Are you a masher or a spinner (pros/cons)

pprendeville · 09-04-2014 5:46am #1

Have noticed some interesting stats recently when doing workouts on the turbo. When I'm doing intervals I like to mix the cadences a bit and do some at a low RPM, 65-75 and some at a higher RPM, say 110-120 or 120-130RPM. Have only just started using Trainerroad with virtual power and I would deem it to be fairly accurate as I did some testing last year in Trinity on something like a Wattbike with very accurate power. From perceived exertion alone I think the power readouts are pretty close +/-10W but that's beside the point.

Low Cadence
I find the perceived effort to be higher but my HR rate is telling me otherwise. Also I find it more difficult to keep a consistent power. It's jumping constantly.

High Cadence
Conversely, perceived effort is a little lower but HR is higher and I seem to be able to keep a much steadier power output to +/-3W easily enough (doing intervals at about 120%FTP).

Curious to hear other peoples experience.

smacl · 09-04-2014 8:39am

Not a competitive cyclist, so may not be relevant, but for longer hilly cycles particularly, I find spinning saves my knees. On the turbo, I usually have an average cadence of 85 to 90rpm over half an hour, 83-85 for an hour. Tried to bring it up to 100rpm for the half hour, but haven't got better than 96rpm on one of the hilly tacx vr courses. Power output is seems more consistent at high cadences, but lower overall than mashing a higher gear.

dancrowley · 09-04-2014 8:51am

I guess i'm a spinner. I'll keep between 80-100 rpm, generally. Like smacl said, it's easier on the knees and allows me to go further.

pprendeville · 09-04-2014 8:54am

92 seems to be my sweetspot. Anything below it and i feel I'm labouring.

deandean · 09-04-2014 8:56am

I am was a masher, it cost me a couple of hundred in physio sessions for my knees last year (kneecaps were grinding or summit), now I'm about mid-way between masher and spinner & my knees are AOK

Morrisseeee · 09-04-2014 9:32am

Ullrich or a Lance ?

Remember that the masher won the TDF, the spinner won.........nothing !

mcgratheoin · 09-04-2014 10:02am

pprendeville wrote: »

Low Cadence
I find the perceived effort to be higher but my HR rate is telling me otherwise. Also I find it more difficult to keep a consistent power. It's jumping constantly.

High Cadence
Conversely, perceived effort is a little lower but HR is higher and I seem to be able to keep a much steadier power output to +/-3W easily enough (doing intervals at about 120%FTP).

Curious to hear other peoples experience.

I may be wrong, but as far as I understand it, doesn't a low cadence place more of the workload on your muscles versus a high cadence placing the workload on your cardiovascular system. Hence when you're mashing a high gear your heart rate may not be as high but your legs are more likely to start hurting and it may feel more painful. In a high cadence your cardiovascular system is taking more of the load so your heart rate will be higher but your muscles may not be hurting as much.

From my own point of view, I'm trying actively to be more of a spinner - my average cadence for the headstrong spin at the weekend was 83, including all the non-pedalling downhill bits. If i take a 10km on the flat at the beginning where there are no pedalling breaks, my average was 91. I try to pedal in and around 90-110 if possible

lennymc · 09-04-2014 10:36am

i used to be a masher, but now am more of a spinner, avg about 90ish on a spin. In racing im sometimes sitting at over 100 - 110 (im sure others go faster) and my max is about 150 in a sprint. Sometimes i will mash in the 60-70 range. I find I tire less quickly spinning verses mashing but i think you should be able to do a bit of both.

pprendeville · 09-04-2014 12:57pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

I may be wrong, but as far as I understand it, doesn't a low cadence place more of the workload on your muscles versus a high cadence placing the workload on your cardiovascular system. Hence when you're mashing a high gear your heart rate may not be as high but your legs are more likely to start hurting and it may feel more painful. In a high cadence your cardiovascular system is taking more of the load so your heart rate will be higher but your muscles may not be hurting as much.

From my own point of view, I'm trying actively to be more of a spinner - my average cadence for the headstrong spin at the weekend was 83, including all the non-pedalling downhill bits. If i take a 10km on the flat at the beginning where there are no pedalling breaks, my average was 91. I try to pedal in and around 90-110 if possible

That makes perfect sense. Cheers. Another odd thing I remembered from last year was in the last stage of the Wexford 2 day I started to cramp the
last time up the last hill. Was spinning away and all of a sudden I had to slow down and shifted into a smaller gear which naturally reduced my cadence, got out of the saddle and was ok. Can you explain that one for me?

pprendeville · 09-04-2014 1:00pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ullrich or a Lance ?

Remember that the masher won the TDF, the spinner won.........nothing !

Dangerous territory there. Would like to comment on Ullrich but afraid of a ban.

Inquitus · 09-04-2014 1:06pm

Spinner generally, the lower the cadence the more the power jumps depending on how hard you stamp on the pedals, I find once you get up to 90+ the power you output seems more consistent to me, probably due to the fact its sampling the data every 1 second and at lower cadence that's more prone to variance depending on where in the pedal stroke you are. Anyways that's what I have surmised using my Powertap on the Turbo with Trainer Road.

jane82 · 09-04-2014 1:15pm

I just cycle to build the leg muscles. I go up big hills in big geRs and eat alot of protein. I find this builds the legs great. The lads that pass by me like im stationary are moving their legs way faster than me on lighter gears. They usually have freakishly little waists as well though which Id say is part of it.
I read somewhere that between 90-100 rpm is the ideal for energy management. 3 spins in 2 seconds.

witty username · 09-04-2014 1:17pm

pprendeville wrote: »

Dangerous territory there. Would like to comment on Ullrich but afraid of a ban.

Ulrich has admitted to doping and besides, there is plenty of DNA evidence to back it all up.

Anyway, he didn't mash as much as was made out, that was pro-armstrong waffle.

shaka · 09-04-2014 1:44pm

Was a masher too , after a bad year back and knee wise going over to the spinner side , finding it hard.

seamus · 09-04-2014 1:52pm

A spinner on the flat, when climbing it very much depends on my mood. If I feel rested and strong I'll mash that bad boy, but typically I don't, so I spin it all the way.

Hmmzis · 09-04-2014 2:06pm

I'm both and something in between. Really depends on the terrain I think. On the flats I'd be rolling around at 80-90rpm, once I hit a hill goes down to 70-80, in case of very steep hills it'll be 60rpm or in case of Kilmashogue lane I'll be just happy to have the cranks turning at all. On descents or flats with big tailwinds I'd be spinning 100-110rpm. The max rpm I don't know, the cadence meter I have tops out at 180rpm.

mcgratheoin · 09-04-2014 2:28pm

pprendeville wrote: »

That makes perfect sense. Cheers. Another odd thing I remembered from last year was in the last stage of the Wexford 2 day I started to cramp the last time up the last hill. Was spinning away and all of a sudden I had to slow down and shifted into a smaller gear which naturally reduced my cadence, got out of the saddle and was ok. Can you explain that one for me?

In a word - No.

I find if i get a calf cramp that getting out of the saddle will help, mainly because I can stretch out the muscle much more when standing.

happytramp · 09-04-2014 2:39pm

I spin like mad all the time. I probably look ridiculous but my knees hurt if I shift into the big chainring.

eeeee · 09-04-2014 2:41pm

Out and out masher. I have never had a low geared bike, and over the last 10 years none of my bikes had working small gears so I operated in the top 3 all the time, or in the case of one just the top one gear for 5 years. I would like to develop my cadence more, the track stuff is helping. Lower gears on my bike are going to be revealed tomorrow I hope (Thank you cdaly_!) and I can work more on it then. I do like the power I have, I am only starting to realize I have any as I get out into groups more.

Stupid question, do you lose power as you go up cadence wise? This would be my fear. Can yo have both comfortably? The power is hard won!

mcgratheoin · 09-04-2014 3:02pm

gadetra wrote: »

Stupid question, do you lose power as you go up cadence wise? This would be my fear. Can yo have both comfortably? The power is hard won!

no stupid questions, only stupid people (who don't ask questions)

power is not necessarily lost when increasing cadence. Power is Work/Time, and work is Force x Distance. In simple terms for cadence calculations, the Distance value is equal to the number of revolutions of your pedals. Basically it means that if you spin twice as fast, you only have to apply half the force to the pedals for the same power output.

eeeee · 09-04-2014 3:04pm

mcgratheoin wrote: »

no stupid questions, only stupid people (who don't ask questions)

power is not necessarily lost when increasing cadence. Power is Work/Time, and work is Force x Distance. In simple terms for cadence calculations, the Distance value is equal to the number of revolutions of your pedals. Basically it means that if you spin twice as fast, you only have to apply half the force to the pedals for the same power output.

Ahh I get you now. A lightbulb just went off in my head. Thanks for that! I shall go forth and attempt to spin without fear!

Harrybelafonte · 09-04-2014 3:23pm

gadetra wrote: »

Stupid question, do you lose power as you go up cadence wise? This would be my fear. Can yo have both comfortably? The power is hard won!

Yes. Think about track. We wanna get up to a certain speed on a single gear you have to be able to use power to get the whole thing moving as quickly as possible, say a 50x15 in pursuit, then you have to keep lifting and lifting it and then spin what is a pretty small gear realistically at high enough cadence to keep the highest speed possible.

Then for a Flying 200 you'd go bigger gear, maybe 50x14, and even though you get much more time to spin up you're still using power to spin it for as long as possible, as high as possible.

Mycroft H · 09-04-2014 3:56pm

If I mash, I'll very quickly feel my knees complaining

Brian? · 09-04-2014 5:15pm

pprendeville wrote: »

Dangerous territory there. Would like to comment on Ullrich but afraid of a ban.

Why? Ullrich admitted blood doping.

He wasn't a "masher" either. He was a beast.

As to the original question, I more naturally spin a lower cadence. When I was a young fella I thought that using the small ring was an admission of failure.

These days I know better and try to keep a nice smooth cadence. Not that I have a cadence sensor, I used one for a while and found it very distracting.

morana · 09-04-2014 5:40pm

I always was a spinner!

cycleoin86 · 09-04-2014 9:06pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ullrich or a Lance ?

Remember that the masher won the TDF, the spinner won.........nothing !

Tell that to froomy... I think I heard / read that he was spinning 105 when he was attacking on the big alpine climbs (as oppossed to the SMALL (!) alpine climbs)

XtotheZ · 09-04-2014 9:36pm

small gears when in the bunch to save my quads.

Big gears on the attack. That said I dont grind, just relevetivly nice cadence nothing special

I train in big gears aswell, to the point that if im going up a climb and i start to feel a loss of speed I drop her down another gear and start pushing harder. Only way to train

eeeee · 10-04-2014 12:56am

XtotheZ wrote: »

small gears when in the bunch to save my quads.

Big gears on the attack. That said I dont grind, just relevetivly nice cadence nothing special

I train in big gears aswell, to the point that if im going up a climb and i start to feel a loss of speed I drop her down another gear and start pushing harder. Only way to train

Why? What advantage is it?

pprendeville · 10-04-2014 3:04am

Brian? wrote: »

Why? Ullrich admitted blood doping.

He wasn't a "masher" either. He was a beast.

As to the original question, I more naturally spin a lower cadence. When I was a young fella I thought that using the small ring was an admission of failure.

These days I know better and try to keep a nice smooth cadence. Not that I have a cadence sensor, I used one for a while and found it very distracting.

Oops, seem to have missed that confession. Like Lances tweet after it though.

"Jan Ullrich? Warm hearted. Amazing athlete. Great competitor. Loved toeing the line with you my friend."

fat bloke · 10-04-2014 3:24pm

Natural spinner here. Ain't got the power for mashing

mamax · 10-04-2014 3:45pm

Spinner 99% of the time but go hard downhill, my knees would give up if I mashed any more than that

XtotheZ · 10-04-2014 4:25pm

gadetra wrote: »

Why? What advantage is it?

Builds power in the legs. Think of it like a triangle with speed on the top and cadence and power on either side. Cadence is on a limited range ~~100rpm lets say, in our case to ride fast its all about the gears your able to ride on. So in that sense riding 30-50rpm up climbs in the biggest gears is the only way to do.

Thats in training keep in mind.

eeeee · 10-04-2014 9:13pm

XtotheZ wrote: »

Builds power in the legs. Think of it like a triangle with speed on the top and cadence and power on either side. Cadence is on a limited range ~~100rpm lets say, in our case to ride fast its all about the gears your able to ride on. So in that sense riding 30-50rpm up climbs in the biggest gears is the only way to do.

Thats in training keep in mind.

Ok that's interesting. I train the same as yourself, by accident rather than design really

But I get what you mean. I think! My power is ok, could be better, but I could do with more endurance, and spinning helps to build this up I think? I may need more balance in my training. Track has really helped with this.

(also I don't know how many more years my knees will take!)

XtotheZ · 10-04-2014 9:28pm

gadetra wrote: »

Ok that's interesting. I train the same as yourself, by accident rather than design really But I get what you mean. I think! My power is ok, could be better, but I could do with more endurance, and spinning helps to build this up I think? I may need more balance in my training. Track has really helped with this.

(also I don't know how many more years my knees will take!)

When the coach first said to do it, last winter, i hated it and thought it was pointless but kept at it nevertheless. but you really see the benefit when your at full form and done it semi religiously since late decemebr this season.

The way I always think of it, is when Philipe Gilbert won the world championship in 2012 he was the only rider to ride the Cauberg in the 53 chainring, or so i heard

eeeee · 10-04-2014 10:07pm

XtotheZ wrote: »

When the coach first said to do it, last winter, i hated it and thought it was pointless but kept at it nevertheless. but you really see the benefit when your at full form and done it semi religiously since late decemebr this season.

Do you mean spinning or mashing? Sorry if I'm being dim

crosstownk · 10-04-2014 10:14pm

I'm a spinner - I always have been. I find it enjoyable and I feel more in control.

However, I do mash to some extent when climbing rather than changing to a lower gear but too much mashing makes my legs burn. Like a previous poster I also mash downhill but mainly because I prefer to get into a higher gear so I can concentrate on reaching escape velocity (hasn't happened...yet).

XtotheZ · 11-04-2014 6:02pm

gadetra wrote: »

Do you mean spinning or mashing? Sorry if I'm being dim

sorry, mashing :P

Type 17 · 11-04-2014 7:39pm

Riding a BMX for most of my teens, including riding it 5.5 km each way to school, and to BMX races, on a 44/16, means I've been a spinner from a young age.
Even today, my daily hack runs a 42 single on the front with a 13/21 on the rear, and I spin around 90.

Mashing is like driving a car in fifth gear at 50km/h - it'll do it, but it doesn't really like it, and you're not in the engine's power-band...

Ironlungs · 12-04-2014 8:26pm

I used to mash on climbs especially, but even on inclines of any sort, and I think it has contributed to establishing a decent powerbase. More recently I have been inclined to spin, and found that my times were unaffected. I also come over the crest of hills able to get the power down again quickly as opposed to having my legs flooded with lactic acid and having to recover. I try to spin as much a possible now, and only give in to a bit of mashing when I know I shouldn't be giving in to a climb.

cdaly_ · 13-04-2014 1:25pm

Ironlungs wrote: »

I also come over the crest of hills able to get the power down again quickly as opposed to having my legs flooded with lactic acid and having to recover.

I'm a spinner but I thought this was just the result of getting generally fitter...

XtotheZ · 13-04-2014 4:56pm

Ironlungs wrote: »

I used to mash on climbs especially, but even on inclines of any sort, and I think it has contributed to establishing a decent powerbase. More recently I have been inclined to spin, and found that my times were unaffected. I also come over the crest of hills able to get the power down again quickly as opposed to having my legs flooded with lactic acid and having to recover. I try to spin as much a possible now, and only give in to a bit of mashing when I know I shouldn't be giving in to a climb.

you can put up with lactic acid but what i find when i spin is i need much more oxegen and where as lactic is just pain without oxegen you aint goin no where

pprendeville · 17-04-2014 11:52am

“For the better part of a century, athletes and physiologists alike have considered lactic acid a primary cause of fatigue during high-intensity exercise and referred to it as a “waste product” of muscle metabolism. But now this way of thinking has changed, as scientists have learned that this substance we produce in large quantities during exercise, especially highly intense exercise, is not a cause of fatigue and actually helps to prevent it.”

Excerpt From: Cordain, Loren. “The Paleo Diet for Athletes.” Rodale Inc., 2012-01-08T08:00:00+00:00. iBooks.

Here's a good article explaining cadence: http://blog.trainerroad.com/does-ftp-change-with-cadence/

Are you a masher or a spinner (pros/cons)

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