Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

eia340600 · 25-03-2010 6:59pm

Just to make a note on a point made quite a few posts ago..

The cost of building a tunnel wide enough for DART trains would be only modestly more expensive than one wide enough for a light metro.You simply use a bigger boring machine
This should have been done so that in 60-70 years, when there might be the capacity requirements, DART standard trains could be run..

Frank McDonald's idea to redesign the entire Metro is only ridiculous because of the cost involved.Not because the Metro has been designed correctly(because it hasn't been).

Vuctor · 25-03-2010 7:21pm

eia340600 wrote: »

Just to make a note on a point made quite a few posts ago..

The cost of building a tunnel wide enough for DART trains would be only modestly more expensive than one wide enough for a light metro.You simply use a bigger boring machine
This should have been done so that in 60-70 years, when there might be the capacity requirements, DART standard trains could be run..

Frank McDonald's idea to redesign the entire Metro is only ridiculous because of the cost involved.Not because the Metro has been designed correctly(because it hasn't been).

I think the cost of DART size tunnels is more than modest but again another post at odds with what actually happened.
The overall cost issue was so critical that on street at Ballymun was planned, and elevated at the airport about 15mins walk from the terminals was also the original design.
Fingal Metropolis had to weigh in with loads of money to even got it to Swords.
Many argued it was too much capacity as a Metro.

A DART from SSG to Balbriggan/Donabate proposal would have sunk with all hands lost.

Amtmann · 25-03-2010 10:13pm

If you don't mind there BluntGuy, Vuctor infracted for being overly abrasive.

BluntGuy · 25-03-2010 10:23pm

Furet wrote: »

If you don't mind there BluntGuy, Vuctor infracted for being overly abrasive.

Be my guest, quite frankly lol

That makes 3 infractions since joining less than a week ago. Not a good start.

That pointless argument was probably getting incredibly irritating for many people viewing this thread.

G_R · 25-03-2010 10:43pm

Vuctor wrote: »

I think the cost of DART size tunnels is more than modest but again another post at odds with what actually happened.
The overall cost issue was so critical that on street at Ballymun was planned, and elevated at the airport about 15mins walk from the terminals was also the original design.
Fingal Metropolis had to weigh in with loads of money to even got it to Swords.
Many argued it was too much capacity as a Metro.

A DART from SSG to Balbriggan/Donabate proposal would have sunk with all hands lost.

now your really talking through your arse

Can I call troll?

Steviemak · 25-03-2010 11:01pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

That pointless argument was probably getting incredibly irritating for many people viewing this thread.

+1 (without being rude:D)

Aard · 25-03-2010 11:49pm

I found the debate quite interesting. It was just the ad hominem remarks that were getting at me.

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 12:21am

Aard wrote: »

I found the debate quite interesting. It was just the ad hominem remarks that were getting at me.

It started off as a debate, as a discussion, but it was hijacked by rudeness and as you say ad hominem remarks, and it became apparent it was going no-where sadly. I still think Vuctor had and has valid points to offer, but the vitriol with which they are delivered is incredibly frustrating.

I mean, he might well be right. Metro North may well come in under 2 billion, but to suggest that it is "certain" and discredit all other opinion, yet offer no supporting evidence when asked continually is incredibly poor debating.

Anywho, it's dealt with now, so we'll just have to continue with the Metro North discussion and forget about the silliness that has dominated the last 2 pages or so.

fresca · 26-03-2010 9:13am

i remember being at a footie game once and the crowd starting singing "you don't know what you're doing..." at the manager on the sideline.
i'm starting to get that same feeling now!!!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html

The Green Party is to decide this weekend whether Government should cancel the metro project in Dublin, while the party is also to debate a demand for the property loans of all Oireachtas members to be declared.

Delegates are gathering in Waterford for the Greens' annual national conference this weekend, which comes after the party secured ministries for two-thirds of Green TDs in this week's reshuffle.

Four of the Greens' six TDs are now Ministers in Government.

However a number of contentious motions set for debate at the conference will ensure the mood is not just one of celebration.

One motion to scrap Dublin's metro north and spend the billions on bus transport throughout the country is proposed to be watered down by the leadership.

The party is also proposing new taxes, an end to the teaching of religion in schools, and a requirement that TDs and Senators be required to declare all property loans from financial institutions.

Son of Stupido · 26-03-2010 10:56am

fresca wrote: »

i remember being at a footie game once and the crowd starting singing "you don't know what you're doing..." at the manager on the sideline.
i'm starting to get that same feeling now!!!

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html

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More silliness!!

ciaran75 · 26-03-2010 11:46am

hi guys,

does anyone know what is actually happening with metro north now?

when will all the public hearings etc. be finished with.
any idea what the current timeframe before goes before government to get the final go-ahead.

Cheers,

Yixian · 26-03-2010 3:29pm

Why would a green party prefer masses of buses to an underground?

Many Green TDs have been supporting the metro project to ease traffic and congestion in the city centre and allow for more pedestrianisation.

If the Greens cancelled the Dublin Metro it would be single biggest disaster in HISTORY of Dublin infrastructure, about 100x worse than getting rid of the old trams..

This on the other hand:

The party is also proposing new taxes, an end to the teaching of religion in schools, and a requirement that TDs and Senators be required to declare all property loans from financial institutions.

I can get behind.

markpb · 26-03-2010 3:31pm

Yixian wrote: »

Why would a green party prefer masses of buses to an underground?

I wonder if it's a member of the Green party from outside Dublin who thinks the money would be better spent elsewhere? Can't be having the Dublin government spend all it's money there and all that jazz...

Yixian · 26-03-2010 3:36pm

markpb wrote: »

I wonder if it's a member of the Green party from outside Dublin who thinks the money would be better spent elsewhere? Can't be having the Dublin government spend all it's money there and all that jazz...

The EIB just agreed to put 500m euro towards Metro North, somehow I don't think they're going be happy letting that diffuse out into a few meaningless projects around the country.

markpb · 26-03-2010 3:38pm

Yixian wrote: »

The EIB just agreed to put 500m euro towards Metro North, somehow I don't think they're going be happy letting that diffuse out into a few meaningless projects around the country.

A lot of people who object to Metro North being built in Dublin would rather see the project cancelled entirely and EIBs money ignored than see it all going to Dublin.

spacetweek · 26-03-2010 6:05pm

fresca wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/green-party-delegates-gather-in-waterford-451427.html
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Pity they derailed (excuse pun) their other good suggestions with the ridic one about cancelling the Metro which is now less than a year away from construction.

dr gonzo · 26-03-2010 6:48pm

Sincere apologies to everyone for what will no doubt be a ridiculous question but can someone please give me a brief rundown of this entire project?

I know metro north is only part of it. Then theres mention of an interconnector tunnel and the dart being under the Stephen's green stop. Also the flash video of the MN line showed an extended LUAS green line going NW. This project seems fantastic but i just want to know for sure whats going on.

Cheers everyone.

EDIT: Actually, i'd be interested to know all the Dublin transport plans in case theres some outside of this specific project.

Irish and Proud · 26-03-2010 9:54pm

Maybe postpone (rather than cancel) the metro and get on with the interconnector ASAP. Also, the LUAS should be further developed with an extension of the Green Line to Finglas (entirely via Hawkins Street and Marlbourgh Street in order to avoid the future construction site of Metro North) with a major rail interchange at Liffey Junction. The Lucan Luas should be considered as the Blue Line with some possible modifications of the alignment - lessening the number of sharp curves, at grade crossings etc.

Regarding the Metro North, design work should not stop - this project should be ready to go in light of any reasonable upturn in the economy. The Metro West needs serious upgrading around the Clondalkin area. By the this metro gets underway, it will probably be required as a proper mostly grade seperated metro. Also, the current plan is to cut part of the R113 (north of Newlands X) down to 6.5m in width - not acceptable on a major cross route IMO. The alignment of the Metro West with all the at-grade crossings is not acceptable - they might as well build a LUAS line instead. As for the interchange with the proposed Dart 2 line, it's seems cheap and cheerful with another narrowing of the R113 and a sub-standard interchange for passengers transferring between the Metro West and Dart 2.

Regards!

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 10:36pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Maybe postpone (rather than cancel) the metro and get on with the interconnector ASAP. Also, the LUAS should be further developed with an extension of the Green Line to Finglas (entirely via Hawkins Street and Marlbourgh Street in order to avoid the future construction site of Metro North) with a major rail interchange at Liffey Junction. The Lucan Luas should be considered as the Blue Line with some possible modifications of the alignment - lessening the number of sharp curves, at grade crossings etc.

I would honestly question the viability of the Lucan Luas. I mean, I haven't done quite enough research into that project to really be able to speak with too much confidence, but, with competitive bus options, and considering the alignment, which as you say has quite the number of sharp curves and at grade crossings, it might not be the best use of our limited cash.

Regarding the Metro North, design work should not stop - this project should be ready to go in light of any reasonable upturn in the economy. The Metro West needs serious upgrading around the Clondalkin area. By the this metro gets underway, it will probably be required as a proper mostly grade seperated metro. Also, the current plan is to cut part of the R113 (north of Newlands X) down to 6.5m in width - not acceptable on a major cross route IMO. The alignment of the Metro West with all the at-grade crossings is not acceptable - they might as well build a LUAS line instead. As for the interchange with the proposed Dart 2 line, it's seems cheap and cheerful with another narrowing of the R113 and a sub-standard interchange for passengers transferring between the Metro West and Dart 2.

It's not a Metro, it's Luas, blatantly. The RPA website even says it will be developed similar to Luas, at least initially. I really don't think the project is much of a runner, it looks like one of those routes that looks great on paper, but its actual use is highly questionable.

I would not cancel Metro North at this stage either, too much money has gone into it, and it will make our ability to attract good international bids for tenders much harder in the future if we cancel the project now.

BluntGuy · 26-03-2010 10:48pm

dr gonzo wrote: »

Sincere apologies to everyone for what will no doubt be a ridiculous question but can someone please give me a brief rundown of this entire project?

I know metro north is only part of it. Then theres mention of an interconnector tunnel and the dart being under the Stephen's green stop. Also the flash video of the MN line showed an extended LUAS green line going NW. This project seems fantastic but i just want to know for sure whats going on.

While I'm not a big fan of this site, http://www.transport21.ie outlines many of the basics in a decent enough manner.

The major elements of the Dublin transport public transport development:

-> Metro North - a 19 km "Metro" line running from St.Stephen's Green to north of Swords. It will include stops at locations such as Dublin Airport, DCU, Mater Hospital and Ballymun. Approximately half the line will be in tunnel (between St.Stephen's Green and north of Ballymun, and underneath the Airport).

-> DART Underground or Interconnector - the actual name of the project comes from 7.5 km underground DART standard tunnel that will be constructed between Inchicore and the Docklands. It will have underground stations at Hueston, Christchurch, St. Stephen's Green, Pearse and Docklands. It will run underneath the new Metro line at St.Stephen's Green, thus providing an interchange (also with the Luas Line). Eventually, this, combined with 800 million euro of new rolling stock and electrification of lines leading into Dublin, will leave Dublin with two DART lines as opposed to the current one DART line. This link provides a video as well as information explaining the project.

-> Luas Line BXD - this will extend the Green Luas, as you said North West, so as to provide interchange with the Luas Red Line.

-> Luas Line B1 - this extends to Luas Green Line by 7.5 km towards Cherrywood. It will be complete this year.

-> Luas Line B2 - this will further extend the Luas Green Line to provide a branch to the south of the city and a branch to interchange with DART services at Bray.

I can't remember the other projects off the top of my head, I know there's an extension of the Red Line towards City West under construction, I know the extension of the Red Line to The Point opened last year and there's another Light Rail project called "Metro West" proposed. The Transport21 site has all of these mentioned.

Carawaystick · 27-03-2010 12:27am

BluntGuy wrote: »

I would honestly question the viability of the Lucan Luas. I mean, I haven't done quite enough research into that project to really be able to speak with too much confidence, but, with competitive bus options, and considering the alignment, which as you say has quite the number of sharp curves and at grade crossings, it might not be the best use of our limited cash.

If the Interconnector was built and there was reliable frequent darts from Adamstown to Dublin and Darts from Clonsilla/Maynooth to Dublin, then a high frequency bus service serving a new road from Clonsilla to Adamstown through lucan would be much better money spent than a luas in parallel with two heavy rail lines.

This needs quality roads to be built between Lucan and Clonsilla/Blanch, instead of the goat tracks there now.
But these are needed now anyway.

Yixian · 27-03-2010 11:16am

Both the interconnector and Metro North are described as "high frequency", I take that to mean that there'll be a train every few minutes in the city centre at least.

murphaph · 28-03-2010 3:25pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the Interconnector was built and there was reliable frequent darts from Adamstown to Dublin and Darts from Clonsilla/Maynooth to Dublin, then a high frequency bus service serving a new road from Clonsilla to Adamstown through lucan would be much better money spent than a luas in parallel with two heavy rail lines.

This needs quality roads to be built between Lucan and Clonsilla/Blanch, instead of the goat tracks there now.
But these are needed now anyway.

Said the exact same thing years ago and stand by it. Lucan Luas is a monumental waste of money for West Dublin. The DART will kick it's arse in journey time. The focus for West Dublin (in a scenario where we have the DART Underground resulting in high frequency DARTs up and running) should be north-south ROAD improvements to allow buses bring people to and from the railheads at Porterstown,Clonsilla, Lucan North (station should be reopened), Adamstown, Kishoge etc. and on to Luas Red line (Saggart Area). The biggest missing piece is a new Liffey crossing near Lucan. 2 or three HIGH QUALITY parallel north-south bus routes running Blanch-Saggart (ish) woould do immensely more for Lucan than the sh!tty Luas as proposed.

Craig Fay · 28-03-2010 3:40pm

From the Green Party convention.

Delegates voted against a motion calling for the cancellation of the Metro North project in favour of enhancing Ireland's bus service. The party's Oireachtas group put forward an amended motion in favour of continued funding for an integrated transport network including the Metro North Project. Speaking in favour of the original motion, Gary Fitzgerald from Dublin Central said the Metro project would be an enormous drain on the State's resources at a time when Dublin Bus was seeing continued cutbacks. He said this was one of the key issues on which the party's candidates were 'hammered' on the doorsteps in the last local elections. He said in the current era of austerity, it was necessary to prioritise projects that would bring immediate impact. Speaking for the amended motion, Ciarán Cuffe said misleading figures were being bandied about in relation to the Metro North project. He said a large portion of the funding came from the private sector and it was not as simple as switching funds between projects. Metro North was, he said, a long term project that is almost ready to go after years of planning.
Minister Eamon Ryan, supporting his Oireachtas colleague, urged members to vote for buses and Metro. The convention voted in favour of the amendment and the amended motion.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0328/greens.html

Sponge Bob · 28-03-2010 4:32pm

Craig Fay wrote: »

Ciaran Cuffe said

Ciarán Cuffe , the Beachmaster.

Typewriter · 30-03-2010 1:02pm

Saw this posted on archiseek.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gTUKjTIeSg

Very fascinating.

petronius · 04-04-2010 8:46pm

My thoughts on Metro North are it is a good idea, it will have to be done at some stage.
A rail link to the airport is essential for the city
it needs to be linked to other infranstructure
- DCU
- Population centres Drumcondra / Ballymun Swords
- Norther Rail line Donabate/malahide or somewhere similar
- Luas at stephens green
- Luas at o'connell st
- Mater Hospital
- link to the DART interconnnector when that appears

Yixian · 04-04-2010 11:03pm

The DCU and Mater stations will be built into the campus and as an underground floor of the hospital, respectively.

etchyed · 05-04-2010 12:26am

Yixian wrote: »

The DCU and Mater stations will be built into the campus and as an underground floor of the hospital, respectively.

The DCU stop is just outside the campus.

Yixian · 05-04-2010 1:05am

My bad!

spacetweek · 20-04-2010 3:07pm

petronius wrote: »

My thoughts on Metro North are it is a good idea, it will have to be done at some stage.
A rail link to the airport is essential for the city
it needs to be linked to other infranstructure
- DCU
- Population centres Drumcondra / Ballymun Swords
- Norther Rail line Donabate/malahide or somewhere similar
- Luas at stephens green
- Luas at o'connell st
- Mater Hospital
- link to the DART interconnnector when that appears

It is going to link to all of the things you've mentioned, except your Donabate idea, which is a good one, but was voted down recently by Fingal unfortunately.

Colmgogan · 21-04-2010 5:18pm

As I see it the whole Dublin Transport system needs a fundamental overhaul.
Yes the proposals are a start, i.e. the interconnector tunnel, Metro North Luas lines etc. however there are a number of flaws I see with each proposal. Namely!

1. Metro West should really extend East from the Dardistown stop to interchange with the new Clongriffin or Portmarnock stations to allow Northern line users access the metro west / metro north, this would add considerable patronage to both lines and improve access to the airport.

2. The New bridge across the Liffey to accommodate the metro west should be designed to cater for both metro & vehicles. I can't understand why Fingal / South Dublin coco and the RPA can't get together on this. A new bridge would effectively by-pass Lucan village and connect two parts of the city. Although the government are probably against anything that may reduce revenue on the M50 seeing as how they spend 600M buying it a few years ago. Whose fault is that though?

3. The metro west should be extended from Tallaght east to connect to either the Luas green line or the dart in Bray / Dun Laoghaire

4. The Metro North should be extended south through Rathmines / Terenure area of the city. This part of the city is void of a good reliable public transport mode. When they have the TBM in the ground it should not be stopped! Imagine when they do decide to do this in 5 years time, St Stephens Green will have to be dug up again no doubt! Ridiculous!!!

5. We should be given assurances from IE that trains in the interconector will run without the need for a timetable. i.e. every few minutes, however I don't understand how this can be the case given that train exiting the portal north of the docklands station will have to share track with Drogheda / Dundalk / Belfast trains. Therefore I can't see how trains will be able run in the interconnector every few minutes. Building the interconnector at such a cost and then requiring a degree in timetable reading will not entice Joe public to use it.

6. I still cannot figure out why the Phoenix Park tunnel can not be used to connect Connolly & Heuston stations. New stations could be built serving the Phoenix Park / Cabra / Phibsborough / Fairview. Also a transfer station could be built on Ossory Rd to change between Northern Line and Maynooth Line.

7. IE and Dublin bus need to run trains/ buses on clock-faces i.e. without the need for timetables, where trains run every hour / half hour / 1/4hour as required. This is required on Both proposed DART lines. Not requiring timetables will make public transport a more desirable transport choice for all, in the same way that the Luas is run. Stations on IE's network need to come up to similar standards as Luas stations, with adequate customer information / signage etc. I simply don't trust IE to perform this most basic task.

8. Commuter trains need to be electrified as soon as possible.

9. The Lucan Luas line should not terminate in College Green, but continue that tiny bit extra to Pearse St station. IE are anticipating that this will become a major hub, therefore not having it connect with the Luas network is an extreme oversight.

10. The BDX line to joint the green and red Luas lines is a great idea, however I think they have missed an opportunity to provide a station close to Tara St station. The line will travel south along Marlborough St across the Liffey and into Hawkin st. Why not put a stop on Hawkin st so patrons can interchange between Luas and Tara St station. Otherwise the walk to Tara st from the proposed stops on Marlborough st or Trinity becomes quite long, particularly in winter weather.

Without doing these few minor things you may as well not even try! These few items are crucial in developing an integrated public transport system that can be used.
The customer should always come first, something IE really need to learn! Perhaps one integrated transport body for Dublin might finally knock them off their perch.
These are but a few of my observations, I wont even get into integrated ticketing and Dublin Bus Routes as I might not be able to stop.

FreudianSlippers · 21-04-2010 6:24pm

Colmgogan wrote: »

As I see it the whole Dublin Transport system needs a fundamental overhaul.
Yes the proposals are a start, i.e. the interconnector tunnel, Metro North Luas lines etc. however there are a number of flaws I see with each proposal. Namely! [...]

I cannot agree with you more. I think it is ridiculous that the lines were not made originally to interconnect with eachother and other services. All rail should have a connection point so that you can take the Luas to the Metro to the Dart and not have to walk to or take a bus.
The Phoenix Park tunnel is a waste at the moment and using that line for Luas or Metro would be a boom to the city and to Phibsboro/Cabra!
Literally EVERY one of these points is spot on. Plus one more... INTEGRATED TICKETING!

leshamry · 24-04-2010 8:19am

I think the North Koreans are better architects at metro stations and many of the eastern bloc countries. Ireland needs to lift it's game. Many of the new roads and pedestrian bridges in this country are more attractive than any of the metro stations proposed. It says a lot...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/2461290158/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mfi/273474230/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47550992@N08/4364568251/?likes_hd=1

G_R · 24-04-2010 12:53pm

leshamry wrote: »

I think the North Koreans are better architects at metro stations and many of the eastern bloc countries. Ireland needs to lift it's game. Many of the new roads and pedestrian bridges in this country are more attractive than any of the metro stations proposed. It says a lot...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytripsmypics/2461290158/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mfi/273474230/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47550992@N08/4364568251/?likes_hd=1

Don't want to drag this off topic, but if i remember correctly, I saw a documentary online about North Korea recently, and the makers said that although Pyongyang has got a Metro, there is only 3 stations that people from outside the country are allowed to see. These three are big open and spacious. The other 12 or 14 stops are small pokey things.

oddiot · 24-04-2010 12:59pm

Colmgogan wrote: »

6. I still cannot figure out why the Phoenix Park tunnel can not be used to connect Connolly & Heuston stations. New stations could be built serving the Phoenix Park / Cabra / Phibsborough / Fairview. Also a transfer station could be built on Ossory Rd to change between Northern Line and Maynooth Line.

I believe Connolly and the loop line bridge between Connolly and Tara St. are the bottlenecks that makes this unworkable. They just can't take any more trains in the peak.

leshamry · 25-04-2010 1:49pm

dannym08 wrote: »

there is only 3 stations that people from outside the country are allowed to see

There are 3 colors in the Irish flag;)

Empire o de Sun · 25-04-2010 4:24pm

Came across this :rolleyes:

spacetweek · 06-05-2010 5:11pm

Loving N.Korea's metro station names:

"Fields Billowing with Golden Ears of Crops"

Cool Mo D · 07-05-2010 11:55am

oddiot wrote: »

I believe Connolly and the loop line bridge between Connolly and Tara St. are the bottlenecks that makes this unworkable. They just can't take any more trains in the peak.

It's not just that - the loop line could be resignalled to take a lot more trains then it does.

Problems with using the Phoenix park tunnel over the Interconnector:
There would be a big imbalance of trains between North and South. Going south, everything would head to Bray, with room for a few trains per hour to turn back at Grand Canal Dock. But trains heading north would have to serve Hazelhatch, Maynooth, Pace park and ride, Malahide, Drogheda, and Howth. That's 5 northern termini to one southern one - it would be very hard to provide an efficient services to places north of Connolly with trains only coming from the south part of the current Dart line. Trains can terminate at Pearse and Dun Laoghaire, but they need to cross trains going the other way to do it, which reduces capacity.

The Phoenix park tunnel does not solve the current problem of trains from different places blocking each other. It is hard to increase the number of trains on the Maynooth line without affecting the DART, since they both need to get to the same platforms in Connolly. The Interconnector would solve this.

The phoenix park tunnel is very indirect - it is only 3km from Heuston to Connolly along the road, but the Phoenix Park tunnel route is almost 7km, along winding track, which means quite long journey times from Heuston to Connolly.

The Phoenix park tunnel does not serve the city centre.

Advantages of the Interconnector
-Serves the south city centre, and central office area, which is very busy, and does not have great rail based transport now.

-Enables a proper flow of DART traffic. Two North-South lines criss-crossing the city means a better balance of DART traffic, and more efficient services.

-Links up all forms of public transport in Dublin. The Bus, the Luas, the DART,a nd the planned metro would have far, far better connections with the Interconnector.

-Provides plenty of capacity for the future. With two high-capacity lines running through the city centre, it means that it would be possible to extend the DART to new parts of the city without much trouble (i.e. digging up central Dublin) long into the future.

I do agree though, that the Loop line is terribly underused - it should be used to send commuter trains currently terminating in Heuston to the Docklands. It would require some track changes, but would be a big improvement on what happens now.

Colmgogan · 07-05-2010 12:34pm

oddiot wrote: »

I believe Connolly and the loop line bridge between Connolly and Tara St. are the bottlenecks that makes this unworkable. They just can't take any more trains in the peak.

I'm sorry I might have been slightly misunderstood here.
What I was trying to say was that trains coming from Heuston through the Phoenix park tunnel towards Connolly could stop at a new stop at Ossory Rd beneath the Northern Line where the two lines are grade separated. A pedestrian link between this stop, Fairview and Connolly stations could be made in a similar style to London where there is a certain amount of walking between stations required. This is a distance of only 400 meters. The Train would then go on to terminate in the Docklands Station (some minor track alteration would be required)
This would prevent congestion between the two lines and avoid the need for the loop line bridge to be used by Heuston trains. It would also create a chance to open new stations in Phoenix PArk, Cabra, Phibsborogh etc. I agree it is not the final answer but it could be done as a stop gap measure, by the looks of it were not getting the interconnector until 2018 which is absurd!

Pete_Cavan · 07-05-2010 2:15pm

Is the line you are talking about coming from the Phoenix Park Tunnel part of the track that runs along Whitworth Road and past Croke Park? I have walked past this line almost every day for close to 5 years now and never seen a train on it. I always wondered where it goes and why its not used, anybody able to help me here? If it is not part of the line discussed above why is it there are no suggestions to make better use of it some how?

I remember reading something about it before where the author suggested the best route for the metro would be to follow its route for a while. Although I think that was just be bit of Bertie bashing more so than a realistic suggestion. Something along the lines of Bertie just wants to make sure there will be a metro stop outside of St. Lukes and Fagans.

dynamick · 07-05-2010 2:44pm

Colmgogan wrote: »

1. Metro West should really extend East from the Dardistown stop to interchange with the new Clongriffin or Portmarnock stations to allow Northern line users access the metro west / metro north, this would add considerable patronage to both lines and improve access to the airport.

Maybe. Would have to get tram across motorway and acquire land. They couldn't get the bus to make a profit along this route.

2. The New bridge across the Liffey to accommodate the metro west should be designed to cater for both metro & vehicles.

Road competes with rail. More road means more competition for public transport. Part of getting people to use public transport is ensuring that using a car is as crap as possible.

3. The metro west should be extended from Tallaght east to connect to either the Luas green line or the dart in Bray / Dun Laoghaire

One way to kill a project is to support it so much that you advocate a much more ambitious and expensive version. A version so large that it is never built. Metro West is very shaky right now and nobody expects it to be built this side of 2040

4. The Metro North should be extended south through Rathmines / Terenure area of the city. This part of the city is void of a good reliable public transport mode. When they have the TBM in the ground it should not be stopped! Imagine when they do decide to do this in 5 years time, St Stephens Green will have to be dug up again no doubt! Ridiculous!!!

agree but see previous answer.

5. We should be given assurances from IE that trains in the interconector will run without the need for a timetable. i.e. every few minutes, however I don't understand how this can be the case given that train exiting the portal north of the docklands station will have to share track with Drogheda / Dundalk / Belfast trains. Therefore I can't see how trains will be able run in the interconnector every few minutes. Building the interconnector at such a cost and then requiring a degree in timetable reading will not entice Joe public to use it.

what is your answer to this? quad-track the northern line?

6. I still cannot figure out why the Phoenix Park tunnel can not be used to connect Connolly & Heuston stations. New stations could be built serving the Phoenix Park / Cabra / Phibsborough / Fairview. Also a transfer station could be built on Ossory Rd to change between Northern Line and Maynooth Line.

it's a roundabout route. adds to bottleneck problem at connolly. Cabra/phibsoboro would be better served by luas bxd. Fairview is already served by the DART and buses. Not enough people want to get between these suburbs to justify stations.

7. IE and Dublin bus need to run trains/ buses on clock-faces i.e. without the need for timetables, where trains run every hour / half hour / 1/4hour as required. This is required on Both proposed DART lines. Not requiring timetables will make public transport a more desirable transport choice for all, in the same way that the Luas is run. Stations on IE's network need to come up to similar standards as Luas stations, with adequate customer information / signage etc. I simply don't trust IE to perform this most basic task.

I agree about clockface. IE's work should be contracted out like the luas.

8. Commuter trains need to be electrified as soon as possible.

It's being done.

9. The Lucan Luas line should not terminate in College Green, but continue that tiny bit extra to Pearse St station. IE are anticipating that this will become a major hub, therefore not having it connect with the Luas network is an extreme oversight.

I doubt it will be built. Looks to slow to be worth it. Lucan already has two railway lines but the planners & politicians allowed the town to develop away from the rails. Too late to fix that now.

10. The BDX line to joint the green and red Luas lines is a great idea, however I think they have missed an opportunity to provide a station close to Tara St station. The line will travel south along Marlborough St across the Liffey and into Hawkin st. Why not put a stop on Hawkin st so patrons can interchange between Luas and Tara St station. Otherwise the walk to Tara st from the proposed stops on Marlborough st or Trinity becomes quite long, particularly in winter weather.

Maybe, but you can't have stops at both as they are too close together.

... The customer should always come first, something IE really need to learn! Perhaps one integrated transport body for Dublin might finally knock them off their perch.

IE of course don't do the Luas. Write to the RPA if you care, as it will probably be too late during the consultation period.

paulm17781 · 07-05-2010 4:06pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is the line you are talking about coming from the Phoenix Park Tunnel part of the track that runs along Whitworth Road and past Croke Park? I have walked past this line almost every day for close to 5 years now and never seen a train on it. I always wondered where it goes and why its not used, anybody able to help me here? If it is not part of the line discussed above why is it there are no suggestions to make better use of it some how?

My Northside Geography isn't great but the line that runs along Croke park (by the canal) is the same line that goes to Phoenix park.

Cool Mo D · 07-05-2010 5:55pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

My Northside Geography isn't great but the line that runs along Croke park (by the canal) is the same line that goes to Phoenix park.

No, it's not quite.

There are two lines that run by Croke Park, one south, and one north of the stadium. The Phoenix Park tunnel line runs by hill 16, through Drumcondra, and the Sligo line runs along the canal.

Both lines run to Connolly, and the canal line also runs to Docklands station.

However, it get complicated - the Phoenix park line and the Sligo line meet at Glasnevin, and trains from Sligo can move onto the Phoenix park line to Connolly, but trains from Heuston cannot access the Sligo line to Connolly.

Currently, all Maynooth, Longford and Sligo trains move onto the Phoenix park line to get into Connolly, because it has a better junction to get to all the platforms. If they stay on the Sligo line, they can only get to one of the 3 through platforms at Connolly, and they have to climb a steep slope to get there.

At the moment, the only trains using the line along the canal are trains going to Docklands station from Clonsilla. I believe the plan is that these trains will be extended out the Navan line as it's extended, so Dunboyne trains will use Docklands station.

DWCommuter · 08-05-2010 12:16am

dynamick wrote: »

it's a roundabout route. adds to bottleneck problem at connolly. Cabra/phibsoboro would be better served by luas bxd. Fairview is already served by the DART and buses. Not enough people want to get between these suburbs to justify stations.

I'd appreciate a source for your point about not enough people wanting to get between "these" suburbs. I was at many public meetings in the area over the years where people were agast at its lack of use.

The PPT is not a replacement for the interconnector. That we can all agree on. However the reason that people keep bringing it up is because the route travels through is densely populated and the line has not been factored into any rail development plans. If by magic the interconnector and associated improvements were to appear tomorrow, IE still have no interest in bringing this line into play. Capacity in Connolly wouldn't be a problem post interconnector. Furthermore it would provide an instant connection with MN in Drumcondra.Yet the developmental potential for this route is continually ignored. Its only current passenger use is for enthusiast and sports specials. That is simply not good enough. Its almost as if IE use it to suit themselves and not their customers.

There have been numerous requests and votes at public meetings in Kildare with IE management, clearly demonstrating the demand for a PPT connection to Docklands and a Sunday service to Connolly. (when slots are available) But still nothing is done. The excuses are hilarious. One of which claims that people would get "confused".:eek: The following satelite image shows you how close Docklands is to making a simple connection to the PPT route.

PPT.jpg

The connection was never made, despite public claims by IE that it would. Again the excuses are hilarious. It would also provide a far better connection with MN (if ever built) in Drumcondra. Post interconnector the Dublin northside commute for outer suburban would be into Heuston, onto the interconnector to the green, change to MN and out you go. So when I hear talk of "roundabout route" in realtion to the PPT, I want to laugh. The actual commute to the Aiport (for example) from outer suburban (southern & western line) should be straight to Drumcondra, change to MN and off you go.

Going even further into the post interconnector world, the current plan to reopen the line from Pace to Navan is a grandiose waste of money so far and always was. Why? Because with the interconnector in place, slots are again freed up to accomodate Navan trains via Drogheda using existing infrastructure at a fraction of the cost. The line to Pace is a waste of money and was lead by developer greed. Plain and simple. I believe it will be the WRC of the east. Coonections with MN would be better as well.

The planning of rail transport in the GDA is a disaster. One that is disjointed, badly managed and costing an unecessary fortune, while other parts of the network are struggling to get funds for wheelchair accessible stations. Its mind boggling and disturbing.

dynamick · 08-05-2010 9:57am

DWCommuter wrote: »

I'd appreciate a source for your point about not enough people wanting to get between "these" suburbs. I was at many public meetings in the area over the years where people were agast at its lack of use.

DTO demand modelling showed it had very low demand compared to other routes. See full PfC for details. (I presume you have it and not just the summary on the internet). Maybe the NTA will update these models with the last decade's changes.

...because the route travels through is densely populated

Not from the Park up to Liffey junction.

There have been numerous requests and votes at public meetings in Kildare with IE management, clearly demonstrating the demand for a PPT connection to Docklands and a Sunday service to Connolly.

This sounds like wrc-style advocacy to me. The locals demand it. I grew up on Blackhorse Ave. There was a tunnel under the road where you could see the PPT track heading north south. This was regarded by the locals as proof that IE were total gobdaws/bastards. But now I realise that this route would not bring me to the places I needed to get to: into town, into work, into college, into the shops.

Post interconnector the Dublin northside commute for outer suburban would be into Heuston, onto the interconnector to the green, change to MN and out you go.

Everyone out to Hazelhatch is a direct trip to SSG/change for MN. You have to draw a line somewhere. Dublin can't design itself around the needs of people who live in outer Wicklow/Wexford/Kildare/Meath/Louth. I do feel some sympathy for Dublin workers who yoked themselves to a mortgage in the sticks and now can't move back in. Bubble casualties.

the current plan to reopen the line from Pace to Navan is a grandiose waste of money so far and always was. Why? Because with the interconnector in place, slots are again freed up to accomodate Navan trains via Drogheda using existing infrastructure at a fraction of the cost. The line to Pace is a waste of money and was lead by developer greed. Plain and simple. I believe it will be the WRC of the east. Connections with MN would be better as well.

why would anyone use this line when there is a shiny new motorway for them? I can't see Navan rail getting enough passengers. I can't see it being built after Dempsey leaves office and is replaced with a gobdaw from another area.

Pete_Cavan · 08-05-2010 12:27pm

dynamick wrote: »

why would anyone use this line when there is a shiny new motorway for them? I can't see Navan rail getting enough passengers. I can't see it being built after Dempsey leaves office and is replaced with a gobdaw from another area.

The only saving grace for the Navan rail line, if built, is the outragous cost of using the M3. A round trip on the M8 (Dublin to Cork), a distance of 500km, will only cost €7.40. A round trip on the soon to be opened M3, a distance of less than 100km of motorway, will cost €11.20! The cost of using the M3 will force people off it and all taxpayers will pay for it because the State will have to pay the toll operators, Eurolink, compensation if traffic flows (predicted at up to 60,000 drivers per day) fail to meet the agreed minimum target. The other options then for getting to Dublin are the old N3 or the train. Although I think the line to Navan will have to be finished regardless of who replaces Dempsey because the extension as far as Pace is no good without it.

eia340600 · 08-05-2010 12:58pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Capacity in Connolly wouldn't be a problem post interconnector.

Yes it will.As soon as Northern Line DART services are removed from Connolly the Maynooth Line DART services will commence.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Furthermore it would provide an instant connection with MN in Drumcondra.

There will be a DART connection to MN in Drumcondra anyway.

DWCommuter wrote: »

There have been numerous requests and votes at public meetings in Kildare with IE management, clearly demonstrating the demand for a PPT connection to Docklands

Same was true about the WRC.Let's see how that turns out:rolleyes:

DWCommuter wrote: »

and a Sunday service to Connolly. (when slots are available)

And demand is low.

DWCommuter wrote: »

the following satelite image shows you how close Docklands is to making a simple connection to the PPT route.

PPT.jpg

A sharp(ish) turn over a short distance over 4 lines.Hardly simple-or feasible.

DWCommuter wrote: »

It would also provide a far better connection with MN (if ever built) in Drumcondra.

There will be a good connection in drumcondra anyway.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Post interconnector the Dublin northside commute for outer suburban would be into Heuston, onto the interconnector to the green, change to MN and out you go. So when I hear talk of "roundabout route" in realtion to the PPT, I want to laugh. The actual commute to the Aiport (for example) from outer suburban (southern & western line) should be straight to Drumcondra, change to MN and off you go.

I don't get this part.If you mean the Northern or South Western Line you change at SSG, if you mean the North-Western or Southern Line you change at drumcondra.Simple as.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Going even further into the post interconnector world, the current plan to reopen the line from Pace to Navan is a grandiose waste of money so far and always was. Why?

Because Navan is one of dublins biggest commuter towns.Everyday the N3 is choked with people from Navan(and elsewhere) going to work.Pace will allow people coming from further afield to change to rail with the P&R there.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Because with the interconnector in place, slots are again freed up to accomodate Navan trains via Drogheda using existing infrastructure at a fraction of the cost.

The journey times would be huge.The infrastructure there is only single track and not in great order.It would have to be upgraded to electrified double track.The existing line cannot support speeds more than 20 or 30 kmh either.

DWCommuter wrote: »

The line to Pace is a waste of money and was lead by developer greed. Plain and simple. I believe it will be the WRC of the east. Coonections with MN would be better as well.

I agree about the greed part, but unfortunately the houses were built and people bought them.Now they need a quick, accessible way to get to city and environs.

etchyed · 08-05-2010 1:09pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The only saving grace for the Navan rail line, if built, is the outragous cost of using the M3. A round trip on the M8 (Dublin to Cork), a distance of 500km, will only cost €7.40. A round trip on the soon to be opened M3, a distance of less than 100km of motorway, will cost €11.20!

No, it won't.

€1.40 per toll x 2 tolls x 2 trips = €5.60

Navan commuters will pay one toll, making a round trip €2.80.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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