The UVF

Fenian Army · 03-09-2012 5:55pm #1

Last year we had a UVF orchestrated attack on the Short Strand. Last night we had UVF orchestrated riots in which over 40 PSNI members were injured.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24342

There have been many other incidents too.

All from an organization which has supposedly "civilianized" and decommissioned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/27/the-truth-about-belfasts-riots

Last year the Unionist politicians fell over themselves to enter into dialog with the UVF, they got what they wanted, now we have orchestrate violence to try and get the same again, with regards to parades.

I thought we were supposed to be living in a new era, or are unionists as tied up with and ambivalent towards loyalist paramilitaries as ever?

There has been a serious lack of outright, meaningful condemnation of the UVF from Unionists.

Fenian Army · 03-09-2012 6:09pm

The loyalists fun day out last night also included the petrol bombing of a house with five kids inside.

poeticseraphim · 03-09-2012 6:18pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Last year we had a UVF orchestrated attack on the Short Strand. Last night we had UVF orchestrated riots in which over 40 PSNI members were injured.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24342

There have been many other incidents too.

All from an organization which has supposedly "civilianized" and decommissioned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/27/the-truth-about-belfasts-riots

There has been a serious lack of outright, meaningful condemnation of the UVF from Unionists.

Sinn Féin = Black pot

They never meaningfully condeme anything either and there have been serious nationalist incidents.

They are as bad as each other. And if we should not talk to loyalists (and we shouldn't in my opinion) thenwe should not talk to Sinn Féin (and we shouldn't in my opinion).

Nationalist politicians are just as tied up with paramilitaries ..that is no excuse for Unionist politicans or paramilitaries.

But i am so over it now ....Sinn Féin should stay over their own side of the border..

And to be honest people need to be reminded this is the REPUBLIC.....the north is the UK we don't have to deal with them...

To be honest i am jaded with it and feel such a disonnect with Northern Ireland...I tire of the efforts to drag the Republic into the turf war of another country.

Infact it is actually very disrespectful towards the Republic in my mind for nationalists in the North not to respect our separate sovreignty.

Fenian Army · 03-09-2012 6:20pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Sinn Féin = Black pot

They never meaningfully condeme anything either and there have been serious nationalist incidents.

They are as bad as each other. And if we should not talk to loyalists (and we shouldn't in my opinion) thenwe should not talk to Sinn Féin (and we shouldn't in my opinion).

Nationalist politicians are just as tied up with paramilitaries ..that is no excuse for Unionist politicans or paramilitaries.

But i am so over it now ....Sinn Féin should stay over their own side of the border..

And to be honest people need to be reminded this is the REPUBLIC.....the north is the UK we don't have to deal with them...

To be honest i am jaded with it and feel such a disonnect with Northern Ireland...I tire of the efforts to drag the Republic into the turf war of another country.

Infact it is actually very disrespectful towards the Republic in my mind for nationalists in the North not to respect our separate sovreignty.

I'll address your first point but I can't be arsed with rest, SF have condemned dissident republican acts in the strongest terms.

poeticseraphim · 03-09-2012 6:20pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

The loyalists fun day out last night also included the petrol bombing of a house with five kids inside.

Well find try and convict them then....and all criminals on both side and no more early releases on any side.

And more security on the streets and longer sentences.

poeticseraphim · 03-09-2012 6:30pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

I'll address your first point but I can't be arsed with rest, SF have condemned dissident republican acts in the strongest terms.

THEY HAVE NOT

And there lack of forthcoming with members past crimes and association with criminals who served time diminishes any such statement.

You should address the rest it is entirely relevant.

It is very disrespectful of nationalists in the north to keep trying to drag a separate sovreign nation into their turf war. It shows a lack of respect for our independance as a nation.

Sinn Féin shows the same disrespect...it's the north this and that....

It is not in the republic's interests to get involved.

Infact the partition keeps us relatively safe...without it we would no be.

So news like this makes me more glad it's there.

I have nothing but sympathy for ordinary people.

But really there is nothing we the republic can actually do.

guinnessdrinker · 03-09-2012 6:35pm

The police seem to have acted gallantly in the face of a well organised attack by the loyalist mob. 47 police injured last night but thankfully no serious injuries reported.

The attack is to be condemned of course without resorting to whataboutery but how certain are you that the UVF were involved? I have not seen anything from the PSNI stating they were involved in any reports.

Nodin · 03-09-2012 6:36pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

THEY HAVE NOT

............

They rather spectacularily have, and received threats etc for their trouble. This stance has been widely reported in the media, so I fail to understand why you are so vehemently denying it.

poeticseraphim · 03-09-2012 6:48pm

Nodin wrote: »

They rather spectacularily have, and received threats etc for their trouble. This stance has been widely reported in the media, so I fail to understand why you are so vehemently denying it.

Words and statements are diminished by their lack of forthcoming and co-operation with authorities and their association with some convicts.

That is why i vehemently deny it.

They are hardly a party founded upon accepted levels of conduct.

I am not saying progress has not been made in that country.

But it is still not normal politics....and normal politics is still pretty bad.

southsiderosie · 03-09-2012 6:58pm

MOD NOTE:

This isn't a thread about Sinn Fein. Can we get back on topic, please?

woodoo · 03-09-2012 8:19pm

poeticseraphim wrote: »

But i am so over it now ....Sinn Féin should stay over their own side of the border..

Sinn Fein was founded before partition.

Re: UVF, I couldn't believe the likes of Nelson McCausland and Nigel Dobbs, they just couldn't condemn law breaking and overt sectarianism.

Chuck Stone · 03-09-2012 8:20pm

And all Nigel Dodds has to say is that there is 'frustration' in the loyalist community. More bad leadership.

Fenian Army · 03-09-2012 8:24pm

Kicking off again tonight...

Dubhlinner · 03-09-2012 10:03pm

Starting to think 1 unified unionist party would be a good thing for the whole of society.

Whilst the mainstream unionist parties fight for the hardline prod vote they'll never give an inch like condemning loyalists.

One big group they'd stop worrying about the other party being more unionist than thou and might act more reasonable. You see shades of it with peter robinson at times perhaps because dup have a comfortable lead over DUP.

not that it excuses them but Sinn Fein are similarly weak in condemning republican rioters during this time of year. They'll always just say "dialogue is needed" when condemnation is warranted.

And its for the same reason the DUP/UUP don't condemn loyalist rioters.They don't want the more traditional republican groups looking more republican than them

getzls · 03-09-2012 11:27pm

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

The police seem to have acted gallantly in the face of a well organised attack by the loyalist mob. 47 police injured last night but thankfully no serious injuries reported.

The attack is to be condemned of course without resorting to whataboutery but how certain are you that the UVF were involved? I have not seen anything from the PSNI stating they were involved in any reports.

Hey! If Sinn fein say it was the UVF, it must be true.;) Never tell lies that lot.

Nothing on the news to say it was.

Can'tseeme · 04-09-2012 12:19pm

getzls wrote: »

Hey! If Sinn fein say it was the UVF, it must be true.;) Never tell lies that lot.

Nothing on the news to say it was.

The SDLP has said it was loyalist paramilitaries

http://www.u.tv/News/Paramilitaries-blamed-for-city-trouble/a1d5979f-b99b-40ec-9c4d-c6c8770adf6d

The PSNI has said it was Loyalists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19465842

Defiler Of The Coffin · 04-09-2012 7:22pm

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

It seems the UVF were behind this after all according to the PSNI.

Link

That article is from last year!

guinnessdrinker · 04-09-2012 8:47pm

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

That article is from last year!

Genuine mistake, I have deleted my post.

Fenian Army · 04-09-2012 8:49pm

It's fairly obvious that it is the UVF behind this large scale orchestrated violence - reasoning is plain too, they are worried about restrictions being placed on their big parade at the end of the month.

laoch na mona · 04-09-2012 10:43pm

http://www.u.tv/News/Paramilitaries-...d-c6c8770adf6d
the PUP politician in that article says it all really to the unionists nationalists having rights is an attack on their culture. They need to introduce some severe anti sectarianism laws

junder · 04-09-2012 11:01pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

It's fairly obvious that it is the UVF behind this large scale orchestrated violence - reasoning is plain too, they are worried about restrictions being placed on their big parade at the end of the month.

UVF orchestrating rioting in the lower shankill which is a UDA stronghold?

TOMASJ · 04-09-2012 11:08pm

junder wrote: »

UVF orchestrating rioting in the lower shankill which is a UDA stronghold?

UVF/UDA/LVF
They are all the same when it comes to backing up the orange brethren,

I'm sure you remember them all triping over other to get to Drumcree

Jelle1880 · 04-09-2012 11:25pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

It's fairly obvious that it is the UVF behind this large scale orchestrated violence - reasoning is plain too, they are worried about restrictions being placed on their big parade at the end of the month.

No it's not

junder · 04-09-2012 11:31pm

TOMASJ wrote: »

junder wrote: »

UVF orchestrating rioting in the lower shankill which is a UDA stronghold?

UVF/UDA/LVF
They are all the same when it comes to backing up the orange brethren,

I'm sure you remember them all triping over other to get to Drumcree

I also remember them trying to kill each other in consecutive fueds that eminated from surprise, surprise, the lower shankill

getzls · 05-09-2012 3:25am

Can'tseeme wrote: »

The SDLP has said it was loyalist paramilitaries

http://www.u.tv/News/Paramilitaries-blamed-for-city-trouble/a1d5979f-b99b-40ec-9c4d-c6c8770adf6d

The PSNI has said it was Loyalists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19465842

Really, that is a lazy reply, Loyalists doe's not mean UVF.

Can'tseeme · 05-09-2012 9:47am

getzls wrote: »

Really, that is a lazy reply, Loyalists doe's not mean UVF.

Make of it what you will. It doesn't matter what Paramilitary group these thugs belong to imo. But local journalists and Police Spokesmen have said that members of Loyalist Paramilitaries were orchestrating trouble on the ground.

junder · 05-09-2012 12:17pm

Can'tseeme wrote: »

getzls wrote: »

Really, that is a lazy reply, Loyalists doe's not mean UVF.

Make of it what you will. It doesn't matter what Paramilitary group these thugs belong to imo. But local journalists and Police Spokesmen have said that members of Loyalist Paramilitaries were orchestrating trouble on the ground.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

Can'tseeme · 05-09-2012 2:31pm

junder wrote: »

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

PSNI Chief Supt George Clarke said there is "no doubt" the violence was organised, however it is too early to say if paramilitaries were involved.

"The violence did come from both sides of the community but initially, certainly, it came from within loyalism," he told UTV. "That's a fact. "There was clearly orchestration, there's no doubt about that.

"Three hundred people on Clifton Street, masonry broken up by people using concrete saws, there's no doubt about orchestration, but I'm not going to stand here and tell you I believe an organisation was involved - it's frankly too early to say that."

http://www.u.tv/news/Trouble-clearly...2-9a5e719dced0

junder · 05-09-2012 3:59pm

Can'tseeme wrote: »

junder wrote: »

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

PSNI Chief Supt George Clarke said there is "no doubt" the violence was organised, however it is too early to say if paramilitaries were involved.

"The violence did come from both sides of the community but initially, certainly, it came from within loyalism," he told UTV. "That's a fact. "There was clearly orchestration, there's no doubt about that.

"Three hundred people on Clifton Street, masonry broken up by people using concrete saws, there's no doubt about orchestration, but I'm not going to stand here and tell you I believe an organisation was involved - it's frankly too early to say that."

http://www.u.tv/news/Trouble-clearly...2-9a5e719dced0

The same police that was blaming the uvf now blaming unknown paramiltarys.

Can'tseeme · 05-09-2012 4:25pm

junder wrote: »

The same police that was blaming the uvf now blaming unknown paramiltarys.

I'll relate you back to an earlier post from me you missed.

Make of it what you will. It doesn't matter what Paramilitary group these thugs belong to imo. But local journalists and Police Spokesmen have said that members of Loyalist Paramilitaries were orchestrating trouble on the ground.

Varied · 05-09-2012 7:09pm

Amazing that, in a thread about the UVF, there is Sinn Fein/republican bashing.

This group had and has no other motive other than to cleanse the North of all Catholics and Irish men. They aren't fighting for civil rights, they are a gang of mindless hateful thugs that aren't content unless they're terrorising the Irish community.

It saddens me that my fellow Irishmen in this forum are busy criticising their own rather than see these people for what they are.

woodoo · 05-09-2012 9:22pm

getzls wrote: »

Really, that is a lazy reply, Loyalists doe's not mean UVF.

They are one and the same, scummy loyalist paramilitaries all.

questionmark? · 05-09-2012 10:16pm

Hannibal Barca. wrote: »

They are Irish themselves.

If that was the case, then we wouldn't have had the troubles or the ****e thats going on over the last few nights.:rolleyes:

junder · 06-09-2012 12:18pm

Baralis1 wrote: »

woodoo wrote: »

Sinn Fein was founded before partition.

Re: UVF, I couldn't believe the likes of Nelson McCausland and Nigel Dobbs, they just couldn't condemn law breaking and overt sectarianism.

That was the real Sinn Fein which is no longer active, not the Provisional Sinn Fein we have nowadays which mascarades as the real Sinn Fein and tries to claim it's legacy. Gerry Adam's Sinn Fein is a splinter group formed in 1970 from the original Sinn Fein and is a different group to the Sinn Fein which fought for our independance. In fact completely different in terms of ideals etc. Collins would turn in his grave at the thought of such a left wing socialist group using his party's name.

Back on topic, I really can't believe that the politicians like Robinson etc are refusing to condemn this violence particularly if it is indeed orchastrated by the UVF. It really does not bode well for the future of Northern Ireland and I hope the loyalist public see this and punish them in the next election.

There is a good chance the m dup and uup will get punished in the next election, but not for the reasons you think

Baralis1 · 06-09-2012 12:44pm

junder wrote: »

There is a good chance the m dup and uup will get punished in the next election, but not for the reasons you think

Surely people can see where this is going, couple of riots this time by loyalists working class people possibly supported by UVF. Couple of tit for tat riots in response by nationalist working class people possibly supported by the IRA and next the whole bloody cycle of violence starts all over again. Surely people in Northern Ireland can see at this stage, after 40 years of it, that violence and rioting is no solution for anything. Politicians and community leaders shoud be coming out very strongly against any violence, not staying silent and passively supporting it by staying silent like the DUP seem to be. And I've no doubt Sinn Fein wouldn't be that vocal either against nationalist violence.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with peaceful dignified protest but rioting leads me to believe that nothing has really changed in Northern Ireland.

Border-Rat · 06-09-2012 1:27pm

There won't be another conflict here. Loyalists are just throwing the toy out of the pram now because they're on the slippery slope. Did you know that Loyalist housing in the Greater Shankill has shrunk by 70% since 1970?

Petrol bombs will not do them any favours when they're losing a demographics war. Peter Robinson has seen this writing on the wall, which is why he's bosom buddies with SF.

Baralis1 · 06-09-2012 1:42pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

There won't be another conflict here. Loyalists are just throwing the toy out of the pram now because they're on the slippery slope. Did you know that Loyalist housing in the Greater Shankill has shrunk by 70% since 1970?

Petrol bombs will not do them any favours when they're losing a demographics war. Peter Robinson has seen this writing on the wall, which is why he's bosom buddies with SF.

I don't it think it really matters that much what the demographics are. Loyalists will still be approximately 50% of the population, even if they do slip into a minority. They will still have to be accommodated under the powersharing agreement, as nationalists are now. I wouldn't be counting on automatic reunification with the Republic. I for one wouldn't want to see Northern Ireland with all its trouble, large angry loyalist population and addiction to British handouts joining my country. We have enough problems.

southsiderosie · 06-09-2012 2:28pm

MOD NOTE:

After deleting yet another string of OT posts, I would like to remind folks that this thread is NOT about Sinn Fein. And it is CERTAINLY not about where people buy drugs or from whom!

Can we please get back on topic?

Border-Rat · 06-09-2012 3:32pm

Baralis1 wrote: »

I don't it think it really matters that much what the demographics are.

A Catholic majority means no more protests for Civil Rights. That might not matter to you, but it certainly does to Nationalists in the North.

Loyalists will still be approximately 50% of the population,

No they don't. The majority of Northern Protestants are Unionist.

even if they do slip into a minority.

There is no 'if' about it. The majority of people under 27 are Catholic. Its a maths certainty.

They will still have to be accommodated under the powersharing agreement, as nationalists are now.

Who said they won't be accommodated? We're not the type to deny people houses or jobs, then shoot them when they protest.

I wouldn't be counting on automatic reunification with the Republic.

Who even mentioned that? And if you think 'Northern Ireland' has legs, when its economy is made up of 70% government spending, you'd be wrong.

I for one wouldn't want to see Northern Ireland with all its trouble, large angry loyalist population and addiction to British handouts joining my country. We have enough problems.

The 26 Counties elected to create Northern Ireland and in 1998 they elected to absorb it if it voted to do so. Like it or not, the North is your 'problem' in the long run.

Fenian Army · 06-09-2012 3:36pm

The violence is less than it has been in previous years over rerouting parades etc... just to put it into perspective.

They are trying to scare the relevant people into capitulating over restrictions on their superparade at the end of the month

junder · 06-09-2012 4:36pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

There won't be another conflict here. Loyalists are just throwing the toy out of the pram now because they're on the slippery slope. Did you know that Loyalist housing in the Greater Shankill has shrunk by 70% since 1970?

Petrol bombs will not do them any favours when they're losing a demographics war. Peter Robinson has seen this writing on the wall, which is why he's bosom buddies with SF.

Yer alot of housing has been knocked down in the shankill road area, which is why there is such a massive housing waiting list for people to get housed in the shankill

whitelines · 06-09-2012 5:42pm

Border-Rat

There is no 'if' about it. The majority of people under 27 are Catholic. Its a maths certainty.

No it's not. What if a lot of 'Catholics' leave? What if a lot of people move in from England? What if a lot of 'Catholics' repudiate their community background? What if the 'Protestant' birth rate accelerates?

The 26 Counties elected to create Northern Ireland and in 1998 they elected to absorb it if it voted to do so. Like it or not, the North is your 'problem' in the long run.

I very much doubt that. Whatever the breakdown between the two 'community backgrounds', it's extremely unlikely that there'll be any successful vote for Irish Unity whilst the very term 'community background' has any importance.

But PIRA got you power sharing in Stormont - and after all that's what they were fighting for wasn't it?

Border-Rat · 06-09-2012 6:01pm

Well actually I'll reply to you when you address all points made, instead of cherry picking. A wee policy of mine.

woodoo · 06-09-2012 7:21pm

Baralis1 wrote: »

Surely people can see where this is going, couple of riots this time by loyalists working class people possibly supported by UVF. Couple of tit for tat riots in response by nationalist working class people possibly supported by the IRA and next the whole bloody cycle of violence starts all over again. Surely people in Northern Ireland can see at this stage, after 40 years of it, that violence and rioting is no solution for anything. Politicians and community leaders shoud be coming out very strongly against any violence, not staying silent and passively supporting it by staying silent like the DUP seem to be. And I've no doubt Sinn Fein wouldn't be that vocal either against nationalist violence..

Maybe secretly many of the are titillated by it.

thecommietommy · 07-09-2012 1:46pm

whitelines wrote: »

Border-Rat

No it's not. What if a lot of 'Catholics' leave? What if a lot of people move in from England? What if a lot of 'Catholics' repudiate their community background? What if the 'Protestant' birth rate accelerates?

So whataboutry becomes whatifry

As for plastic unionists moving over from England, you could probably fit them into a telephone box !!!!!

I very much doubt that. Whatever the breakdown between the two 'community backgrounds', it's extremely unlikely that there'll be any successful vote for Irish Unity whilst the very term 'community background' has any importance.

But PIRA got you power sharing in Stormont - and after all that's what they were fighting for wasn't it?

SF/IRA went for powersharing with unionists, the very same unionsts who once didn't want to have a " Catholic about the place " but ended up sharing the administration of the statelet with SF/IRA instead, don't tell me it was the great ' victory ' unionists including the UVF and the British were looking for all along. But just tell me, if the UVF were the winners in your book, how come they aren't in Govt ?

Regardless, the nationalist population keeps on rising, at school level are already a majority, even Robinson has publically admitted "Northern Ireland's future in the UK could depend on Catholics voting across the traditional divide." Tick, tock, tick, tock

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1119/robinsonp.html

thecommietommy · 07-09-2012 2:09pm

Here's an interesting development for loyalism, " Some voters in staunch loyalist areas such as the Shankill Road are voting for Sinn Fein, senior members of the UDA and its political wing have said. " So much for unionism hoping that nationalists will vote pro union in the future, the opposite seems to be the case :eek:

http://www.bellshillspeaker.co.uk/news/local-headlines/loyalists-voting-for-sinn-fein-uda-boss-1-1178595

junder · 07-09-2012 3:03pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Here's an interesting development for loyalism, " Some voters in staunch loyalist areas such as the Shankill Road are voting for Sinn Fein, senior members of the UDA and its political wing have said. " So much for unionism hoping that nationalists will vote pro union in the future, the opposite seems to be the case :eek:

http://www.bellshillspeaker.co.uk/news/local-headlines/loyalists-voting-for-sinn-fein-uda-boss-1-1178595

So a senior member of the uda who is not from the shankill but who is talking about a uda area in the shankill were the rioting was centred is saying some of those rioters could well be sinn fein voters.

whitelines · 07-09-2012 3:28pm

thecommietommy:

So whataboutry becomes whatifry As for plastic unionists moving over from England, you could probably fit them into a telephone box !!!!!

You think so, do you? Take a look at the census figures for those born on The UK mainland, but living in NI currently.

SF/IRA went for powersharing with unionists, the very same unionsts who once didn't want to have a " Catholic about the place " but ended up sharing the administration of the statelet with SF/IRA instead, don't tell me it was the great ' victory ' unionists including the UVF and the British were looking for all along. But just tell me, if the UVF were the winners in your book, how come they aren't in Govt ?

I couldn't care less about any of the above - especially the bit about The UVF not being in government. LOL

Time to change your record collection mate. LOL

Regardless, the nationalist population keeps on rising, at school level are already a majority, even Robinson has publically admitted "Northern Ireland's future in the UK could depend on Catholics voting across the traditional divide." Tick, tock, tick, tock

Oh God, you're one of the 'tick tock' brigade.

Scofflaw · 07-09-2012 5:03pm

whitelines wrote: »

thecommietommy:

You think so, do you? Take a look at the census figures for those born on The UK mainland, but living in NI currently.

I couldn't care less about any of the above - especially the bit about The UVF not being in government. LOL

Time to change your record collection mate. LOL

Oh God, you're one of the 'tick tock' brigade.

Given your existing infraction/ban record, as well as your quite strong similarities to other banned posters, I think we'll go straight to a fortnight's ban here. Next ban is a permaban.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Dubhlinner · 07-09-2012 6:39pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

So whataboutry becomes whatifry As for plastic unionists moving over from England, you could probably fit them into a telephone box !!!!!

Lot of English people up there in my experience. Lot of people go there for college and find they love the place and stay.

Then you have people working in businesses who come over as managers and consultants.You see this in the south for the same reason. Apart from Poles I'd say our biggest immigrant group.

They're not the types who'll join the DUP but they are the types who'd vote no to reunification with the south. A phone box certainly wouldnt do it.

Dubhlinner · 07-09-2012 6:48pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Here's an interesting development for loyalism, " Some voters in staunch loyalist areas such as the Shankill Road are voting for Sinn Fein, senior members of the UDA and its political wing have said. " So much for unionism hoping that nationalists will vote pro union in the future, the opposite seems to be the case :eek:

http://www.bellshillspeaker.co.uk/news/local-headlines/loyalists-voting-for-sinn-fein-uda-boss-1-1178595

you actually read that link? a handful of sinn fein votes in loyalist areas could be down to catholics in relationships with people from the area. Even if it was loyalists it doesn't mean they'll vote for reunification

The UVF

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