The UVF

thecommietommy · 08-09-2012 11:21am

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Lot of English people up there in my experience. Lot of people go there for college and find they love the place and stay.

Then you have people working in businesses who come over as managers and consultants.You see this in the south for the same reason. Apart from Poles I'd say our biggest immigrant group.

They're not the types who'll join the DUP but they are the types who'd vote no to reunification with the south. A phone box certainly wouldnt do it.

English professionals in management or students are only there temporary, they haven't the slightest interest in the UVF, DUP or Orange Order. Their's easily more southerners in the north than English people on business, studying etc. I believe up to 10% of the students in Queens are from the south - and they won't be supporting the UVF or other unionists will they.

Funny you should mention the Poles, I would have thought that with the many attacks by the UVF lowlife on the mainly Catholic Polish people as well as other nationality's, it would be pretty obvious where their political support will be going

Northern Ireland attacks on Poles blamed on loyalists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/10/northern-ireland-attacks-polish-migrants

thecommietommy · 08-09-2012 11:31am

whitelines wrote: »

thecommietommy:

You think so, do you? Take a look at the census figures for those born on The UK mainland, but living in NI currently.

I'm not aware of them, would be glad if you could provide them. And just because they were born in England ( or America or anywhere else), it doesn't mean that they will necessarily support the UVF or unionism, after all who had the highest immigration in the past, unionists or nationalists ?

I couldn't care less about any of the above - especially the bit about The UVF not being in government. LOL

Time to change your record collection mate. LOL

Oh God, you're one of the 'tick tock' brigade.

So your stumped and cannot provide a half decent answer but instead try to be a dismisive funny guy. Easy to see who's won this one

Dubhlinner · 08-09-2012 4:33pm

thecommietommy wrote: »

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Lot of English people up there in my experience. Lot of people go there for college and find they love the place and stay.

Then you have people working in businesses who come over as managers and consultants.You see this in the south for the same reason. Apart from Poles I'd say our biggest immigrant group.

They're not the types who'll join the DUP but they are the types who'd vote no to reunification with the south. A phone box certainly wouldnt do it.

English professionals in management or students are only there temporary, they haven't the slightest interest in the UVF, DUP or Orange Order. Their's easily more southerners in the north than English people on business, studying etc. I believe up to 10% of the students in Queens are from the south - and they won't be supporting the UVF or other unionists will they.

Funny you should mention the Poles, I would have thought that with the many attacks by the UVF lowlife on the mainly Catholic Polish people as well as other nationality's, it would be pretty obvious where their political support will be going

Northern Ireland attacks on Poles blamed on loyalists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/10/northern-ireland-attacks-polish-migrants

Just telling you my experience of living there.

The demographic argument won't bring reunification imho, people who currently have a constitutional preference for union with Britain for whatever reason will have to be convinced otherwise in mass numbers. That's the bottom line.

Re the poles was talking about the 26 counties, in the north I've no doubt they'd have preference for the nationalist parties, in fact sdlp had a polish candidate, but whether that means they're in favour of Irish renuification is more complicated

Tool_ · 08-09-2012 10:02pm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Starting to think 1 unified unionist party would be a good thing for the whole of society.

Whilst the mainstream unionist parties fight for the hardline prod vote they'll never give an inch like condemning loyalists.

One big group they'd stop worrying about the other party being more unionist than thou and might act more reasonable. You see shades of it with peter robinson at times perhaps because dup have a comfortable lead over DUP.

not that it excuses them but Sinn Fein are similarly weak in condemning republican rioters during this time of year. They'll always just say "dialogue is needed" when condemnation is warranted.

And its for the same reason the DUP/UUP don't condemn loyalist rioters.They don't want the more traditional republican groups looking more republican than them

We had Unionist 1 Party Rule for the guts of 50 years after partition and that era isn't particularly noted as a golden age for fairness and equality, so I think its fair to say any moves by the DUP towards accommodation are driven by demographics rather than a good old fashioned sense of British fair play.

Partition was specifically designed to give unionists a homeland with an inbuilt sectarian majority and, while this was traumatic for the country (and northern nationalists like me in particular) it was a unique opportunity to wipe the slate clean and build a "shared future" (apologies for peace processing language).

Unionists had the breathing space of a huge majority, control of the levers of power and back-up from Britain to make the new state of Northern Ireland in whatever way they wanted. The sectarian hell-hole they dreamed up, with systematic discrimination in all aspects of the state's dealings with its own citizens made the awful bloodshed almost inevitable.

jimmycrackcorm · 09-09-2012 2:56am

I find it interesting that the OP refers to UVF orchestration of the riots when I'd actually make a comparison to the London riots last year. Some people do so love to riot and any excuse will suffice.

Tool_ · 09-09-2012 11:31am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I find it interesting that the OP refers to UVF orchestration of the riots when I'd actually make a comparison to the London riots last year. Some people do so love to riot and any excuse will suffice.

These riots were clearly orchestrated and prominent UVF figures went out of their way to make sure they were publicly associated with the trouble outside St Patrick's Church and again at Clifton St Orange Hall.

The band caught on camera indulging in sectarian showboating outside St Patricks chapel (Young Conway Volunteers) are linked to the YCV/UVF and they packed the front of St Patricks with UVF members to cheer them on as they defied the Parades Commission ban for the following march.

Recreational rioting is undoubtedly an issue, but loyalist paramilitaries can and do turn it on and off like a tap.

Dubhlinner · 09-09-2012 1:20pm

Tool_ wrote: »

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Starting to think 1 unified unionist party would be a good thing for the whole of society.

Whilst the mainstream unionist parties fight for the hardline prod vote they'll never give an inch like condemning loyalists.

One big group they'd stop worrying about the other party being more unionist than thou and might act more reasonable. You see shades of it with peter robinson at times perhaps because dup have a comfortable lead over DUP.

not that it excuses them but Sinn Fein are similarly weak in condemning republican rioters during this time of year. They'll always just say "dialogue is needed" when condemnation is warranted.

And its for the same reason the DUP/UUP don't condemn loyalist rioters.They don't want the more traditional republican groups looking more republican than them

We had Unionist 1 Party Rule for the guts of 50 years after partition and that era isn't particularly noted as a golden age for fairness and equality, so I think its fair to say any moves by the DUP towards accommodation are driven by demographics rather than a good old fashioned sense of British fair play.

Partition was specifically designed to give unionists a homeland with an inbuilt sectarian majority and, while this was traumatic for the country (and northern nationalists like me in particular) it was a unique opportunity to wipe the slate clean and build a "shared future" (apologies for peace processing language).

Unionists had the breathing space of a huge majority, control of the levers of power and back-up from Britain to make the new state of Northern Ireland in whatever way they wanted. The sectarian hell-hole they dreamed up, with systematic discrimination in all aspects of the state's dealings with its own citizens made the awful bloodshed almost inevitable.

See that's the thing, they won't have the majority power they did up until direct rule because going forward the catholic/protestant split is gonna be 50/50ish. Power sharing also acts as a safeguard against what happened in the past.

I just think current scenario where uup & dup are trying to outprod each other for fear of losing the hardline vote is wretched

Tool_ · 09-09-2012 2:35pm

Dubhlinner wrote: »

See that's the thing, they won't have the majority power they did up until direct rule because going forward the catholic/protestant split is gonna be 50/50ish. Power sharing also acts as a safeguard against what happened in the past.

I just think current scenario where uup & dup are trying to outprod each other for fear of losing the hardline vote is wretched

Peace has provided the breathing space for progress to be made, and the enforced power-sharing arrangements at the Assembly are vital, but I don't see a unified unionist party as the panacea we've been waiting for.

Councils under unionist control have refused to adopt power sharing, with the DUP and UUP collaborating to keep things as close to the gold old bad old days as they can get away with. See Craigavon, Lisburn, Antrim, Newtonabbey and Ballymoney for examples of unionists acting as a bloc to keep nationalist reps out in the cold.

This is awful petty stuff and the ludicrous amount of councils should've been scrapped long ago. The new ones which will take their place give us an opportunity to start off on the right foot - but this will come through legislation rather than relying on unionist good faith.

DipStick McSwindler · 10-09-2012 11:28am

This post has been deleted.

Fenian Army · 10-09-2012 1:15pm

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Fenian Army wrote: »

Last year we had a UVF orchestrated attack on the Short Strand. Last night we had UVF orchestrated riots in which over 40 PSNI members were injured.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/24342

There have been many other incidents too.

All from an organization which has supposedly "civilianized" and decommissioned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/27/the-truth-about-belfasts-riots

Last year the Unionist politicians fell over themselves to enter into dialog with the UVF, they got what they wanted, now we have orchestrate violence to try and get the same again, with regards to parades.

I thought we were supposed to be living in a new era, or are unionists as tied up with and ambivalent towards loyalist paramilitaries as ever?

There has been a serious lack of outright, meaningful condemnation of the UVF from Unionists.

What about Alan Ryans funeral?

Pot and Kettle lads

What about it?

The RIRA never decomissioned, or to use the uvfs lingo, civilianised. The IRA on the other hand no longer exist.

getzls · 11-09-2012 12:36am

Fenian Army wrote: »

What about it?

The RIRA never decomissioned, or to use the uvfs lingo, civilianised. The IRA on the other hand no longer exist.

But some of their members and weapons exit in another guise.

The UVF

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