Is satellite TV legal In Ireland and if so since when ?

Ulsterman 1690 · 14-08-2005 4:29pm #1

Back in the 1985 I remember visiting an exibition about Satellite TV in the Republic (This being the days when one needed a rotatable dish at least 1.2m across and costing over a grand to get the likes of Music Box, Mirror Vision, Teleclub and a single Sky Channel) and being told that Satellite dishes were technically illegal in Ireland (In the UK there was a £10 dish licence which hardly anyone paid and was eventually abolished) although virtually nobody paid any heed of the 1926 Wireless telegraphy act (This being the days of Radio's Nova, Sunshine, Q102 etc

) and as far as I know nobody was ever prosecuted for owning a satellite dish

Sometime later I remember reading that Cable operators were to be allowed to carry just two satellite channels but that private dishes were to remain illegal although the government were considering some kind of licencing scheme for areas without cable franchises.

Then Astra arrived and houses across the land spouted 80cm dishes without any consideration of these rather pathetic laws (which it must be said were somewhat reminicent of some repressive backward dictatorship like Iran :mad: )

But did the government actually come to their senses or is it one of the many medieval pieces of legislation which are universally ignored and forgotten like Compulsary church attendance on Christmas day or the ban on snogging in public :rolleyes:

Solair · 14-08-2005 6:05pm

As far as I'm aware there has never been any Irish legislation with regard to recieving satellite television in the Republic of Ireland. However, there were plenty of UK channels at the time who would tell you that it was illegal to recieve their broadcasts outside the UK as they had no licence to broadcast into the Republic of Ireland or anywhere outside of the UK.

There may have been all sorts of weird revenue-generating RTE-protecting ideas floated in the 1980s but, none of them were ever implemented by the Dáil.

I mean, at one stage the Labour party proposed the state should own a % of ALL radio stations!

The British Government made a serious attempt to regulate satellite TV to a ridiculous level in the early days some of the requirements and restrictions imposed on BSB bordered on the ridiculous. E.g. that they had to duplicate all of their satellites with back up satellites! They ended up launching a totally over-specified system that could only carry a handful of channels and would never be even remotely commercially viable.

Sky just bypassed the UK bureaucracy completely and used Astra using European Union legislation to get past it.

There wern't even really any cable licences in Ireland in the 1980s. The cable companies rebroadcast BBC & ITV without paying any royalties until relatively recently and carried quite a few satellite channels. It was certainly more than one or two.

I would reckon that the information that you were getting at that satellite fare was completely inaccurate nonsense as there's nothing on the books about it!

Are you sure that RTE hadn't infiltrated the event and were going around trying to scare people off satellite

--- Also, compulsary church attendence on Christmas day would be unconstitutional south of the border... The Govt. can pretty much do with it likes in the UK provided it can get it through parliament and past the house of Lords (which they can just override anyway)

South of the Border the Government's not quite so all-powerful and faces a whole plethera of checks and balances, legal challanges etc etc.. designed to prevent hegemony.

Also, the Proportional Representation system in use down here tends to keep them on their toes as majorities in parliament are a rare thing. The multiseat constituencies keep them keen too. Any slip ups and you've up to 4 other TDs (MPs) representing the same constituency to make you look like a complete eegit!
----

But, to keep on topic.. Satellite TV's not regulated here at all.

vsat · 14-08-2005 8:26pm

Ulsterman,
you are quit correct, the Irish Gov did make satellite dishes illigal in 1985, I worked for the Satellite store in dawson st dublin, and had to close down due to ruling,
also had to cancell add campain on RTE, due to this ruling.
By the way ray burke was the minister for communications, or his brother.
The good old days, 1.8 metre cosmos antenna, Blue bomb,(L.N.B) Luxor push button Rx.

Intelsat 27.5 west Premiere, screen sports,Mirror vision.
Eutelsat 13,east.
price for one dish,one rx,one L.N.B.
£2500.00 plus vat.
fixed antenna, az/el mount.

Solair · 14-08-2005 8:29pm

I suppose Ray Bourke owned several cable companies at the time ? LOL

Looked through legislation passed at the time. There were certainly no acts of parliament. Was it an odd reinterpretation of the existing broadcasting legislation ?

or some ministerial order?

Or was it a local dublin planning permission thing ?

Sponge Bob · 14-08-2005 8:35pm

we are all doomed so, its still the law (if its true

)

the dish had to be less than 5m in size OR ELSE you had to get planning permission, is that it ??? , see this 1983 regulation ?

Solair · 14-08-2005 8:37pm

Well, at the time many satellite dishes did look like radio telescopes and would probabally have had structural implications if you attempted to install them on your roof

Sponge Bob · 14-08-2005 8:44pm

That limit is 0.6 m in the UK , they have much smaller houses there than we do

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2005 10:06pm

Anything over 1m requires planning permission.

Ulsterman 1690 · 14-08-2005 10:39pm

Solair in the first sentance you admit that you are not AWARE of any legislation concerning satellite TV and yet go on to poo poo just about everything I say

Yet the legislation is there Its called the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1926 and it along with subsequent amending legislation such as the
Broadcasting Act 1990 does indeed cover Satellite TV. The 1926 act makes it an offence to posses equipment for transmitting OR RECIEVING wireless telegraphy (It doesnt distinguish between satellite or terrestrial not suprising given that its a 1926 act) without either a licence to posses such apparatus (such as the one covering TV sets) or an exemption order issued by the minister (such as the one covering radio sets) The 1990 act covers things like hacking encryption and unauthorised reception of subscription services. Oh and there are regulations concerning the licencing of Cable TV ("wired broadcast relay systems") dating back to at least 1974

I would reckon that the information that you were getting at that satellite fare was completely inaccurate nonsense as there's nothing on the books about it!

If that was the only source I had for the info Id be questioning it too but I heard the same thing at the time from at least two other fairly reliable sources

Dont want to dwell on this too much since its off topic but since you mention it

Also, compulsary church attendence on Christmas day would be unconstitutional south of the border

Maybe but like the 1736 Witchcraft act its still on the Statute books and will be until the Government repeal it or until someone with the time, resources and determination get it overturned in the supreme court

South of the Border the Government's not quite so all-powerful and faces a whole plethera of checks and balances, legal challanges etc etc.. designed to prevent hegemony.

It didnt stop Ray Burke though did it :rolleyes:

Spongebob I think your 5 metre satellite dish regulation applie(s/d) only to €ircom (nee Terrible-con Eireann)

Sponge Bob · 14-08-2005 10:52pm

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Spongebob I think your 5 metre satellite dish regulation applie(s/d) only to €ircom (nee Terrible-con Eireann)

dude , I was trying to find out what legislation / regulation would have been passed or come into effect in 1985 (when you say you went to that show) and that was the only likely candidate.

BrianD · 15-08-2005 12:04am

There was no ban on satellite dishes - if there was please post the ruling/order and the repeal of the ruling/order. Perhaps the boss of your store was spinning you a yarn for closing down. I'm sure at the time there was a bit of scaremongering at the time by vested interests as satellite technology would effectively bypass traditional transmission means. I have no doubt that RTE would have refused to carry a TV ad campaign for the satelite store. Up to recently, they have generally refused anything that they deemed competitive.

You are mis-interpreting the 1926 act as there is no difference between a TV aerial connected to a Tv set and a satellite dish connected to the same set. Once you had your TV licence you could connect what you liked to it as long as complied with planning requirements.

jmcc · 15-08-2005 1:08am

vsat wrote:

Ulsterman,
you are quit correct, the Irish Gov did make satellite dishes illigal in 1985, I worked for the Satellite store in dawson st dublin, and had to close down due to ruling,

Wasn't that John May's operation? From what I remember of the situation at the time, officially you needed a licence for a satellite tv dish but it was not possible to get a licence for a dish because it did not exist. FG were in power at the time and Jim Mitchell was the minister for posts and telegraphs. I also remember an interview with said minister and some guy from RTE where they were both pigheaddedly ignorant and totally oblivious to the way that satellite TV would change television.

also had to cancell add campain on RTE, due to this ruling.
By the way ray burke was the minister for communications, or his brother.
The good old days, 1.8 metre cosmos antenna, Blue bomb,(L.N.B) Luxor push button Rx.

Don't forget the NEC gear and Doug Armstrong's 1M8 dishes with the cloned Chapparall feed.

Intelsat 27.5 west Premiere, screen sports,Mirror vision.
Eutelsat 13,east.
price for one dish,one rx,one L.N.B.
£2500.00 plus vat.
fixed antenna, az/el mount.

Though strangely there was a lot of interest in the late night movies on Filmnet.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 15-08-2005 1:31am

Solair wrote:

The British Government made a serious attempt to regulate satellite TV to a ridiculous level in the early days some of the requirements and restrictions imposed on BSB bordered on the ridiculous. E.g. that they had to duplicate all of their satellites with back up satellites! They ended up launching a totally over-specified system that could only carry a handful of channels and would never be even remotely commercially viable.

That had more to do with the WARC77 specifications and bandwidth/slot allocations. By the time that BSB launched, the technology and industry had moved on so far from the scenario envisaged in 1977 that it BSB was bound to have problems. The other aspect was that BSB had a management full of cretins who hadn't a clue about pay television. It has a technologically superior system (D-MAC) and a Conditional Access system based on the US VideoCipher system. But it was beaten to the market by Sky and got into a bidding war for movie rights.

Sky just bypassed the UK bureaucracy completely and used Astra using European Union legislation to get past it.

It was a lot more complex than that. Sky launched in PAL and was accessible on ordinary televisions. There was a famous Newsnight clash between John Gau of BSB and one of the people from Sky. Gau produced a SCART to show how the decoders could interface easily but the Sky guy pointed out, rightly, that the majority of TVs and VCRs in the UK did not have SCART connections at that time.

There wern't even really any cable licences in Ireland in the 1980s. The cable companies rebroadcast BBC & ITV without paying any royalties until relatively recently and carried quite a few satellite channels. It was certainly more than one or two.

Were you even around in the eighties? Ireland had one of the biggest cable nets in Europe in Dublin and had a major percentage of the population on cable.

I would reckon that the information that you were getting at that satellite fare was completely inaccurate nonsense as there's nothing on the books about it!

Well I remember trying to get funding to start a factory building satellite TV gear and due to the idiots in government at the time, it was not possible to get any EI/IDA funding because of the lack of any coherent legal framework. There was a lot of rubbish presented as fact at some of these exhibitions but there was even a plan for an Irish DTH satellite tv service using the same orbital slot as BSB's (31W from what I remember).

Regards...jmcc

Sponge Bob · 15-08-2005 8:46am

jmcc wrote:

There was a lot of rubbish presented as fact at some of these exhibitions but there was even a plan for an Irish DTH satellite tv service using the same orbital slot as BSB's (31W from what I remember).

Does Ireland not have an orbital slot and/or frequency allocation for Sat services dating back to the 1980s but still unused ???

Tony · 15-08-2005 10:21am

Sponge Bob wrote:

Does Ireland not have an orbital slot and/or frequency allocation for Sat services dating back to the 1980s but still unused ???

Yes AFAIK a company called Atlantic satellite held tha franchise but did nothing with it

jmcc · 15-08-2005 6:25pm

Sponge Bob wrote:

Does Ireland not have an orbital slot and/or frequency allocation for Sat services dating back to the 1980s but still unused ???

Yep it was assigned some bandwidth on the 31W slot (same as the UK's slot). From what I remember, Ireland's bandwidth allocation was handed over to BSB as some part of deal. Ireland as a broadcast market was not viable then. These slots and bandwidth allocations were assigned in 1977 and were largely irrelevant by 1989 due to the advances in technology. Back then, the C-Band dishes were huge - over three metres.

Regards...jmcc

Ulsterman 1690 · 15-08-2005 7:14pm

Atlantic Satellites (no relation to Atlantic 252) were planning to broadcast into the UK using the Irish frequencies withere competing with BSB or complimenting them to provide a 10 channel service (which sounded like a big deal back in those days

) but after BSB collapsed they handed their licence back to the Irish Government Incidently a failed rival applicant for said licence was a company called Esat which later moved into the radio business (as Dublins 98FM) and later still moved into mobile phones (Digifone) and general telecommunications (Esat Telecom) and Internet (buying Ireland Online off the Postoffice) they eventually flogged off the mobile phone business to 02/Cellnet and the telecom/Internet business to BT

Capt'n Midnight · 15-08-2005 7:55pm

http://www.comreg.ie/about_us/default.asp?s=2&navid=129&nid=100105

Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926 (Section 3) (Exemption of Certain Fixed Satellite Receiving Earth Stations) Order, 2000. S.I. No. 273 of 2000.

To exempt certain transportable fixed satellite receiving earth stations from the requirement to be licensed under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926. Also to exempt fixed satellite receiving earth stations with antenna sizes less than 3.8m in the bands 10.7 to 11.7 GHz and 12.5 to 12.75 GHz, and less than 7.3m in the band 3.4 to 4.2 GHz, from the requirement to be licensed under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926.

Ulsterman 1690 · 15-08-2005 8:01pm

Thanks Capt'n Midnight Interesting that the change in the law didnt happen until 2000 :eek: :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob · 15-08-2005 11:41pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Also to exempt fixed satellite receiving earth stations with antenna sizes less than 3.8m in the bands 10.7 to 11.7 GHz and 12.5 to 12.75 GHz, and less than 7.3m in the band 3.4 to 4.2 GHz, from the requirement to be licensed under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926.

Capn, how the **** did Comreg come to the conclusion that Satellites were 'licenceable' in 1926 and continously thereafter until the year 2000 .

The 1926 act reads section 3 IIRC

"no person shall keep or have in his possession anywhere in Saorstát Eireann or in any ship or aircraft to which this section applies any apparatus for wireless telegraphy save in so far as such keeping or possession is authorised by a licence"

but radio tv and sat are not telegraphy devices really . Some of us even remember how that 1926 act was enforced when the breaker breaker mob appeared around 1979 .

A separate 'receive only' licence was created in 1960 with the broadcasting act, we still have the TV licence of course . This receive only licence was created and 'inserted ' into the 1926 act (but is IN the 1960 act ) and reads.

"

SUBSECTION AND SECTIONS INSERTED IN WIRELESS TELEGRAPHY ACT, 1926.
PART I

Subsection inserted after Subsection (1) of Section 5

(1A) The Minister may by order (which he may at any time revoke by a further order) declare that the grant of licences under this Act in respect of apparatus for receiving only, and the collection on behalf of the Minister of fees on such grants, shall be carried out by Radio Éireann and, so long as any such order remains in force,—"

Which kinda means RTE gets to (Must) collect the cash for every receive only licence but the dept of p&t (now comms) gets the transmit licence cash .

Even in 1960 the sats were not reversed into the 1926 act because they still did not exist in 1960 did they ????? although at least one civil servant must have seen Flash Gordon in the cinema at least once .

The government also gave RTE stop and search powers for radios. They can still send weather girls to search my crib for a radio if they want, its perfectly legal

"(13) The Minister may by order (which he may at any time revoke by a further order) declare that Radio Éireann shall have all powers appropriate for the investigation and detection of interference with wireless telegraphy apparatus for receiving only and, whenever such an order is for the time being in force,—"

the only way that the government coulda regulated Sat was to bring in a licence to have the receiver , like we had a radio licence and then a tv licence ....but they never did bring in that licence in did they.

Ulsterman 1690 · 15-08-2005 11:55pm

but radio tv and sat are not telegraphy devices really

Read the definition of Wireless Telegraphy in the 1926 Act (As amended by the 1988 act) and it will all start to make sense (In an ironic kind of way :rolleyes: )

1926 Definition

the expression "wireless telegraphy" means and includes any system of communicating messages, spoken words, music, images, pictures, prints, or other communications, sounds, signs, or signals by means of radiated electro-magnetic waves originating in an apparatus or device constructed for the purpose of originating such communications, sounds, signs, or signals;

the expression "apparatus for wireless telegraphy" means apparatus for sending and receiving or for sending only or for receiving only messages, spoken words, music, images, pictures, prints, or other communications, sounds, signs, or signals by wireless telegraphy and includes any part of such apparatus and any article primarily designed for use as part of such apparatus and not capable of being conveniently used for any other purpose;

1988 amendment

"'apparatus for wireless telegraphy' means apparatus capable of emitting and receiving, or emitting only or receiving only, over paths which are not provided by any material substance constructed or arranged for that purpose, electric, magnetic or electro-magnetic energy, of a frequency not exceeding 3 million megahertz, whether or not such energy serves the conveying (whether they are actually received or not) of communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals, or the actuation or control of machinery or apparatus, and includes any part of such apparatus, or any article capable of being used as part of such apparatus, and also includes any other apparatus which is associated with, or electrically coupled to, apparatus capable of so emitting such energy";

"'wireless telegraphy' means the emitting and receiving, or emitting only or receiving only, over paths which are not provided by any material substance constructed or arranged for that purpose, of electric, magnetic or electro-magnetic energy of a frequency not exceeding 3 million megahertz, whether or not such energy serves the conveying (whether they are actually received or not) of communications, sounds, signs, visual images or signals, or the actuation or control of machinery or apparatus.".

The language used in such pieces of legislation is almost tragic comedy I bet you never realised you had a "wireless telegraphy recieving station" in your living room or a 'transportable satellite earth station" on your outside wall

Sponge Bob · 16-08-2005 12:14am

There is more, in between 1960 and 1988 came the 1976 act applicable in 1985.

The 1976 to 1988 definition is a howl but from 1976 on a TV was a wireless telegraphy device alright and inserted into the 1926 act 50 years late but shucks.

. Its section 18 .

18.—Section 2 of the Act of 1926 is hereby amended by—

( a ) the substitution for "radiated electro-magnetic waves" of "emission, over paths which are not provided by any material substance constructed or arranged for that purpose, of electric, magnetic or electro-magnetic energy" in the definition of "wireless telegraphy", and

( b ) by the addition of the following to the section:

"For the purposes of this Act, any apparatus which—

( a ) is electrically coupled to wireless telegraphy apparatus, and

( b ) is used in receiving and conveying messages, sounds or visual images sent by wireless telegraphy, shall be regarded as being wireless telegraphy apparatus.",

and the definition of "wireless telegraphy", as so amended, is set out in the Table to this section.

TABLE

The expression "wireless telegraphy" means and includes any system of communicating messages, spoken words, music, images, pictures, prints, or other communications, sounds, signs, or signals by means of emission, over paths which are not provided by any material substance constructed or arranged for that purpose, of electric, magnetic or electro-magnetic energy originating in an apparatus or device constructed for the purpose of originating such communications, sounds, signs, or signals.

Pictures, mmmmmmm, pictures and it looks like the hinterweb was covered too.

The pictures bit of the 1926 act was inserted in 1976 I make it but a 'receiver' could have been licenced post 1960 and RTE would have to have collected the fee from us .

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2005 12:50am

I've heard of someone getting away without a TV license because in court the inspector couldn't convince the judge that the device in question matched the legalese description.

1926 Definition
Quote and includes any part of such apparatus and any article primarily designed for use as part of such apparatus and not capable of being conveniently used for any other purpose; oh crap - looks like you need a license to have a TV aerial...

Ulsterman 1690 · 16-08-2005 6:48am

looks like you need a license to have a TV aerial

what if you claim your aerial is for FM radio ?
I guess the "convinently used for any other purpose" rules out needing a licence for a wire coat hanger

?

One thing the Irish legislation doesnt make provision for is handheld portable TV's Unless maybe you are expected to bringh your licence with you when you take your TV outside :rolleyes:

jmcc · 16-08-2005 7:18pm

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

One thing the Irish legislation doesnt make provision for is handheld portable TV's Unless maybe you are expected to bringh your licence with you when you take your TV outside :rolleyes:

And then there is the problem of streaming video on mobile phones.

Sometimes, I think that lawyers have difficulty dealing with technology beyond the 1500s.

Regards...jmcc

Zaphod · 16-08-2005 8:06pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Also to exempt fixed satellite receiving earth stations with antenna sizes less than 3.8m in the bands 10.7 to 11.7 GHz and 12.5 to 12.75 GHz, and less than 7.3m in the band 3.4 to 4.2 GHz, from the requirement to be licensed under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926.

So this implies that anyone with even Sky dish and digibox requires a licence.

Astra 2D:

11.720|H|Sky Travel|
|11.720|H|Sky Travel|
|11.720|H|Sky Travel|
|11.720|H|Sky Sport|
|11.720|H|E! |
|11.720|H|Jetix +1|
|11.720|H|Sky Travel|
|11.739|V|Living TV|
and so on up to 12.5GHz for about 500+ channels.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2005 8:12pm

Zaphod wrote:

So this implies that anyone with even Sky dish and digibox requires a licence.

I think you missed this bit - " exempt fixed satellite receiving earth stations with antenna sizes less than 3.8m"

Ulsterman 1690 · 16-08-2005 8:37pm

As I read it Zaphod is correct since the exemption is for dishes below that are smaller than 3.8m AND recieve transmissions in just the stated bands (Unless of course theres some other order amending the permitted range of frequencies)

BTW before anyone asks the exemption is just for the purposes of the Wireless Telegraphy Act and not the planning act so you probably still need to ask the council before you can put up that nice 3.7 m dish

Anyway on the sidetopic of wireless telegraphic legaleese that doesnt make sense heres one from 1972 that is supposed to exempt broadcast RADIO recievers from licencing

EXEMPTION OF SOUND BROADCASTING RECEIVERS ORDER, 1972

The following class of apparatus for wireless telegraphy, namely, apparatus designed solely for receiving sound (but not visual images) broadcast by a broadcasting station, is hereby declared to be a class of apparatus for wireless telegraphy to which section 3 of the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1926 (No. 45 of 1926), is not to apply

Ah but what about an apparatus that can do other things besides "receiving sound broadcast by a broadcasting station" such as say playing CD's, recording tapes or waking you up in the morning ?????

Zaphod · 16-08-2005 9:12pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I think you missed this bit - " exempt fixed satellite receiving earth stations with antenna sizes less than 3.8m"

I think I didn't.

BHG · 17-08-2005 5:39am

jmcc wrote:

And then there is the problem of streaming video on mobile phones. Sometimes, I think that lawyers have difficulty dealing with technology beyond the 1500s.

jmcc what happens when carphonewarehouse sell DVB-H mobiles, can the postmistress ask the youth in the sweet shop for a TV licence? as DVB-H is not 3G streamed clips but broadcast TV signal I think she could.

Interesting thread, you guys should write a book about this stuff,, like when the S in BSB was not Sky. When Esat was not even in Radio.. then he set up radio 2000... when May Moore and Prendergast (John Harry & Sammy) were big names in TV

and if S.I. No. 403/1983 is still valid in planning it helps me on a few fronts, it would also mean a phone box within 10M of the boundary wall of a house would need planning.. how many do? to me phone boxes are a means for glass fragments to litter the paths of our estates, one kids spend on mobile would be more than the take in one box from a general public with so much mobile a 2x2 hut with phone just does not get used that much any more.

bfn bhg

Sponge Bob · 17-08-2005 9:21am

does an E10 top up card become an unlawful form of TV licence , leading to RTE and the Special branch periodically raiding Voodoofone HQ ?

Is satellite TV legal In Ireland and if so since when ?

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