Is it time to end Dublin`s stranglehold on the rest of the country?

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't agree, for the record. I think if you concentrate all your spatial planning energy on three cities to the complete neglect of every other urban centre in the country, you simply end up with a slightly decentralised version of our existing Dublin-centric mess.

Well I'm certainly not suggesting that we let every other town go to ruin or something. I accept you can't expect to shove everybody in 2 or 3 cities or conurbations. I suppose my opinion is that it would be better to develop two or three more substantial critical masses in addition to Dublin, rather than spread our limited resources trying develop many more less substantial ones in the same manner, if its dominance is to be seriously challenged. Neither entails the abandonment of other towns across the country however.

As I say, I believe we have a blueprint for sustainable regional development. Now all we have to do is pay more than bloody lip-service to the damn thing.

Fair enough.

Dannyboy83 wrote:

I had a look at the NSS, but it generally seems to time out around the same time as the Cork Area Strategic Plan, 2011ish.

I think CASP runs to 2020. Interestingly it, and its subsequent implementation are one of the better examples of planning in the country. It's one of the reasons for example, that the Midleton commuter rail has been a success. The docklands proposal was also quite sensible, though sadly unlikely to happen. But even in Cork we can see the depopulating of the city proper, evidenced in the CASP update, the link for which I can't find right now, but it said the population had dropped slightly, despite an overall increase in the greater Cork area. I suppose it's evidence that part of the change toward sustainable development will have to come from people. It's probably a bit off-topic for this thread though, there's plenty other threads arguing the merit of apartment living versus Semi-D's in the 'burbs for all.

goose2005 wrote: »

Part of the problem is that Hungarian identity has been built around Budapest (just as French identity is largely built around Paris) but in Irish identity Dublin has always been suspect, as alien, Protestant, Jewish, Anglophone, Anglo-Irish, liberal...

Good grief, I really think you need to pick up a book or two on Hungarian or French history as what you've just come out with is factually nonsense.

The problem is largely a chicken and egg scenario, in my mind. Population density in Ireland is concentrated in the metropolitan Dublin area (39% of the Republic's population) and, has been pointed out, Ireland has a particularly centralized government system.

It's easy to see why the former is so; I grew up in Dublin, but went to school in Wexford. The latter had bizarre demographics in the 80's, with practically nobody around between the ages of 18 and 40 - the moment you finished school you left and went to Dublin.

After all, there was little work, no industry to speak of, and what businesses that were around tended to be family owned, with few possibility for career progression unless you were a member of that family.

During the boom, I saw people move out to the country and who genuinely preferred living there, but the moment they lost their jobs, they were in trouble; either they were faced with long commutes (one ended commuting from Killarney to Cork every day when he had to get a new job) or return to Dublin.

Certainly there's less infrastructure in such places, but TBH it's difficult to justify infrastructure for such low population density and infrastructure is not going to magically create jobs - at best it may encourage them, but on its own, won't get far. Lot's of cheap broadband is not going to mean people will move to an area populated largely by sheep, or entice a company to move in when it's going to have problems convincing people to move there.

The attempt to diffuse government across Ireland was a noble attempt to partially rebalance things, but ultimately it was badly handled - it should have been a long term plan whereby new state workers, employed from the start outside Dublin, gradually moved the centre of government departments outside Dublin as the older ones retired.

So overall we have a vicious circle where economic conditions cannot support a greater population and the population cannot support better economic conditions. Chicken and egg.

Allowing fiscal autonomy could work, in that each county could set their own taxes and spending so as to attract investment. However, I doubt rural politics has the maturity for such power - we are talking about where the worst excesses of 'parish pump' politics take place in Ireland and where people still re-elect discredited and corrupt politicians on a regular basis. This is one of the problems with low populations; it's easier to have a direct connection to politicians, allowing for greater nod-and-wink corruption.

As things stand, I suspect they would just piss it all away on populist white elephants before coming back to Dublin to be bailed out, just as happened in Spain.

So overall, until this culture is reformed, local autonomy would likely be a failure. But to reform this culture you would need to get past the 'anti-Jackeen' culture that often permeates outside Dublin, as this would likely be seen as an imposition - just as these criticisms are likely to be seen as just Dub arrogance.

Tea drinker wrote: »

Didn't Budapest have the first underground in Europe?

Second after London, I think; the oldest line still has a very much Victorian feeling about it - only a few meters underground, claustrophobic with short, small trains.

No don't have a capital to be proud of, have an absolute sh1thole that can be seen and laughed at from orbit.

Dublin (like the rest of Ireland) has suffered largely from incompetence, corruption and lack of political will. There's plenty of examples of this; Todd Andrews closing down the urban rail system in the sixties is one.

Dublin Bus is another excellent case in point as it is without a shadow of a doubt (having lived in numerous European countries) the worst urban public transport company I have ever encountered - that integrated ticketing is only now being introduced (30+ years after the rest of Europe) is indicative of this, just as we were the last to introduce driver only buses (in the nineties). The root of this has always been the unions, who have never been seriously challenged by the government to this day.

whiskey_bar wrote: »

dublin is not especially protestant ( wicklow , monaghan , have a much larger percentage ) and the jewish population has always been miniscule

I've a feeling the point is more the view sometimes presented of Dublin. But you are absolutely correct. The bulk of the population of Dublin is descended from people who have moved there since Independence. Protestant Dublin emigrated after independence.

Independence brought with it a vision of a rural Irish-speaking Catholic society. Cities in general, and Dublin in particular, were things to be prevented. There is, sometimes, something of an overhang of that view still.