
    2. End the system of the Taoiseach and co. nominating candidates
    3. Giving it proper power to fulfil the function it's supposed to (broad definition but you get the idea)
    4. Define the role of a Senator and make clear that they do not represent a constituency
    5. Perhaps, although how feasible this is I don't know, but only allowing independent politicians to serve on it

    I think Enda Kenny is playing to the crowd a bit with the notion of abolishing it completely. Who can blame him? It has become so inefficient and redundant in its current giuse that I'm not surprised he has popular support for this idea. But I still think it can provide a good public service if it's givent he tools to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Maybe FG or Labour if they had the courage, could hold a referendum on the idea (do we want it) when they get into power?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Biggins wrote: »
    Maybe FG or Labour if they had the courage, could hold a referendum on the idea (do we want it) when they get into power?

    It's one of the key aims in FG's "New Politics" policy document, and was also endorsed by Eamon Gilmore a few months ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,610 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    @MUSSOLINI
    I think its a good thing to have. Its basically a glorified debating chamber with no real power. I think their wages should be cut though. The thing is if that is removed would the Dail become much more caught up in small details(or would these be overlooked?) if all the debate was left to them? Personally I think yes.

    I imagine there would need to be a referendum for it to be abolished?

    Why would the Dail care less what goes on in the Seanad if it has no real power? The Dail itself has little power, given the whip system and the nature of our political constitution policy is debated and determined by the cabinet and only presented to the Dail for a rubber stamp vote. About as tense as these votes get is when some Fianna Fail TDs show up late, and are too busy having the chat together to figure out the right button to press.

    We do not need the Seanad. If there is to be real debate and dissent, then let it be done in the Dail.

    And yes, there would need to be a referendum as it would be a constitutional change to remove the Seanad.

    @piby
    The likes of David Norris and Eugene Regan are actually very astute and honest politicians, the former as we all know is one of the most flamboyant characters to grace the arena in my memory!!

    I dont think the Seanad can be justified by retaining it as a soapbox for Norris or Regan. I would prefer to see astute and honest politicians in the Dail, not in a powerless talking shop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    ronan0 wrote: »
    Since it is necessary that a true and real opinion be formed outside the realm of individual or group interest, Seanad members cannot be voted in by the general electorate, since this would abrogate opinion to interest. And the senate is meant to protect us from ourselves. Or take the heat out of the passions of self-interestedness and mass-mindedness.

    The issue, however, is why the Seanad hasn't screamed about corruption and sickening laws and policies.

    The reason ? Because scheisters like Ahern put his yes-men in there on a cushy salary as a favour, and the hands-off approach negates the checks and balances completely.
    ronan0 wrote: »
    Cull the whole lot I say and start again.

    Agreed. In fact, if there were no party whip there would be no need for a Seanad, provided politicians were worthwhile individuals who stuck to proper ethics and principles, and the long term good of the country and it's general public (and not the vested interests that donate to their party with nods and winks)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭Seloth


    Yes the senate should be restructured a bit more.

    An advisory bord should always be there

    As said above it should be as it orignally was designed..The Voice Of opinion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Seloth wrote: »
    An advisory bord should always be there

    Depends on what vested-interests or yes-men are on that.

    Remember Ahern's outright rejection of the facts re the boom ending.

    And Cowen's claim that they "acted on the best advice available" :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    The Harris nomination made me want to projectile vomit. He stuck his head so far up Berties' hole he could clean his teeth for him. That Taoiseachs' nominee rule should be changed, but of course it won't. They'll always need paid jesters/lackeys/ :mad::mad:

    Agree 100% with this. That moment alone should highlight the complete and utter pointlessness of the Senate in its current form.Yet another example of jobs for the boys.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    ElvisP wrote: »
    As far as I know, the last time the Senate overturned a Dail motion was in the late sixties. Do we need it, and, if so, why? Some countries have abolished it and don't seem to be suffering. The political system we use was devised well over one hundred years ago. Is it time for something new? Has party politics run its course?



    Reform the Senate - the manner in which it operates and its members ae elected (instead of it being merely full of people who didn't get elected; yes sorry Fiona O'Malley et al, but it's true)

    Get rid of the President - an office which has no function whatsoever as its position is superseded by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, by the various diplomats we have, and by both houses of the Oireachtas.

    And totally reform the Dail. It is a bit ridiculous that the leader of our country only received 19,000 Irish votes and... oh well, everything else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 Villa Limerick


    Emphatic NO !!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    I think the Seanad needs to be reformed, however without the Seanad, there would be no David Norris, and without him, there would be absolutely no representative for the LGBT community. The way the system is set up we could never get a gay TD because we don't have a situation like Harvey Milk and castro street where the entire LGBT community live in one place. Thats really the only merit to the Seanad system as I see it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭sickofwaiting


    I think the Seanad needs to be reformed, however without the Seanad, there would be no David Norris, and without him, there would be absolutely no representative for the LGBT community. The way the system is set up we could never get a gay TD because we don't have a situation like Harvey Milk and castro street where the entire LGBT community live in one place. Thats really the only merit to the Seanad system as I see it

    You have Emmet Stagg. Politicians should be voted in on their policies not on their sexuality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Not in it's current form, no.

    If perhaps the Senate could be reformed to act, as the American Senate can, as a forum of enquiry where hearing into the issues of the day could be held, that would be good. We could dispense with tribunals and just conduct speedy senate hearings where attendance would be mandatory and the findings capable of being passed to the DPP for investigation.

    I would also copy the American function of appointment hearings. Nobody should be appointed to a state board or directorship without a senate interview to approve the appointment and prove their worth. That could help eliminate a lot of party hacks on state boards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    conorhal wrote: »
    I would also copy the American function of appointment hearings. Nobody should be appointed to a state board or directorship without a senate interview to approve the appointment and prove their worth. That could help eliminate a lot of party hacks on state boards.

    Although I do admire the American model, it really only works in the US due to the weak party whip system there.

    No matter how the Seanad is reformed [if at all], the whip will continue to exist and party loyalty will be just as bad as the Dáil; meaning any appointment hearings would basically be a rubber stamp - something akin to legislation at the moment.

    The only way it could work effectively would be by having a two-thirds (or 60%, etc.) majority required, and by enshrining that into the Constitution so no government-of-the-day could change it at a whim. This could mean it could also be applied to the Dáil if it was decided to abolish the Seanad.

    FG proposed something similar to this back in 2008, with their Public Appointments Transparency Bill, which would have had Oireachtas committees vet any appointments to the head of statutory agencies (it was rejected, of course, though the policy still remains in their "New Politics" document).


  • Advertisement
Advertisement