Why are the British so anti Europe?

Jim2007 · 11-04-2014 10:01pm

sock puppet wrote: »

Why is that necessarily a good thing?

Seriously!!!

You do understand that one of the main reason that Ireland is the only PIG that has any sort of decent change to turn around is that we are an net exporter, right?

sock puppet · 12-04-2014 4:12pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Seriously!!!

You do understand that one of the main reason that Ireland is the only PIG that has any sort of decent change to turn around is that we are an net exporter, right?

Who said anything about Ireland? I asked if trade surpluses were always a good thing. What if the surplus is a result of imports falling with exports remaining flat, or both imports and exports falling, reflecting weak domestic demad?

Then there's the the more long term issue that a trade surplus results from overcapacity in one country/bloc, which is absorbed by over consumption somewhere else. If trade falls the country running a surplus has to bear that adjustment. Not that I think the EU is going to run a persistantly large surplus with the rest of the world, but if it did happend it shouldn't be viewed solely as a good thing.

Jim2007 · 13-04-2014 6:02am

sock puppet wrote: »

Who said anything about Ireland? I asked if trade surpluses were always a good thing. What if the surplus is a result of imports falling with exports remaining flat, or both imports and exports falling, reflecting weak domestic demad?

Then there's the the more long term issue that a trade surplus results from overcapacity in one country/bloc, which is absorbed by over consumption somewhere else. If trade falls the country running a surplus has to bear that adjustment. Not that I think the EU is going to run a persistantly large surplus with the rest of the world, but if it did happend it shouldn't be viewed solely as a good thing.

And your conclusion is what exactly? That it would be better of to run a deficit?....

sock puppet · 14-04-2014 11:16pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And your conclusion is what exactly? That it would be better of to run a deficit?....

No conclusions really, I'm no economist and there never seems to be a definitive answer on trade imbalances anytime I read up on them.

SpaceTime · 15-04-2014 11:46am

sock puppet wrote: »

Who said anything about Ireland? I asked if trade surpluses were always a good thing. What if the surplus is a result of imports falling with exports remaining flat, or both imports and exports falling, reflecting weak domestic demad?

Then there's the the more long term issue that a trade surplus results from overcapacity in one country/bloc, which is absorbed by over consumption somewhere else. If trade falls the country running a surplus has to bear that adjustment. Not that I think the EU is going to run a persistantly large surplus with the rest of the world, but if it did happend it shouldn't be viewed solely as a good thing.

Well, most of it is driven by high tech and luxury goods exports to China.

Europe is still a very, very big player in areas like high tech industry, high end cars, telecommunications infrastructure, power and energy infrastructure, public transit, aircraft, pharmaceutical, biopharmaceutical etc etc etc

Also it's huge on luxury brands and cosmetics etc

You are talking about a bloc that produces a lot of products and services that are far from being commodities.

It's not like we are producing more potatoes than we can consume thus have to export them.

QuentinL · 16-04-2014 7:22am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not really. Consensus means you do what is acceptable to everybody - that is, decisions go ahead if nobody really objects.

cordially,
Scofflaw

In practical terms, any consensus between opposing views is likely to come up with watered down and muddled mixing together of both positions, or a muddled compromise. Consensus can never come up with a coherent economic policy which is likely to be effective.

Your view seems to coincide with that of the late Victor Bewley who gave his profitable café business to his staff, and wanted them to run them on a consensus basis. They did, and the cafés went bust as a direct result.

Consensus sounds like a grand idea, but in practice it means muddled fudge, compromise and lack of direction.

QuentinL · 16-04-2014 7:36am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure Ireland and Malta would be economic superpowers if only they weren't fettered by the EU. Can you point to the high labour cost, high energy cost and high tax provisions of the European Union treaties? Because those don't seem to me to be EU policies.

Sarcasm isn't really argument. Of course, you ask a rhetorical question about EU treaties to try to make a point.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Is that actually true anywhere outside of UKIP talking points? I hear an awful lot of talk about how terrifyingly awful EU red tape is, but I hear very little in the way of concrete examples of it.

Your question indicates you seem to not be unaware of whats happening in many other EU countries, for example, France. Red Tape" and rhetorical questions about EU treaties seem to miss the point of whats actually happening.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I happened to be tangentially involved in a freedom of information request at EU level recently. The initial request is dealt with in a couple of weeks, and the appeals process, if any, takes about the same time. There is no (or minimal) cost involved to the party requesting the information. By contrast, the Irish FoI process is positively byzantine, opaque, and often prohibitively expensive.

It's not clear what your involvement in a FOI request has to do with the topic - it is to show that the EU is not all "bad" or to make some other point?

Lets all agree not everything in the EU is "worse" or "better" than things in individual countries, like Ireland. I think we can all agree that.

QuentinL · 16-04-2014 7:50am

Recent events have actually pushed the UK to the margins of the debate, so the title of this thread is hopelessly out of date!

France is now the hub of Eurosceptic views. Front National promises to hold a referendum on withdrawal from the EU (they want out of it altogether), and also wants to ditch the Euro, and is on 24% in the national polls, Gaullistes on 22½%, the Parti Socialiste (another anti EU party) is on 20½%.

Almost daily now there are calls to abandon the Euro from the press and across the political spectrum, and in Le Figaro (no less) last Friday, an astonishing piece by Philippe Villin (the former editor) called for a force led by France and Italy to scupper the Euro.

He goes on to warn Italian PM that the only hope of lifting Italy out of its low growth economy and debt trap is to return to the Lira, and astonishingly tells him to tour the southern capitals and create a sort of “southern alliance”, the effect of which would be to cause such a drop in the Eurobond market as to scupper the currency, as the only way Italy and other countries can hope to get out of their present economic morass.

The fact that such views are gaining ground across Europe, and in of all countries France, and are becoming mainstream political debate, is what is interesting, and is a big change.

A former EU minister, Laurent Wauquiez, calls for the EU to return to a Euro hard core of Germany, France, italy, Spain Belgium & Holland in his book “Europe, we must change everything”

Another interesting book by Jean-Pierre Chevenment makes the case that the EU had floundered and lost its way due to wrongly blaming nationalism for causing two world wars, which has resulted in it trying to build a superstate by suppressing the nation states of the peoples (plural intended) of Europe.

France, once the most pro EU country, has overtaken the UK by a country mile in her distrust of the EU, and as ever her analysis is both intellectual and emotional. Perhaps in these boards, the emotional is often overlooked, assuming that countries have no national emotions. When Marie Antoinette uttered those famous words about cake she, too, overlooked the role emotion plays in a countries life.

Jim2007 · 16-04-2014 8:31am

sock puppet wrote: »

No conclusions really, I'm no economist and there never seems to be a definitive answer on trade imbalances anytime I read up on them.

Well in general it is not a bad idea to earn more than you spend

All through the recession, financial advisors over here (Switzerland) were recommending Irish government bonds for two reasons:

- We're a northern country => solid! dependable, honors it's commitments etc
- A long history of being a net exporter => it is hard to remain down if you are consistently a net exporter.

Jim2007 · 16-04-2014 9:04am

QuentinL wrote: »

The fact that such views are gaining ground across Europe, and in of all countries France, and are becoming mainstream political debate, is what is interesting, and is a big change.

It is not at all uncommon for people to turn to right wing politics during down turns and it is not even uncommon for that support to run as high as 35% - if you look at Swiss voting statistics for instance in the last 100 years or so.

I fully expect that the right will make substantial gains in the EU parliament in the coming elections, that is to be expected and there will be some swing to the right in policy terms, again that is to be expected. But it would be very foolish to think that the remaining 70% or so will all the EU to die.

What is unusual this time around is that we have people in their mid 30s who are only now experiencing their first serious recession and they are amazed/horrified that such a thing can happen!

oscarBravo · 16-04-2014 11:14am

QuentinL wrote: »

Sarcasm isn't really argument. Of course, you ask a rhetorical question about EU treaties to try to make a point.

It wasn't a rhetorical question, it was a question. You've claimed - repeatedly, long-windedly and over the course of countless usernames on this site - that the EU needs to change its policies. When asked what those policies are, you won't answer the question, and you hide your inability to answer behind indignance and soapboxing.

Your question indicates you seem to not be unaware of whats happening in many other EU countries, for example, France. Red Tape" and rhetorical questions about EU treaties seem to miss the point of whats actually happening.

And that's just another evasion. You don't back up your talking points; you just soapbox repeatedly and at tedious length.

It might be truly interesting to have an actual conversation about some of the pros and cons of the EU. Instead we get this utterly tiresome soapboxing and evasion.

I don't even understand why you feel the need to continuously sign up new accounts to repeatedly spew out the same tired monologues without troubling to actually engage in discussion. Why not just start a blog?

QuentinL · 20-04-2014 8:15am

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is not at all uncommon for people to turn to right wing politics during down turns and it is not even uncommon for that support to run as high as 35% - if you look at Swiss voting statistics for instance in the last 100 years or so.

I used to know what there terms right wing and left wing used to mean. Right wing was capitalist and left wing was socialist. Nowadays the terms seems to be more terms of abuse that trying to describe an individuals philosophy.

Jim2007 wrote: »

I fully expect that the right will make substantial gains in the EU parliament in the coming elections, that is to be expected and there will be some swing to the right in policy terms, again that is to be expected. But it would be very foolish to think that the remaining 70% or so will all the EU to die.

The tory party used to be on the right, and they are expecting big losses. All this right wing/left wing thing seems confusing.

Certainly, the major parties have been flogging a dead horse trying to manage expectations for months now so when the “shock” comes it will be less shocking, and old news. But the fact remains. What is happening in France, for example, and elsewhere is the real story in the bigger picture, perhaps.

Jim2007 wrote: »

What is unusual this time around is that we have people in their mid 30s who are only now experiencing their first serious recession and they are amazed/horrified that such a thing can happen!

Are you suggesting there in a link with the mid 30’s demographic and that this is the same demographic who is going to vote for UKIP in the upcoming EU elections?

QuentinL · 20-04-2014 8:34am

oscarBravo wrote: »

It wasn't a rhetorical question, it was a question. You've claimed - repeatedly, long-windedly and over the course of countless usernames on this site - that the EU needs to change its policies. When asked what those policies are, you won't answer the question, and you hide your inability to answer behind indignance and soapboxing. And that's just another evasion. You don't back up your talking points; you just soapbox repeatedly and at tedious length.

It might be truly interesting to have an actual conversation about some of the pros and cons of the EU. Instead we get this utterly tiresome soapboxing and evasion.

I don't even understand why you feel the need to continuously sign up new accounts to repeatedly spew out the same tired monologues without troubling to actually engage in discussion. Why not just start a blog?

My goodness, what a lot of personal accusations. If your idea if an "actual conversation" is to hurl abuse and make personal accusations, (( I find at least 8 personal accusations and abusive name calling in your short post here, alone) then I hope you find someone who likes to "discuss" in that fashion.

You make general vague accusations, presumably because if you were to make specific ones (for example, such as claiming the polling figures I have quoted were incorrect at the time I posted them) then it could easily be shown your accusation is incorrect.

The developments in France (and elsewhere) are interesting and pertinent to this thread, particularly the facts such as polling figures and what politicians and other influential figures in France are actually saying. If you feel these "talking points" have not been "backed up", as you claim, then even a small bit of research in any of the French Newspapers, and elsewhere, can confirm the figures I have quoted were correct at the time of posting.

While it will be interesting to see the results of the actual elections coming up, it's also unlikely the results will translate into any general elections, and all that can reasonably be surmised from the results will be a general trend.

oscarBravo · 20-04-2014 12:12pm

QuentinL wrote: »

Policies of high labour costs, high energy costs and high taxes don't work...

Can you link to sources for EU policies of high labour costs, high energy costs and high taxes, please?

Jim2007 · 20-04-2014 3:18pm

QuentinL wrote: »

Are you suggesting there in a link with the mid 30’s demographic and that this is the same demographic who is going to vote for UKIP in the upcoming EU elections?

No I am simply saying that people who are jumping up and about how this is new etc. are just people who have never experiences it before.

There is nothing surprising or amazing about it, the conservative approach, the desire to back to a time and state when we felt safe and happy is the normal reaction to a severe downturn. Thus the conservatives, the right, call it what you will, gains ground. There is nothing new in that.

Jim2007 · 20-04-2014 3:26pm

QuentinL wrote: »

While it will be interesting to see the results of the actual elections coming up, it's also unlikely the results will translate into any general elections, and all that can reasonably be surmised from the results will be a general trend.

Well now unless the right fail to make in roads, it will be a none event and the only surprised will be you. You seem to be just going around in circles!

QuentinL · 20-04-2014 3:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you link to sources for EU policies of high labour costs, high energy costs and high taxes, please?

What makes you think individual countries labour, energy and tax policies are set by the EU?

QuentinL · 20-04-2014 3:36pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

No I am simply saying that people who are jumping up and about how this is new etc. are just people who have never experiences it before.

There is nothing surprising or amazing about it, the conservative approach, the desire to back to a time and state when we felt safe and happy is the normal reaction to a severe downturn. Thus the conservatives, the right, call it what you will, gains ground. There is nothing new in that.

Seeing all labour people as marxists, and all tories as bumbling old buffoons who want to hark back to a previous era, seems hopelessly out of date. Certainly, the most successful Tory PM was a radical who shook up the UK to a degree never seen before or since, and to suggest 1979 onwards is a time when the tory party wanted to return to a bygone era seems as fanciful as the labour party being militant socialists since the 1990's.

I don't get the connection with 30 year olds experiencing recession with the growing scepticism across France and Holland and so on. Can you explain?

QuentinL · 20-04-2014 3:39pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well now unless the right fail to make in roads, it will be a none event and the only surprised will be you. You seem to be just going around in circles!

Are you able to say how you define "right" and "left" in 2014? I am guessing, for example, the Parti Socialiste in France would be surprised to hear itself described as a party of the "right", yet they are anti EU and probably poised to make gains in the EU elections.

oscarBravo · 20-04-2014 8:06pm

QuentinL wrote: »

What makes you think individual countries labour, energy and tax policies are set by the EU?

I don't, but you specifically said that the EU's policies should be the opposite of those policies, implying that those are EU policies. Perhaps you should be more clear in what you believe is and should be the case.

Can we take it then that you believe the EU should impose policies of low labour and energy costs and low taxes on its member states against their wishes?

QuentinL · 21-04-2014 8:58am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't, but you specifically said that the EU's policies should be the opposite of those policies, implying that those are EU policies. Perhaps you should be more clear in what you believe is and should be the case.

Can we take it then that you believe the EU should impose policies of low labour and energy costs and low taxes on its member states against their wishes?

How do you suggest the EU can impose policies it's not empowered to propose?

oscarBravo · 21-04-2014 11:39am

OK, so the onus to introduce policies of lower labour and energy costs and lower taxes is on the individual member states, and not on the EU. Clearly, the member states have their own reasons for not introducing such policies.

How is this the EU's fault, exactly?

QuentinL · 21-04-2014 7:13pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, so the onus to introduce policies of lower labour and energy costs and lower taxes is on the individual member states, and not on the EU. Clearly, the member states have their own reasons for not introducing such policies.

How is this the EU's fault, exactly?

What makes you think it's the EU's fault?

oscarBravo · 21-04-2014 7:45pm

QuentinL wrote: »

What makes you think it's the EU's fault?

I have to admit, you got me. I allowed myself to think there was a possibility that you were interested in having a discussion. I should have known better - you never have before.

As always, I'm left wondering what motivates someone to sign up literally dozens of accounts on a discussion forum, in order to do nothing but pontificate and prevaricate.

petronius · 13-06-2014 10:46am

I think there is a fault on a number of sides -
The term anti-europe is wrong it should be anti-EU(or federal europe)

The British Media seem anti-eu and whenever a measure which looks like the EU is to blame it is depicted as such, whereas if a EU law/measure improves peoples rights it is not outlined as an EU measure.
Any measure from the EU which overrules a UK law is seen as interference and johnny foreigner telling john bull what to do.

The EU does itself no favours it should stress the benefits of membership, and indeed UK participation in the EU, some of the crazy laws it allows itself to be ridiculed the straight bananas, threatening banning the selling of drinks in Pints...

One major benefit the EU can be seen to provide UK subjects with is medical services, instead of being on waiting lists there is scope for some people to go to France or Belgium, Holland or Germany and get treatment some same day procedures

opo · 15-06-2014 1:58am

petronius wrote: »

The British Media seem anti-eu and whenever a measure which looks like the EU is to blame it is depicted as such, whereas if a EU law/measure improves peoples rights it is not outlined as an EU measure.

Can you give a few examples of this, especially where the rights of the (voting) majority prevailed?

Jim2007 · 28-06-2014 9:12am

Just another example of how little the Brits know about the decisions they are taking:

Tory MEP Daniel Hannan, also a Eurosceptic, said he might support Britain having a "Swiss-type deal where we are only in the free market and we are outside everything else".

The fact is that we Swiss have to comply with more or less all rules of the EU including the free movement of people and contribute to the structural fund in order to gain access to the market. In addition to which we've had to peg the Franc to the Euro!

These people really are going to sleep walk into the decision at the rate they are going.

McDave · 28-06-2014 10:36am

petronius wrote: »

I think there is a fault on a number of sides -
The term anti-europe is wrong it should be anti-EU(or federal europe)

The British Media seem anti-eu and whenever a measure which looks like the EU is to blame it is depicted as such, whereas if a EU law/measure improves peoples rights it is not outlined as an EU measure.
Any measure from the EU which overrules a UK law is seen as interference and johnny foreigner telling john bull what to do.

The EU does itself no favours it should stress the benefits of membership, and indeed UK participation in the EU, some of the crazy laws it allows itself to be ridiculed the straight bananas, threatening banning the selling of drinks in Pints...

One major benefit the EU can be seen to provide UK subjects with is medical services, instead of being on waiting lists there is scope for some people to go to France or Belgium, Holland or Germany and get treatment some same day procedures

It's really not the EU's job to chase its tail undoing the disinformation and prejudice spread by the British press. In the final analysis, it's up to the British people themselves to decide how they want to engage with the EU. If they prefer the UKIP-style political narrative and asinine Fleet Street misrepresentations, then that's their prerogative.

As for the rest of Europe, there's growing evidence that patience is wearing thin with the UK. Cameron lost a lot of friends with his failed attempt to derail the fiscal compact. The reaction to his attempt to derail Juncker suggests the rest of the EU is prepared to conduct business leaving the UK on the political margins. The means are there - primarily QMV and common policies.

I suspect there will come a time when the UK will have cried wolf so many times, they will be routinely ignored, and possibly even encouraged to leave the EU. I hope it doesn't come to that. But as decades of obstructionism mount, the Brits will have to come clean with themselves at some point.

As for the straight bananas canard, which you repeat here, it might be worth a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

Jim2007 · 28-06-2014 12:23pm

McDave wrote: »

IAs for the straight bananas canard, which you repeat here, it might be worth a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

Many of these rules have a genuine purpose and hit the Brits more than anyone else since they were in the habit of sell many fruits by piece rather than by weight and in doing so would throw in a few undersize pieces in the process

.

dlouth15 · 28-06-2014 1:12pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

The fact is that we Swiss have to comply with more or less all rules of the EU including the free movement of people and contribute to the structural fund in order to gain access to the market. In addition to which we've had to peg the Franc to the Euro!

These people really are going to sleep walk into the decision at the rate they are going.

Wasn't the decision to peg the Franc to the Euro an economic one made by the Swiss? Too much money was entering Switzerland during the Eurozone crisis causing the Franc to appreciate thereby undermining local industry.

Why are the British so anti Europe?

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