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Kidnapped Iranian scientist free.

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  • 14-07-2010 7:32pm
    #1
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭


    Shahram Amiri, an Iranian scientist who was abducted by the CIA at gunpoint is now free. Yet another dose of American hypocrisy. Imagine if Iranian agents abducted an American scientist by gunpoint in another sovereign country? They would be bellowing about it for months.

    In a hilarious act of defense - The US state department said that he was there of "his own free will".
    "A white van stopped in front of me... They told me in Farsi that they were part of another group of pilgrims and said 'We are going towards a mosque and we will be happy to take you as well'," he said.

    "When I opened the door to get in and sit down, the person at the back put a gun to my side and said 'Please be quiet, don't make any noise'.

    "As I opened the door, one of the passengers pulled out a gun and told me to be quiet. They gave me an injection and when I came around I was in a big plane. I was blindfolded. It was probably a military plane."

    He said he was taken to "American territory" and put under intense psychological pressure to accept $10 million to make a video saying he had defected from Iran.
    He was then allowed to settle in Tucson, Arizona, and live relatively freely on condition he did not talk about his abduction.


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    #2
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,498 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Links?


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    #3
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sand wrote: »
    Links?

    http://news.google.ie/news/more?hl=en&q=iranian+scientist&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dIARRJrxwQgWPVMr2fDkAfWQZ4qvM&ei=7wU-TNOoD8yQjAe2-cD4Aw&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&cd=1&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQqgIoADAA


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    #4
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    the truth might more complicated. Say if said scientist did in fact defect and now wants to return to to Iran to protect his family, what better ruse then to say he was abducted. Iran saves face and now has to protect him as a national hero.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #5
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    silverharp wrote: »
    the truth might more complicated. Say if said scientist did in fact defect and now wants to return to to Iran to protect his family, what better ruse then to say he was abducted. Iran saves face and now has to protect him as a national hero.

    Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened.


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    #6
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭donaghs


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what happened.

    In the Cold War family were often used as blackmail against defectors. More about it here:
    http://www.pbs.org/redfiles/kgb/debrief/k_brief_ter_keys.htm

    Often when possible people tried to smuggle their families out to the West with them.

    We may never know the truth of this case, but here's an even more bizarre defection/kidnapping story from the Cold War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Yurchenko


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    #7
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Its a very strange case. Frankly I don't know what to make of it all.


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    #8
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,498 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Shahram Amiri, an Iranian scientist who was abducted by the CIA at gunpoint...put under intense psychological pressure to accept $10 million...He was then allowed to settle in Tucson, Arizona, and live relatively freely

    Carlsberg dont do extraordinary renditions, but if they did...


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    #9
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    This is a really odd case. I have no clue who did what to whom. Maybe he was kidnapped or defected and now wants to protect his family. Its just a very very strange case.


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    #10
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Eh, why would the US offer $10 million to a random Iranian scientist to defect? I really don't get how this could be real..


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    #11
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Whatever the exact truth of this particular case, it is a timely reminder that sources might not be portraying a situation as it is, rather what their paymasters would like it to be.


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    #12
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    nesf wrote: »
    Eh, why would the US offer $10 million to a random Iranian scientist to defect? I really don't get how this could be real..

    well obviously the iranian's might lie and say he was a random scientist. if he is considered a prized asset the Americans might have been willing to pay that price.


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    #13
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    nacho libre wrote: »
    well obviously the iranian's might lie and say he was a random scientist. if he is considered a prized asset the Americans might have been willing to pay that price.

    If he was a prized asset he'd have been treated a lot better than being kidnapped at gunpoint..


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    #14
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    nesf wrote: »
    If he was a prized asset he'd have been treated a lot better than being kidnapped at gunpoint..

    That could be a cover story he felt compelled to put out due to pressure being put on his family back home. He could be a double agent for all we know. The point is we'll likely never know the truth of the situation


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    #15
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    nacho libre wrote: »
    That could be a cover story he felt compelled to put out due to pressure being put on his family back home. He could be a double agent for all we know. The point is we'll likely never know the truth of the situation

    Like I said, I doubt the story is real.


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    #16
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    nesf wrote: »
    Like I said, I doubt the story is real.

    Well the reality is in the spying game people are offered inducements to defect or give sensitive information. I would imagine the more high value an asset the greater the incentive might be. Indeed we saw an example of this in the Iraq war when the guy who betrayed Saddam's sons was rewarded handsomely by the Americans for doing so. So taking all this into account it wouldn't surprise me if the story is real.


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    #17
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    nacho libre wrote: »
    Well the reality is in the spying game people are offered inducements to defect or give sensitive information. I would imagine the more high value an asset the greater the incentive might be. Indeed we saw an example of this in the Iraq war when the guy who betrayed Saddam's sons was rewarded handsomely by the Americans for soing so. So taking all this into account it wouldn't surprise me if the story is real.

    Its quite possible that the scientist wanted asylum in the states and promised all kinds of secrets to get it but when he couldn't deliver he was left to twist in the wind and and had to grovel back to iran.


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    #18
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,252 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Did anyone catch just how he reportedly ended up at the Pakistani embassy?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38218013/ns/us_news-security/
    A Pakistani diplomat in Washington confirmed Amiri arrived at the building, which is separate from the main Pakistani embassy building and is located in Washington's Georgetown section, at 6:30 p.m. EDT Monday, and told Iranians there that he had been dropped by what he called his captors.

    I haven't yet heard an explanation that makes a lot of sense on this one.

    NTM


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    #19
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    The reason why we are all so confused is because, deep down, we naturally trust the American side and naturally distrust the Iranian side of the story.

    Yet, even though I am highly dubious of anything that comes out of the US as anything but carefully prepared propaganda, I am still pretty indoctrinated to believe the US line, definitely over the word of the Iranians..

    However.. one thing I've learnt after 911, is that we in the West, are absolute masters at subtle propaganda, and we in the West are often much more devious than we make out our supposed enemies to be.

    Either way, this is a big propaganda win for the Iranian government (sorry, regime)


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    #20
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    BBC Radio 4 this am give a more balanced view than the OP.

    They make sure, unlike the OP, to mention that the US strenuously deny any kidnap.

    Hilarious, I don't think so.


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    #21
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    They make sure, unlike the OP, to mention that the US strenuously deny any kidnap.

    Wrong. I think you'll find that I pointed out that they had stated that he was there of his own free will. :)


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    #22
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong. I think you'll find that I pointed out that they had stated that he was there of his own free will. :)

    Hilariously, you did,which I noted.

    Slightly less weight than strenuously denying i would have thought:rolleyes:


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    #23
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Hilariously, you did,which I noted.

    Slightly less weight than strenuously denying i would have thought:rolleyes:

    So you agree that I had pointed out that the US disputed his claims. I'm not sure what's to discuss. :)

    In any case, it's hardly beyond the US to kidnap a foreign scientist. Operation Paperclip ring a bell?


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    #24
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Shahram Amiri, an Iranian scientist who was abducted by the CIA at gunpoint is now free. Yet another dose of American hypocrisy. Imagine if Iranian agents abducted an American scientist by gunpoint in another sovereign country? They would be bellowing about it for months.

    In a hilarious act of defense - The US state department said that he was there of "his own free will".

    First of all you proffer disputed and strenuously denied events as fact.

    Then you extrapolate from that, your own version of what you think happened.

    Then you forecast what you think would happen had those events been reversed

    Then you dismiss the US denial with an attempt at scorn.

    We are grown ups here man.


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    #25
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    First of all you proffer disputed and strenuously denied events as fact.

    Then you extrapolate from that, your own version of what you think happened.

    Oh really? I suppose, you're never guilty of the same thing, right? As evident here:
    FlutterinBantam wrote:
    I kinda make up my own mind on what I know is true.

    The level of hypocrisy from you is amusing.
    FlutterinBantam wrote:
    Then you forecast what you think would happen had those events been reversed

    And, the problem with hypothesizing what would happen if the roles were reversed is wrong because?
    FlutterinBantam wrote:
    Then you dismiss the US denial with an attempt at scorn.

    And?
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    We are grown ups here man.

    I'm not sure what relevance that has to do with anything.


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    #26
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    This is gonna be a tricky one without the full facts..

    If he was captured/kidnapped/renditioned, then how had he enough freedom to make it to the Pakistani Embassy? was it a slip up? did it become too public for them to hold him somewhere forcibly?

    If he did defect, why did he leave his entire family behind knowing the reputation of the Iranian gov? why was the US offering such a vast amount of money if he had already defected?

    So.. many.. questions..

    1. He defected, BUT.. changed his mind, US offered him cash to stay (knowing the propaganda damage) he didn't accept, went back to Iran and claimed the US kidnapped/tortured him so he (and his family) won't be 'punished' over there

    2. He was captured/taken, brought to the US, the story became too public, they presented that he had defected, but his first chance he did a runner, they offered him a lot of cash to stay (because they couldn't obviously chuck in into some dark hole after it being so public)

    3. ???

    I


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    #27
    Clawdeeus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    I wouldnt doubt the CIA would kidnap and torture someone, but to then bring them to the mainland US and let them wander around, escape in Vermont, then release 3 videos? Please.

    I also find it ironic when people state how skeptical they are of US goverment statements (which is fair enough), then believe without question Iranian gov. /state media.

    If he wasnt co-operating he would have been killed or ended up in some camp in Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

    And wasnt a dissedent who fled Iran and spoke to Western media called and had his family (still in Iran) threatened? Cant remmeber his name, but reasonably sure I read that fairly recently.


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    #28
    Clawdeeus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭Clawdeeus


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    This is gonna be a tricky one without the full facts..

    If he was captured/kidnapped/renditioned, then how had he enough freedom to make it to the Pakistani Embassy? was it a slip up? did it become too public for them to hold him somewhere forcibly?

    If he did defect, why did he leave his entire family behind knowing the reputation of the Iranian gov? why was the US offering such a vast amount of money if he had already defected?

    So.. many.. questions..

    1. He defected, BUT.. changed his mind, US offered him cash to stay (knowing the propaganda damage) he didn't accept, went back to Iran and claimed the US kidnapped/tortured him so he (and his family) won't be 'punished' over there

    2. He was captured/taken, brought to the US, the story became too public, they presented that he had defected, but his first chance he did a runner, they offered him a lot of cash to stay (because they couldn't obviously chuck in into some dark hole after it being so public)

    3. ???

    I

    Also, I kind of agree, but I dont think there really would have been a problem had he dissapeared after it became public, any number of reasons could be given.


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    #29
    Jonny7
    Registered Users Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    I wouldnt doubt the CIA would kidnap and torture someone, but to then bring them to the mainland US and let them wander around, escape in Vermont, then release 3 videos? Please.

    I also find it ironic when people state how skeptical they are of US goverment statements (which is fair enough), then believe without question Iranian gov. /state media.

    If he wasnt co-operating he would have been killed or ended up in some camp in Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

    And wasnt a dissedent who fled Iran and spoke to Western media called and had his family (still in Iran) threatened? Cant remmeber his name, but reasonably sure I read that fairly recently.

    Don't think anyone here has lent any creedence to the Iranian media?

    Its more based on what the scientist has said himself


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    #30
    Bob Z
    Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭Bob Z


    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    I wouldnt doubt the CIA would kidnap and torture someone, but to then bring them to the mainland US and let them wander around, escape in Vermont, then release 3 videos? Please.

    I also find it ironic when people state how skeptical they are of US goverment statements (which is fair enough), then believe without question Iranian gov. /state media.

    If he wasnt co-operating he would have been killed or ended up in some camp in Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

    And wasnt a dissedent who fled Iran and spoke to Western media called and had his family (still in Iran) threatened? Cant remmeber his name, but reasonably sure I read that fairly recently.


    I agree with this. The CIA are too sneaky to kidnap someone themselves and take the them to the US. They would have got someone else to kidnap him and/ or taken him to an allies country


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    #31
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,656 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Its quite possible that the scientist wanted asylum in the states and promised all kinds of secrets to get it but when he couldn't deliver he was left to twist in the wind and and had to grovel back to iran.

    Possibly or it could be the CIA got all they needed out of him. They may have decided to let him go due to the pressure being put on his family back home. There could also be a deal in the works to free three US hikers who were detained in Iran on allegations of spying in return. In this secnario the Iranians can spin it as he was kidnapped and somehow managed to escape giving them a propaganda coup.
    From the Americans perspective they have the information they need out of him and they may get the release of three of their "hikers" as part of the deal.


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