Replacing School books with Ipads??

expectationlost · 30-05-2011 6:10pm

are irish school textbooks all available in e-book format for apple's ipads?
and by all i mean _all_ of them or are books going to creep back in to the bag fills up again.

Permabear · 30-05-2011 6:20pm

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Noreen1 · 30-05-2011 6:31pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Agreed, on all points - but especially the bold text.

ei.sdraob · 30-05-2011 6:35pm

Permabear wrote: »

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Very good idea, those B&N Nooks for example would be perfect for pdf ebooks and cost about 100 euro, as for the books themselves the Department of Education could tender our a contract to whoever comes up with electronic schoolbooks for the curiculum the cheapest

also the gray-scale e-ink is very easy on the eyes, has long battery life (weeks), since I got one I have been reading much more

Permabear · 30-05-2011 6:38pm

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metrovelvet · 30-05-2011 6:47pm

Permabear wrote: »

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I happenned to do very well in these classes at the time but I'll be damned if I remember ANYTHING at all from them. What I do remember is at least they taught you how to think. The main problem was continuity. It was a project started by my middle school, but then not part of a national curriculum so then never continued on in high school. In college, small elte northeastern liberal, I dont even recall anything related to technology on any class options.

bk · 30-05-2011 7:21pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

When we were in middle school we had to learn basic and logo. Utterly pointless. I cant see where they lead in terms of building blocks. What kids learn today in terms of technology will probably be defunct by the time they hit their level.

You teach the basic concepts of computer science, programming, problem solving and logic.

Even if you don't end up working in IT, they can be very valuable skills to learn (problem solving and logic).

If you do go onto working in IT, then the basic concepts of all computer programming languages are the same and it is relatively straight forward to learn a new language. There are families of languages which are obviously closer to one another, object oriented languages, functional languages, etc. but the basic concepts of variables, logic flow, etc. applies across almost all languages.

And the point anyway isn't really to be useful long term. After all, do I have any use for most things I learned in school. No, but they certainly helped grow my mind and gave me a basic grounding in the subject if I decided to continue it in university.

And that is perhaps the most important point. The number of students who enter computer science courses, not knowing anything about it or if they might like it or have the skills for it is frightening. In my CS course, more then 50% of the students would quit by the end of the first year!

Lucky the year before my leaving cert, I was lucky to attend a free course for two hours every Sunday run by electrical engineering students at UCC, where they taught pascal to school students. While I have never used pascal in my professional carer, from studying it I learned that I really enjoyed programming and was good at it and it helped me have a leg up on the other students in the class when I started CS as I already understood the basics of programming.

southsiderosie · 30-05-2011 7:26pm

listermint wrote: »

Its not about the basics, it is about introducing ICT into the classroom. Its obvious that we if we are seeking to push forward Ireland as an innovation hub with technology at the fore. We need to do this within the Schools. Its clear and obvious and for you to 'state' otherwise is obscene.

Its a disgrace that for alot of children the first sight they can get of actual computer linguistics would be (if they are lucky) a quick program in transition year, or wait until college until it is being touched on.

How are we ever going to further technology innovation here if we are paying lip service in nurturing it at an early learning stage. ??

Ok, let's step back for a minute. Can you cite ONE study that suggests that kids having individual laptops increases learning or computer literacy? I am happy to back away from what I've said, but literally everything I have read about these programs in the US suggests that they are a waste of money.

I think the e-reader suggestion is a great idea, if the idea is to cut down on kids lugging books back and forth. Plus they are cheaper to replace, and can't be used to screw around on the internet.

I think that computer science classes would be a great option in secondary school, but again, this doesn't require handing out laptops to every kid - it would probably be better to have a dedicated computer lab in the school with an instructor who could both teach and maintain the machines (which is another major headache with the individual laptop programs).

Ultimately computer innovation won't increase until 1) kids have a better grounding in the basics, and 2) the Irish educational system shifts its focus away from rote learning. Neither of these has anything to do with handing out laptops or even worse iPads to kids.

byhookorbycrook · 30-05-2011 7:43pm

Had an American student in my school for a few weeks. I have been working on a pilot project with some children. When the student came into the room she wanted to know why we weren't working the computer lab. I explained to her that most Irish primary schools hardly have space for the children, never mind a room full of computers(even if a school could afford them.)

As the children scrambled over and under desks and tables to get set up, she then wanted to know where the IT teccie was and why he/she was not setting us up?!

This idea all sounds great in theory, but will the technology have moved on in a short space of time to render them obsolete?

What happens if one gets broken at home?Who fixes it/pays?

metrovelvet · 30-05-2011 7:45pm

bk wrote: »

You teach the basic concepts of computer science, programming, problem solving and logic.

Even if you don't end up working in IT, they can be very valuable skills to learn (problem solving and logic).

If you do go onto working in IT, then the basic concepts of all computer programming languages are the same and it is relatively straight forward to learn a new language. There are families of languages which are obviously closer to one another, object oriented languages, functional languages, etc. but the basic concepts of variables, logic flow, etc. applies across almost all languages.

And the point anyway isn't really to be useful long term. After all, do I have any use for most things I learned in school. No, but they certainly helped grow my mind and gave me a basic grounding in the subject if I decided to continue it in university.

And that is perhaps the most important point. The number of students who enter computer science courses, not knowing anything about it or if they might like it or have the skills for it is frightening. In my CS course, more then 50% of the students would quit by the end of the first year!

Lucky the year before my leaving cert, I was lucky to attend a free course for two hours every Sunday run by electrical engineering students at UCC, where they taught pascal to school students. While I have never used pascal in my professional carer, from studying it I learned that I really enjoyed programming and was good at it and it helped me have a leg up on the other students in the class when I started CS as I already understood the basics of programming.

I know a lot of people argue about the utility of Algebra 2 for example, but at the same time it does ground you in having the opportunity to study other things in the future, so it give you choice even if you dont take up studies that require math skills. People argue the same about history too.

But the thing about taking these computer languages [and I agree with you btw about their benefits] is that at least back then, no one could really see what opportunities they might afford you in the future. I think people thought and might still do that computer stuff is more of a 'trade if you get me.

No one had their own computers and laptops when I was in middle school. This was the computer dinosaur age, so it wasnt necessary back then, even for homework to have one.

I dont see how using an IPAD does the same thing as learning and exploiting a computer language but I can see the benefits of an e reader to a point- to save on lugging books back and forth, but at the same time, I had to mark up pages, and underline and still to this day prefer hard copy for referencing and notes.

Nodin · 30-05-2011 7:47pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

(.....snip.......)

Ultimately computer innovation won't increase until 1) kids have a better grounding in the basics, and 2) the Irish educational system shifts its focus away from rote learning. Neither of these has anything to do with handing out laptops or even worse iPads to kids.

Aha.

It being a considerable period of years since I was in the class room, I was somewhat reluctant to comment on the nuts and bolts of things, but it has to be said that interactivity and nice videos will not memorise the ins and outs of the photosynthetic cycle for ye.

If it was cheaper than the printed alternative, the e-book would therefore be a more useful step. The lunacy of the yearly lash for books and the amount of redundancy/lack of secondhand was always a problem (and I presume still is).

metrovelvet · 30-05-2011 7:51pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Had an American student in my school for a few weeks. I have been working on a pilot project with some children. When the student came into the room she wanted to know why we weren't working the computer lab. I explained to her that most Irish primary schools hardly have space for the children, never mind a room full of computers(even if a school could afford them.)

As the children scrambled over and under desks and tables to get set up, she then wanted to know where the IT teccie was and why he/she was not setting us up?!

This idea all sounds great in theory, but will the technology have moved on in a short space of time to render them obsolete?

What happens if one gets broken at home?Who fixes it/pays?

uh huh. When I was in high school the tuition was about 6K a year. Now its about 30k a year. My jaw dropped when an alum who was on the school board told me that. And he said it was becuase its all wi-fi and teched out now.

johnnyskeleton · 30-05-2011 7:55pm

Manach wrote: »

I'd agree it would cut costs and also that ebooks are easier to browse.

At €700 per child vs maybe €100 for the books, with an expected lifespan of maybe 2-3 years vs potentially a lifetime for the paper books. In the middle of a recession? The only way it would cut costs in my view would be if Apple actually started taking over the schools and giving ipads for free and replacing teachers with a cardboard cut out of Steve Jobs.

Manach wrote: »

However my own experience is they do not provide the same study benefit as normal texts, as knowledge is not as easily absorbed from the screen. It could be that this is due to my own habits and that school pupils might not face this issue.

Maybe it will teach them to better absorb the pearls of wisdom dropped on a daily basis here on boards.ie.

RH149 · 30-05-2011 8:15pm

I'd say it costs a lot more than 100 euro for school books! I spent 110 euro on 4th class books for my son last year and thats after quite a few of them are supplied on loan from the school. Many of the secondary ones cost 20/30 euro each.
Having said that, I've had to replace PE kit, school jumpers, lunchboxes etc frequently as anything that isn't physically tied onto my son gets left down 'somewhere' or in the cloakroom/yard etc. It wouldn't be any different if there was an expensive laptop/iPad in the bag-its still very likely to get lost or stolen. What happens then -when parents can't afford to replace the expensive IT equipment, all their texts are then gone.....how much will they learn then as I doubt the school will have spares lying around or that they'll be able to share with someone else. A nightmare scenario!

Noreen1 · 30-05-2011 8:16pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

At €700 per child vs maybe €100 for the books, with an expected lifespan of maybe 2-3 years vs potentially a lifetime for the paper books. In the middle of a recession?

I wish! Most books cost around 25-30 euro. Some of the TG books cost 65 euro.

It's true that the books could potentially last a lifetime - but the various Publishers ensure that books don't have an enduring lifespan by printing new revisions every couple of years.
Said "revisions" by the way, appear to rearrange chapters more often than update the information contained in said chapters.

I agree that 700 per child is ridiculously expensive, though.

bk · 30-05-2011 8:24pm

It seems people have being mixing up two different conversations here:

1) The need for ICT and Computer Science to be on the Irish curriculum.

I believe these should be full courses on the Irish curriculum. General IT skills (how to use word, powerpoint, the internet, basics of computer tech, etc.) up to junior cert level and proper computer science (programming, db's, etc.) in leaving cert.

Think of it like science to junior cert, chemistry/physics/biology in leaving cert or business studies in junior cert, accountancy at leaving cert.

Of course that doesn't mean every school has to carry all of these subjects, but there should at least be an option in some schools.

Also of course students studying this subjects would require a laptop rather then a ipad.

BTW strictly speaking the basics of computer science and programming are actually taught without a PC. They are concepts that need to be taught before you go anywhere near a PC.

2) The use of iPads or ebooks to replace all text books, not just ICT.

I think whatever you think about the pros and cons, I think it is going to happen either way over the next few years.

The pros are simply too significant, just one light slate to carry rather then many heavy books. Plus not needing to cut down so many trees.

That isn't to say there currently are problems with iPads and ereaders that need to be solved, these include:

1) Price, iPad costs about €500 today, but the price will come down in time. The kindle already costs only $100 today.

2) Kids using them to play games, surf the web, during class.
This is a problem, but solvable with specially designed eReaders (or special software at the OS level) to limit their use to only educational books (at least during class time).

3) Losing access to books over time.
This is a general problem with ebooks. If the books are unencrypted pdf's, then you can use them for the rest of your life (and more likely to last then paper books). Even with DRM, it is a solvable problem.

I'm surprised people think laptops are less likely to break then ipads. That certainly isn't my experience. Laptops have many mechanical parts that are easy to break, the most obvious, the screen hinge. But also mechanical hard disk drives, fans, keyboards with breakable springs, etc.

In comparison iPads are almost indestructible, specially if used with a decent case.

I don't think we are quiet there yet, there are still problems to solve, but I certainly do think we are only a few (less then 5) years from this being the norm.

johnnyskeleton · 30-05-2011 9:35pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

I wish! Most books cost around 25-30 euro. Some of the TG books cost 65 euro.

It's true that the books could potentially last a lifetime - but the various Publishers ensure that books don't have an enduring lifespan by printing new revisions every couple of years.
Said "revisions" by the way, appear to rearrange chapters more often than update the information contained in said chapters.

I agree that 700 per child is ridiculously expensive, though.

I suppose the old buy second hand books and sell them on afterwards ethos is a thing of the past eh?

aca101 · 31-05-2011 12:15am

So many drawbacks to the introduction of this kind of scheme;
first of all it's far easier to absorb information from a text book than it is from a computer screen, the cost is also crazy and what happens when a student's ipad breaks down, abandon all schoolwork until it's repaired?

There's obviously serious scope for misuse and general messing by the kids. Then there's the security threat...kids on their way home from school would become vulnerable to muggings, it would like shooting fish in a barrel for any local scumbag if basically every youngster is carrying a €700 computer on their back.

Don't get me wrong..I'm all for the use of technology in the classroom, it's obviously a really useful learning tool under the right circumstances but I can see far too many disadvantages involved in completely replacing text books with ipads. I'll be genuinely shocked if this takes off on a widespread basis in the next five/ten years.

dan_d · 31-05-2011 10:36am

+1

I heard the principal on the radio yesterday and I am fairly sure what he said for the payment scheme was that a loan could be taken out with the local credit union, and the payments amounted to 23eur a month over 3 years.He considered to be a very good deal with an extremely reasonable interest rate (4%, I think it was)

So you either fork out the full amount or get a loan to add to your monthly outgoings.

I just don't buy it to be honest. I worked in a book shop years ago and we did school books - parents would easily spend 200 pounds at the time on first year books, though that decreased a bit for the following years. I'd imagine now it's in the region of 300eur. As for primary schools, they were in or around the 100pound mark for the higher classes, so it's probably what...150eur for all new books? How does an iPad for 700eur (is that what it is?) balance out against that? What if you've got 2 or 3 kids in the school and they need one each? What happens as they go up through the school....do they need software updates to increase the level of the work? What's stopping them from messing around on the internet all day? How are they going to learn to write - and they will have to, because they will have to do written exams in the future. What happens when they get broken (as they will), or stolen? How do they do homework and how does the teacher check it? What happens if some parents refuse (or just can't) buy into this scheme?

The list is endless. Maybe at some point in the future, when an integrated system is brought in by the Dept of Education, but seriously, this one off thing where schools just randomly decide is a bit ridiculous. As for saying "all kids should learn how to.."....there are few children in this country that don't have access to some sort of PC/laptop/touch screen device at this stage, from a young age. Most of them come into Junior infants knowing more about IT than their teachers do. I agree basic programming could be taught in second level, among other things. I just don't think this school has considered the full implications of what they're doing.

Noreen1 · 31-05-2011 10:57am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I suppose the old buy second hand books and sell them on afterwards ethos is a thing of the past eh?

It's not a thing of the past, no - but it's not possible to do so easily anymore.
eg. I have two daughters in secondary school, a third starting in September.
Very few of the books I bought for the girl in 3rd year were suitable for the girl in 1st year, because new "revisions" were available. I think I managed to use 2 or three of the older girls books.

I'm expecting to have to buy new "revisions" of some of these books this year - not because there's any new information in them, but because a couple of paragraphs have been moved form one chapter to another, or because 40 or 50 page workbooks are not sold separate to the textbooks, so long-suffering parents are forced to pay for another copy of a perfectly serviceable textbook.....

Educational publishing Companies in Ireland have very astute marketing teams.....:mad:

Noreen1 · 31-05-2011 11:04am

dan_d wrote: »

+1

I heard the principal on the radio yesterday and I am fairly sure what he said for the payment scheme was that a loan could be taken out with the local credit union, and the payments amounted to 23eur a month over 3 years.He considered to be a very good deal with an extremely reasonable interest rate (4%, I think it was)

So you either fork out the full amount or get a loan to add to your monthly outgoings.

I just don't buy it to be honest. I worked in a book shop years ago and we did school books - parents would easily spend 200 pounds at the time on first year books, though that decreased a bit for the following years. I'd imagine now it's in the region of 300eur. As for primary schools, they were in or around the 100pound mark for the higher classes, so it's probably what...150eur for all new books? How does an iPad for 700eur (is that what it is?) balance out against that? What if you've got 2 or 3 kids in the school and they need one each? What happens as they go up through the school....do they need software updates to increase the level of the work? What's stopping them from messing around on the internet all day? How are they going to learn to write - and they will have to, because they will have to do written exams in the future. What happens when they get broken (as they will), or stolen? How do they do homework and how does the teacher check it? What happens if some parents refuse (or just can't) buy into this scheme?

The list is endless. Maybe at some point in the future, when an integrated system is brought in by the Dept of Education, but seriously, this one off thing where schools just randomly decide is a bit ridiculous. As for saying "all kids should learn how to.."....there are few children in this country that don't have access to some sort of PC/laptop/touch screen device at this stage, from a young age. Most of them come into Junior infants knowing more about IT than their teachers do. I agree basic programming could be taught in second level, among other things. I just don't think this school has considered the full implications of what they're doing.

Some very fair points.

E-readers, to be left in school, would be an option - though I would imagine that there are some schools where the pupils would deliberately break them.

The other problem is that Publishing companies would probably use some proprietary software to protect their copyright, further complicating the issue.....

thebman · 31-05-2011 1:52pm

I have a couple of points on this.

One, iPads stupid idea, fair more practical technologies and this screams of a vanity project by someone looking to get their name in the paper and hoping it furthers their career. Probably try to write a paper on it or something in a few years on why it was great but didn't quite achieve its goal (i.e. why it failed).

Computers in schools is a great idea but there is a massive problem here. Many teacher are computer illiterate. Like seriously, most of the people I know who became teachers were the ones that had to ask for help on using word on computers and get help to remember where they had saved their files and I'm not that long out of college.

I've never seen people so afraid of using a computer alone and most people with computer qualifications aren't qualified to go into a classroom with a bunch of kids and many probably get paid better in their own industry.

The real problem is the best qualified people to do this are probably maths teachers and we have enough problems with getting them to teach maths without asking them to teach computers too.

We need a migration system for people with qualifications in computers to be trained to teach this to a class IMO then introduce it to the class room.

padr81 · 31-05-2011 4:53pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Some day in the future kids probably won't be able to write. Disable their spell checks and they won't be able to spell. Kids laden with books is not a recent phenomena, it's not rocket science. We had lockers in school, so you left what you didn't need for homework that night in the locker and only carried what was necessary.

Of course kids are so precious nowadays, they can't even walk. You would rarely see anyone getting a lift to school from a parent, when I was in secondary school. Christ, today they seem to have lost the ability to walk or cycle. So install some lockers and teach them how to read and write properly, fúcking iPads my arse.:rolleyes:

Problem was books weren't as big, 6th class nephew, has to bring all his books home. Bag weighs 3 stone. Try walking 20 minutes home carrying 3 stone at age 12.

dan_d · 31-05-2011 6:26pm

thebman wrote: »

I have a couple of points on this.

One, iPads stupid idea, fair more practical technologies and this screams of a vanity project by someone looking to get their name in the paper and hoping it furthers their career. Probably try to write a paper on it or something in a few years on why it was great but didn't quite achieve its goal (i.e. why it failed).

Computers in schools is a great idea but there is a massive problem here. Many teacher are computer illiterate. Like seriously, most of the people I know who became teachers were the ones that had to ask for help on using word on computers and get help to remember where they had saved their files and I'm not that long out of college.

I've never seen people so afraid of using a computer alone and most people with computer qualifications aren't qualified to go into a classroom with a bunch of kids and many probably get paid better in their own industry.

The real problem is the best qualified people to do this are probably maths teachers and we have enough problems with getting them to teach maths without asking them to teach computers too.

We need a migration system for people with qualifications in computers to be trained to teach this to a class IMO then introduce it to the class room.

Practical, sensible solution.

It won't happen.

Unemployed engineers are being told they can't convert to teaching (maths being the subject obviously) because there's "not enough maths in their degree". They can do the HDip alright, but they won't be able to register as a teacher at the end of it, because the Teaching Council of Ireland (read "bunch of paper pushers") have decreed that there is not enough maths in an engineering degree to qualify you as a maths teacher.
Never mind that you spend a minimum of 3 years doing pure maths modules, not to mention all the other maths-based subjects that are involved in the degree.

Mind you, there are many among the current crop of maths teachers who's primary qualification is not mathematical (as highlighted a few months ago in a newspaper report)

Go figure.:rolleyes:

As for IT, you're right....most teachers out there have basic IT knowledge (word, maybe excel, email) and that's it. The kids they are teaching tend to know more than they do.

I can just imagine the havoc the use of an iPad will wreak in that school among the teachers...

paudy1 · 31-05-2011 6:56pm

I'm all for wider use of technology in our classrooms since it’s been widely proven that some students learn better through sound, some through visuals and others through reading. Using multiple methods available via ebooks, videos, tutorials, educational games is really helpful in having students understand concepts quicker than just using going through the problem on the board at the front of the class.

Providing the same material in a variety of formats, including audio, visual explanations, and with tools like built-in Notes feature for letting the students write their own notes is a real step forward.

Adapting to each student’s learning style is the biggest advantage technology has to offer that traditional teaching methods cannot provide on their own.

thebman · 31-05-2011 9:24pm

paudy1 wrote: »

I'm all for wider use of technology in our classrooms since it’s been widely proven that some students learn better through sound, some through visuals and others through reading. Using multiple methods available via ebooks, videos, tutorials, educational games is really helpful in having students understand concepts quicker than just using going through the problem on the board at the front of the class.

Providing the same material in a variety of formats, including audio, visual explanations, and with tools like built-in Notes feature for letting the students write their own notes is a real step forward.

Adapting to each student’s learning style is the biggest advantage technology has to offer that traditional teaching methods cannot provide on their own.

Yes might be best to use something that comes with an expected connectivity option of any gerneral use device, a USB port though.

No shortage of alternatives to the iPad on the market. Did Apple just pay for this school to announce this I wonder to try to hype their product with a cheap marketing campaign.

marco2011 · 10-06-2011 1:51pm

Has anyone considered the implications of children viewing or downloading pornography during class hours on their Ipad or Laptop? Many phones today allow you to set up a Wireless Network that can be accessed by these devices. I believe there could be serious implications for schools in this area, apart from the obvious ease of switching into Facebook which could be a lot more fun than the subject being covered.

thebman · 10-06-2011 2:38pm

marco2011 wrote: »

Has anyone considered the implications of children viewing or downloading pornography during class hours on their Ipad or Laptop? Many phones today allow you to set up a Wireless Network that can be accessed by these devices. I believe there could be serious implications for schools in this area, apart from the obvious ease of switching into Facebook which could be a lot more fun than the subject being covered.

You can get blocks via OpenDNS to block such sites along with extra technologies to block them.

Always a way around it if the kids work hard enough though but with several layers of protection they will have to learn a lot to get to Facebook.

As the school could monitor network activity, viewing porn would be an automatical dismissal from the school event. Not hard to trace it back to the iPad it was accessed from.

Zubeneschamali · 10-06-2011 2:48pm

thebman wrote: »

Not hard to trace it back to the iPad it was accessed from.

"I only put it down for a minute, Miss, while i went to the bathroom!"

thebman · 10-06-2011 3:00pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"I only put it down for a minute, Miss, while i went to the bathroom!"

You can pin lock the screens.

Then it would be there fault for not securing and it would have to be assumed they were using it.

Anyway its nothing they can't do on their phones already.

marco2011 · 10-06-2011 3:14pm

"As the school could monitor network activity, viewing porn would be an automatical dismissal from the school event. Not hard to trace it back to the iPad it was accessed from."

How can the school monitor network activity on a mobile phone network?

thebman · 10-06-2011 3:16pm

marco2011 wrote: »

"As the school could monitor network activity, viewing porn would be an automatical dismissal from the school event. Not hard to trace it back to the iPad it was accessed from."

How can the school monitor network activity on a mobile phone network?

An iPad is not an iPhone, it connects to a wireless network, the schools wireless network when at school.

StupidLikeAFox · 10-06-2011 3:34pm

Personally I think it is a step in the right direction. However, why iPads? They are not the cheapest, most versatile or most powerful type of tablet. They have the cool factor purely down to the Apple marketing genius.

Better Options:

A (From YLYL)
http://myitforum.com/cs2/blogs/rtrent/ipadold_thumb_4E13F0BF.jpg

B (more modern)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS9Sy7DkobY

Zubeneschamali · 10-06-2011 3:35pm

thebman wrote: »

An iPad is not an iPhone

It is if you stick a SIM into it.

marco2011 · 10-06-2011 4:03pm

thebman wrote: »

An iPad is not an iPhone, it connects to a wireless network, the schools wireless network when at school.

The point I made is that many Smart Phones can be used as wireless networks, so they don't have to go through the school network.

thebman · 10-06-2011 4:43pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It is if you stick a SIM into it.

Not really, its an iPad with a sim card in it. The kid would have to pay the bills and unless its contract, they are quite high for small usage.

And the bigger screen of an iPad would be hard to hide looking at porn on. It really is no different to the kid accessing it on his own phone in this case though.

The school can't be held responsible for what kids do with external networks.

marco2011 wrote: »

The point I made is that many Smart Phones can be used as wireless networks, so they don't have to go through the school network.

And how is that any different than just using the smart phone to access porn directly except for giving them a bigger screen so they don't have eye strain?

_Kaiser_ · 10-06-2011 5:06pm

For what it's worth, in my last role as IT Administrator/Manager for a large multi-site/5000 user public sector education body (enough hints there I'm sure

) we were very progressive with the use of technology in the classroom.

Well before Batt O'Keeffe (remember him?) appeared on the telly promising projectors in every classroom, we had kitted out every classroom in EVERY school with a PC or laptop, data projector, internet/LAN access, shared drives, Sharepoint access, and given every user a Domain account and Exchange-based email account.
Someone mentioned Linux earlier but we had Microsoft Campus agreements which gave us full access to virtually the entire suit of Microsoft products (including home use rights for Office and Windows) for a fraction of what the commercial or retail costs are.

This work later extended to buying DELL Mini laptops for the 4th years of 2 of the schools as a trial and full-size laptops for LCA students to work though and the feedback was very positive from staff and students alike.

(However thanks to our government's recruitment embargo, and despite 2 appeals, in late 2009, I and the 2 guys I had working with me were made redundant and things ground to a halt as the cost of replacing us was being quoted as over double what we were paid, and then only for a far more restricted "what's in the SLA-only" type service... I gather things have improved in some ways - mostly infrastructure - since then but the level of service is still lacking significantly behind what I and my team offered)

The key though is you need buy-in from the staff which wasn't a problem with a lot of the younger members (but yes there were the older "I'm only in it for the paycheque" types that had to be nudged along too) and you need local IT support to manage it. That means network and internet security, Active Directory management and a proactive approach (as kids are very good and fast to find ways around something - it only takes an hour before some new "proxy site" can be all over a school!)

Believe it or not (and part of the reason why I was made redundant) but there is still no "IT" post in the Department's setup - ergo I was technically classed as Admin (and thus subject to the indiscriminate cull) and my wages were paid for by charging each location for my/our time.

Oh and I didn't get the gold-plated pension either (just as I did in my multinational days - and do now - I had to pay a monthly contribution for it) and I certainly wasn't on the big money.. it actually worked out LESS than I was on now and I had to provide and maintain my own car (no company car for me) to facilitate the travel - for which I was paid a paltry 19c per km which barely covered the diesel!

But, I did have the opportunity to grow something from nothing (a "green field" site as the CEO called it) and I'm proud of the work we put in and what we achieved even though that same Batt O'Keeffe and his Department saw fit to make me and my team redundant not long before his grandstanding on the telly! :rolleyes:

marco2011 · 10-06-2011 5:33pm

thebman wrote: »

Not really, its an iPad with a sim card in it. The kid would have to pay the bills and unless its contract, they are quite high for small usage.

And the bigger screen of an iPad would be hard to hide looking at porn on. It really is no different to the kid accessing it on his own phone in this case though.

The school can't be held responsible for what kids do with external networks.

And how is that any different than just using the smart phone to access porn directly except for giving them a bigger screen so they don't have eye strain?

There are two major differences - the Ipad has been approved for use by the school during school hours - phones generally are not.

The second difference is that one phone set up as a Network would allow anyone in the class to link to it. So one parent might have been vigilant in preventing their child from accessing adult content through phone restrictions. However, the child still manages to access adult content via the phone of another child in the class, during class hours, on a device approved by the school. A school is legally responsible for children during class hours so this could cause a major headache for them.

rodento · 10-06-2011 6:15pm

This is way more positive than people think, first off the kids are not lugging around loads of really heavy books all day and secondly, the education interactive apps will make learning way more fun and should easily keep the kids attention(Its not just about reading pdf's)

Also has the added bonus of keeping up to date with modern technology.

Blinding move in my opinion and madly jealous to boot

FYI smartphones and pads are overtaking computer sales for the first time and at least 25% of google searchs are done by phones:eek:

banquo · 10-06-2011 6:50pm

It's because the school would have much, much greater control over what the iPad in the child's hands can / can't do.

There's way more developers for iPad than other platforms and, because it's so popular and been around longer than other tablet devices, it's been more tried and tested.

They're really, really easy to use.

Also you can, you know, buy one. Most other tablets are vapourware, and the ones you can buy either suck majorly or are priced way higher than the iPad. By far the best bang for your buck. These aren't techies who want more control over the device: they're children.

Oh. And you can get WiFi only models.

I'm personally all for it.

thebman · 11-06-2011 12:31am

banquo wrote: »

It's because the school would have much, much greater control over what the iPad in the child's hands can / can't do.

How, where are the lock down options or custom firmwares for iPad?

There's way more developers for iPad than other platforms and, because it's so popular and been around longer than other tablet devices, it's been more tried and tested.

That is simply untrue. There are plenty of other tablets on the market and since the Android ones are open sourced, they are by far a better choice for this sort of thing yet still a poor choice due to no dedicated keyboard. A netbook would probably be a better option.

They're really, really easy to use.

Also you can, you know, buy one. Most other tablets are vapourware, and the ones you can buy either suck majorly or are priced way higher than the iPad. By far the best bang for your buck. These aren't techies who want more control over the device: they're children.

This is again simply untrue. Most other tablets exist and are viewable in stores

Do you work for Apple or something? It is not in anyway the best bang for buck. You don't have to be a techie to use alternative platforms to Apple. Most are almost, just or even easier to use :rolleyes:

Grudaire · 11-06-2011 1:21am

banquo wrote: »

It's because the school would have much, much greater control over what the iPad in the child's hands can / can't do.

There's way more developers for iPad than other platforms and, because it's so popular and been around longer than other tablet devices, it's been more tried and tested.

They're really, really easy to use.

Also you can, you know, buy one. Most other tablets are vapourware, and the ones you can buy either suck majorly or are priced way higher than the iPad. By far the best bang for your buck. These aren't techies who want more control over the device: they're children.

Oh. And you can get WiFi only models.

I'm personally all for it.

Sorry I personally believe that is a load of baloney. Why out of curiousity do they not try and link in with something like the "One Laptop Per Child" or similar movement. I'm failing to see the leap to using Ipads, and I would be curious how they decided on using the Ipad. I can imagine them sitting in a room discussing how ipads are the new fashion, and wondering how they could link it in to the classroom - I would suspect it wasn't a case of choosing the end result and finding the tools.

On the really really easy to use comment I did a scout, seems like you spend a lot of time on the apple forums here:

banquo wrote: »

If I had an iPad I'd totally lend it to you.

I assume this means you can speak on authority on how "they're really, really easy to use" and how the alternatives aren't? :P

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:42am

padr81 wrote: »

Problem was books weren't as big, 6th class nephew, has to bring all his books home. Bag weighs 3 stone. Try walking 20 minutes home carrying 3 stone at age 12.

Red herring

Lockers in schools would have solved that.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:45am

bk wrote: »

Yet there is no ICT or Computer Science subject in either Junior Cert or Leaving Cert, despite the IT industry being one of the most important industries in Ireland and IT being used in almost every other industry.

I got a cert for doing the optional computer bit in Maths back in the 80's.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:59am

Two other options.

Wait a while
India are developing a cheap tablet. It will be about €25, technically it will be a mobile phone with a big screen (OK so is the ipad) but they will have economies of scale and it's doable.
Yes that's right you can have a box preloaded with an English language curricuum for less than the price of some Irish schoolbooks - just need to change History / Geography and languages.

http://camaraireland.ie/ refurbished laptops and desktops, you don't need the latest and greatest to view ebooks

€700 per child is crazy especially when that amount of money could be put to other uses expecially in the under resourced primary schools.

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 8:37am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Red herring

Lockers in schools would have solved that.

Lockers don't solve the problem of having to bring books home to do homework, unfortunately.

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 8:44am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Two other options.

Wait a while
India are developing a cheap tablet. It will be about €25, technically it will be a mobile phone with a big screen (OK so is the ipad) but they will have economies of scale and it's doable.
Yes that's right you can have a box preloaded with an English language curricuum for less than the price of some Irish schoolbooks - just need to change History / Geography and languages.

http://camaraireland.ie/ refurbished laptops and desktops, you don't need the latest and greatest to view ebooks

€700 per child is crazy especially when that amount of money could be put to other uses expecially in the under resourced primary schools.

I agree that €700 per child is a ridiculous amount of money.
I'm not sure what you mean by the money being put to better use in under-resourced primary schools, though?

The one thing we can be sure of, is that whatever solution is adopted:
A: The parents will pay, just as they pay for schoolbooks now.
B: Individual schools will undoubtedly have a choice of a number of devices - but will "recommend" only one - and it is unlikely to be the €30 Indian option.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:23pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

Lockers don't solve the problem of having to bring books home to do homework, unfortunately.

A simple rule that only homework from N subjeccts per night is allowed. Teachers to sort it out themselves, either by dary ( ie. maths homework on tuesdays ) or by tokens in the staff room, - two tokens for class 3a - each teacher can only use up to two times a week.

This is not rocket science, it doesn't need a techno fix

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:28pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by the money being put to better use in under-resourced primary schools, though?

you get more bang for your buck in primary, I'd guess that some (old enough to vote) third level students go through as much materials as a whole primary class (excluding wages of course).

The one thing we can be sure of, is that whatever solution is adopted:
A: The parents will pay, just as they pay for schoolbooks now.
B: Individual schools will undoubtedly have a choice of a number of devices - but will "recommend" only one - and it is unlikely to be the €30 Indian option.

parents will pay eitherway

what can an ipad do that a €30 android type 7-10" tablet can't do ?
bearing in mind that stuff that isn't directly related to education doesn't count.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:37pm

Most children study/learn in specific places. In the classroom, or bedroom at home. Using the "cloud" would mean they don't actually need portable devices. And if they did they could use ANY device.

Anyone who suggests that kid would use these devices to learn on the move better have stats to prove it because even at third level I didn't know anyone who took books/notes with them outside a learning environment who actually used them.

There is no need for a Vendor lock in to fix a problem that could be sorted out in so many other ways.

Look at examples in the US of remote control of devices to see the legal nightmares that could happen, webcams have been used to spy on students etc.

If schools could use open soure text books they could print a chapter at a time so kids wouldn't need to take a whole book home, actually if school books were availabe to print on demand then students could have two copies, one at school and one at home.

Replacing School books with Ipads??

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