Higg's Boson. Almost there?

Curly Judge · 12-12-2011 8:56pm #1

Maybe the Higgs Boson is about to show itself...see http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/108599-cern-to-announce-higgs-boson-observation-at-lhc

Have a look at the guide at http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/91482-what-is-the-higgs-boson-and-why-is-it-important-to-science

and the video clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RIg1Vh7uPyw

Just as well, I say.
The shock of a Higgs no show on top of FTL travel by those pesky neutrinos would have been a severe shock to the physics community.
Now, if we could just get the neutrinos to slow down a little bit........

Killer Pigeon · 13-12-2011 3:57am

Right, great stuff ... nothing more to discover in physics now it seems ... although there's that whole thing with those pesky neutrinos. So ... anyone for a pint?!

Curly Judge · 13-12-2011 10:47am

3.30pm this afternoon apparently is when they to plan to announce their preliminary findings.
A formal claim to have discovered it is probably months down the road.
Still.... exciting times!

brimal · 13-12-2011 1:57pm

Very excited about this

Here is live feed for anyone interested. It's starting in a few minutes.

http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/

Iancar29 · 13-12-2011 2:12pm

brimal wrote: »

Very excited about this

Here is live feed for anyone interested. It's starting in a few minutes.

http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/

Stream wont work for me

....

Is anyone else having problems?

riffmongous · 13-12-2011 6:07pm

No concrete evidence yet, only hints according to the bbc report.

Am I the only one who would be more excited if they didnt find the Higgs Boson?

shizz · 14-12-2011 12:49pm

"The Higgs boson is the only particle left in our understanding of particle physics (called the Standard Model) that we haven’t discovered"

What is meant by this? What about the Graviton? Or is this not in the Standard Model?

shizz · 14-12-2011 1:07pm

Also, just another question, how can we say particles that exist for only a really really really small amount of time, like the theoretical Higgs Boson, really exists and has an influence on the universe?

mickydcork · 14-12-2011 1:31pm

shizz wrote: »

Also, just another question, how can we say particles that exist for only a really really really small amount of time, like the theoretical Higgs Boson, really exists and has an influence on the universe?

From my admittedly limited understanding - the 'theoretical' Higgs Boson is needed to explain why matter has mass.

Seconds after the 'Big Bang' all matter was mass-less, uniform and evenly distributed.

Something caused some matter to become 'massive', ie to have mass. This led to matter coming together through the force of gravity leading to little clumps in the otherwise uniformity of the early universe.

This was essential for the formation of stars and galaxies and life.

The Higgs mechanism is the theory explaining how it came about that matter gained mass (through interactions of matter with the Higgs field)

The Higgs boson would be evidence of the Higgs mechanism. Thus discovery of the Higgs boson would lead to evidence of the Higgs mechanism, which would be a confirmation of the standard model of Physics, which would lead to a greater understanding of the elemental forces of the universe.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

shizz · 14-12-2011 6:24pm

Yeah that's pretty much how I understand the concept behind it, but I am just asking generally how something, which has to be created through extreme energy and last only for an extremely small amount of time, can have such an influence on the universe. Obviously it must be a basic part of particle physics and there is a lot more to it than I know.

Curly Judge · 14-12-2011 9:37pm

From:http://p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue10/Physics_10.htm

Without the full context of the theoretical models, all attempts to explain the Higgs field are simplistic, and yet, it seems important to grasp its meaning since this field is so fundamental to our physical universe. Here is the best layperson's explanation we have found, from a contest held in Britain, that places the Higgs field in a more "information-type" context.

Imagine a cocktail party of political party workers who are uniformly distributed across the floor, all talking to their nearest neighbours. The ex-Prime Minister enters and crosses the room. All of the workers in her neighbourhood are strongly attracted to her and cluster round her. As she moves she attracts the people she comes close to, while the ones she has left return to their even spacing. Because of the knot of people always clustered around her she acquires a greater mass than normal, that is she has more momentum for the same speed of movement across the room. Once moving she is hard to stop, and once stopped she is harder to get moving again because the clustering process has to be restarted.

In three dimensions, and with the complications of relativity, this is the Higgs mechanism. In order to give particles mass, a background field is invented which becomes locally distorted whenever a particle moves through it. The distortion - the clustering of the field around the particle - generates the particle's mass.

Curly Judge · 15-12-2011 12:21am

Leave it to The Economist to come up with a succinct analysis.

http://www.economist.com/node/21541797?fsrc=nlw%7Cnewe%7C12-14-2011%7Cnew_on_the_economist

shizz · 15-12-2011 12:51pm

Curly Judge wrote: »

From:http://p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue10/Physics_10.htm

Without the full context of the theoretical models, all attempts to explain the Higgs field are simplistic, and yet, it seems important to grasp its meaning since this field is so fundamental to our physical universe. Here is the best layperson's explanation we have found, from a contest held in Britain, that places the Higgs field in a more "information-type" context.

Imagine a cocktail party of political party workers who are uniformly distributed across the floor, all talking to their nearest neighbours. The ex-Prime Minister enters and crosses the room. All of the workers in her neighbourhood are strongly attracted to her and cluster round her. As she moves she attracts the people she comes close to, while the ones she has left return to their even spacing. Because of the knot of people always clustered around her she acquires a greater mass than normal, that is she has more momentum for the same speed of movement across the room. Once moving she is hard to stop, and once stopped she is harder to get moving again because the clustering process has to be restarted.

In three dimensions, and with the complications of relativity, this is the Higgs mechanism. In order to give particles mass, a background field is invented which becomes locally distorted whenever a particle moves through it. The distortion - the clustering of the field around the particle - generates the particle's mass.

Yeah that's a good explanation but I understand the concept of the higgs field. Im just wondering what's the explanation for how something that requires so much energy to exist can be said to have such an influence on the universe. I'm just wondering now because I've just taken it for granted up until now that they just do.

Curly Judge · 15-12-2011 1:01pm

shizz wrote: »

Yeah that's a good explanation but I understand the concept of the higgs field. Im just wondering what's the explanation for how something that requires so much energy to exist can be said to have such an influence on the universe. I'm just wondering now because I've just taken it for granted up until now that they just do.

I'm working on it now.
Should have it done by tea time.
See you in Stockholm.:)

antiselfdual · 15-12-2011 1:10pm

Basically we need to create the particle and study its behaviour as a way of studying the Higgs field itself, it is actually the field which has the important effect on nature. In the complete absence of any Higgs particles (which can be thought of as excitations of the field) the field still exists, has a non-zero value everywhere in the universe and interacts with various other fields (electron, W, Z etc) in such a way as to give the particles of those fields mass. But to learn more about the properties and interactions of the Higgs field we have to use the properties and interactions of the Higgs boson (the interactions of the particle are determined by the field, so if we know how the particle behaves we can say that the field must occur in the theory in such-and-such a way).

For a pretty good FAQ about this, try Matt Strassler's blog.

shizz · 15-12-2011 5:14pm

antiselfdual wrote: »

Basically we need to create the particle and study its behaviour as a way of studying the Higgs field itself, it is actually the field which has the important effect on nature. In the complete absence of any Higgs particles (which can be thought of as excitations of the field) the field still exists, has a non-zero value everywhere in the universe and interacts with various other fields (electron, W, Z etc) in such a way as to give the particles of those fields mass. But to learn more about the properties and interactions of the Higgs field we have to use the properties and interactions of the Higgs boson (the interactions of the particle are determined by the field, so if we know how the particle behaves we can say that the field must occur in the theory in such-and-such a way).

For a pretty good FAQ about this, try Matt Strassler's blog.

Thanks man, I'll get to reading it later.

valen · 18-12-2011 11:11pm

Usually they build a linear collider after they work out what energy levels they need to study in a circular one. Though, it's an interesting dance between scientists & politicians; "I thought you found the Higgs ?" - "Well, yeah but now we need to build a really big machine to study it properly".

John

Curly Judge · 29-06-2012 9:27am

Physics World is hinting that the discovery of the Higgs will be announced next week.
Fingers crossed!

http://clicks.dbg-i.co.uk/DC/ViewEmailInBrowser.aspx?646C76=313636383532&736272=$$E6GQaI2RkJvAEEE&66=30

MisterEpicurus · 03-07-2012 2:27am

Curly Judge wrote: »

Physics World is hinting that the discovery of the Higgs will be announced next week.
Fingers crossed!

http://clicks.dbg-i.co.uk/DC/ViewEmailInBrowser.aspx?646C76=313636383532&736272=$$E6GQaI2RkJvAEEE&66=30

It was found but they lost it - clumsy physicists!

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 1:02am

Announcement of THE Higgs Boson coming tomorrow from CERN, I'm surprised there's not more mention on here of it, its all over my twitter at the moment, i'm actually getting really really really buzzed.... This could be it!!!!!! :eek:

Peter Higgs is gonna be there ffs so this must be it!!
Anyone else gonna be following the live feed?

Link - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22010-birth-of-a-boson-the-higgs-has-more-than-one-daddy.html

im invisible · 04-07-2012 7:34am

is this live on-line?

the wonders of google

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/07/watch-live-higgs-talk/

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 7:52am

http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html

Any second now!

EDIT : I see you found it

quad_red · 04-07-2012 8:40am

Watched a few minutes of the presentation there.

I feel totally thick

im invisible · 04-07-2012 8:42am

and they didnt show the graph with the 5 standard deviations,

thats what it'd look like: ???

and this is what we have: ???

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 8:45am

Higgs confirmed, to raptuous applause!!!!!!!!!!!!
5 sigma so They're 99.9999999999% sure

I'm wishing I knew more behind the maths here

Simultaneously following relevent tweets from CERN and others, thats helping.

quad_red · 04-07-2012 8:46am

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Simultaneously folling relevent tweets from CERN and others, thats helping.

From who? Share!

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 8:49am

New Scientist and Brian Cox tweets being the most helpful

@ProfBrianCox , @newscientist

death1234567 · 04-07-2012 8:54am

Formal annoucement made in the last two minutes that they have "discovered" a new particle. No other details given, for now.

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 8:59am

"It's all consistent with a Standard Model Higgs at 125 GeV mass, but lots of work to do" - Brian Cox

"To conclude: Using just photon and lepton decays from CMS significance is 5 sigma for a #Higgs of 125.3 Gev" - New Scientist

"Ooh, we just got *above* 5 sigma - 5.1 if you add in the bottom quark decay channel. Exceeding expectations #higgs" - New Scientist

"RT @CMSExperiment #ICHEP2012 #Higgs seminar @CERN: Applause on the ZZ + gamma-gamma combination: 5.0 sigma!" - CERN

"And combined - 5 sigma. Round of applause. That's a discovery of a Higgs - like particle at CMS. They thank LHC for the data!" - Brian Cox

"In simple language, CMS have discovered a new boson, and it behaves like the Standard Model Higgs"
- Brian Cox

For those that don't have twitter

This is MASSIVE ^^^^

missingtime · 04-07-2012 9:43am

Brian Cox ‏@ProfBrianCox
So, in very simple language. ATLAS and CMS have independently discovered a new particle mass ~ 126 GeV which behaves like SM Higgs

CERN ‏@CERN
#ATLAS combined results give a local significance of 5 sigma at 126.5 GeV. Audience goes wild. “I’m not done yet, there’s more” says Fabiola

...

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 9:43am

"So, in very simple language. ATLAS and CMS have independently discovered a new particle mass ~ 126 GeV which behaves like SM Higgs"
"We are entering the era of Higgs measurements" says ATLAS - LHC has performed miracles beyond design" - Brian Cox

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 9:44am

Peter Higgs crying, more applause. What a day for science.

EDIT : Standing ovation and more tears from key audiance members

missingtime · 04-07-2012 9:49am

New Scientist ‏@newscientist
In #CERN auditorium, #Higgs (and #ATLAS and #CMS) receive standing ovation, applause won't stop.

wow...

bogwalrus · 04-07-2012 9:51am

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 9:51am

Feel so priviledged to be alive to witness this monumental day. Wow wow wow indeed!

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 9:56am

Peter Higgs himself is about to speak....

frozenfrozen · 04-07-2012 10:00am

Just got on and saw clapping and everyone stand up! Damn!

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 10:03am

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Just got on and saw clapping and everyone stand up! Damn!

I'm sure CERN will have it on their website soon

Amazing. What a day. The applause just kept going. Would have given anything to have been in that room.

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 10:14am

Press conference starting right now on
http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html

splashthecash · 04-07-2012 11:17am

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Announcement of THE Higgs Boson coming tomorrow from CERN, I'm surprised there's not more mention on here of it, its all over my twitter at the moment, i'm actually getting really really really buzzed.... This could be it!!!!!! :eek:

Peter Higgs is gonna be there ffs so this must be it!!
Anyone else gonna be following the live feed?

Link - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22010-birth-of-a-boson-the-higgs-has-more-than-one-daddy.html

Damn - I missed the live feed, does anyone know if the conference (the one with Higgs) is online anywhere to look back on??

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 11:25am

splashthecash wrote: »

Damn - I missed the live feed, does anyone know if the conference (the one with Higgs) is online anywhere to look back on??

Afraid i can't find it up yet. http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html is now showing a re cap of some moments from earlier, worth the watch till they get around to uploading the entire talk

EDIT : one small video up so far http://youtu.be/9qLwDV0HWmw
Not the best quality, I hope CERN uploads some good footage soon.

Jimmy Iovine · 04-07-2012 2:37pm

I feel stupid even asking this question but does anyone have a link that would explain the Higgs Boson in a more simplified way? I did Physics for the Leaving and, while it wasn't my strong point, I did find it very interesting and I'd like to learn a bit more about all of this.

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 2:59pm

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I feel stupid even asking this question but does anyone have a link that would explain the Higgs Boson in a more simplified way? I did Physics for the Leaving and, while it wasn't my strong point, I did find it very interesting and I'd like to learn a bit more about all of this.

Don't feel stupid, wasn't it Richard Feynman that said "If you think you understand quantum physics, then you probably don't at all", or something along the lines...

http://youtu.be/sU9Q1A6Y1a0 is quite good.
The book "An Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene is also great

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 3:50pm

UPDATE

CERN has literally just posted the talk in its entirety online here -
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1459604
Enjoy!

Jimmy Iovine · 04-07-2012 9:35pm

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Don't feel stupid, wasn't it Richard Feynman that said "If you think you understand quantum physics, then you probably don't at all", or something along the lines...

http://youtu.be/sU9Q1A6Y1a0 is quite good.
The book "An Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene is also great

Thanks for that. I kind of have a better idea about it now. I encountered some old friends from school, namely the neutrino and the quarks.

I'll have a look into that book. I enjoyed learning about physics. I hated learning the definitions but the rest was very interesting. I'd like to know a bit more about how the world works. It could come in useful some day.

SpaceRocket · 04-07-2012 9:45pm

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Thanks for that. I kind of have a better idea about it now. I encountered some old friends from school, namely the neutrino and the quarks.

I'll have a look into that book. I enjoyed learning about physics. I hated learning the definitions but the rest was very interesting. I'd like to know a bit more about how the world works. It could come in useful some day.

Glad I could help!

That really is an excellent book, I would highly recommend it and it is very accessible. Delves into a lot of interesting stuff that isn't covered in very much detail in leaving cert science, and way more. Mindblowing stuff.
Physics is fascinating isn't it

Jimmy Iovine · 04-07-2012 10:19pm

SpaceRocket wrote: »

Glad I could help!

That really is an excellent book, I would highly recommend it and it is very accessible. Delves into a lot of interesting stuff that isn't covered in very much detail in leaving cert science, and way more. Mindblowing stuff.
Physics is fascinating isn't it

Yea it's pretty fascinating alright. I'll be up in Dublin on Saturday so I'll have a look around for it. Thanks again.

profitius · 04-07-2012 10:44pm

What does the Higgs bosom mean in terms of future technology? Too early to say?

sink · 04-07-2012 10:45pm

It may be a stupid idea based on my own ignorance but is there any possibility that we may one day be able to manipulate particles level of interaction with the Higgs field i.e. change their mass? It would be extremely cool and useful. I suppose the only two answers I'm likely to get are that it is impossible or no one knows yet.

04-07-2012 10:56pm

sink wrote: »

It may be a stupid idea based on my own ignorance but is there any possibility that we may one day be able to manipulate particles level of interaction with the Higgs field i.e. change their mass? It would be extremely cool and useful. I suppose the only two answers I'm likely to get are that it is impossible or no one knows yet.

My first instinct is no. Compare the relation of mass and the Higgs Boson to charge and photons. Just because we know photons exist doesn't mean we can change the charge of the electron say.

Stheno · 04-07-2012 11:02pm

As a completely non scientific student, can I try to compare this whole theory experiment to toast?

I.e. a slice of white bread has 25 calories, but the mechanism of heating it through toasting increases it to approx. 80 calories.

So the energy transferred creates additional mass in terms of calories, as a result of the transference of energy?

However the sheer amount of energy the toaster needs to generate (in my example) to generate that amount of additional mass has not yet been quantified due to the amount of effort needed to reliably statistically compute it, and so the Hadron collider has replicated toasting the bread/colliding atoms millions of time to establish that?

I've a mild interest in this, but am no physics student

Higg's Boson. Almost there?

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