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Is Sinn Fein losing their grip?

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13

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    #62
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    And why are they supposedly doing that?

    Ehhhh you do know what that means right?
    Thats a good question indeed. As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?

    In that ONE case, yes I know what "former" means.
    My ma and da kindly sent me to school!

    Funny how you still have avoided after MANY mentions though, the report on last months raid?
    Would you care to explain why its been stated that quote "The IRA, along with members of Sinn Fein, were behind what the European police agency Europol said was one of the biggest and most sophisticated counterfeiting operations ever uncovered in Europe"

    ..or do we still want to avoid that one?


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    #63
    CMACSAFF
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭CMACSAFF


    the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

    I can feel your pain. I share your pain. I'm weeping at my keyboard. Now its all wet.

    But would you not be better turning your rightous angst towards the 16 murders in the Republic linked to gangs this year?

    The PIRA is inactive a fact accepted by the PSNI and Unionists. But not you.


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    #64
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    CMACSAFF wrote: »
    ...The PIRA is inactive a fact accepted by the PSNI and Unionists. But not you ...or many policing organisations...
    You forgot the last bit but I inserted it for you.

    And the question is still open! Last months activities and those involved???
    The silence on that one so far is deafening as they say!


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    #65
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Why does anyone wish to gain more and more money? Simple question asked with a simple obvious answer..
    Obviously not, seen as you do not know it yourself.
    As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?
    You then quote a source which lends no weight to your argument. And you say SF have no credibility?

    Do you believe that they are former PIRA members, or CIRA or RIRA? And as for the SF members do you believe it is an aim of SF to carry out these things for monetary gain? Or are these people operating with a mandate from the SF leadership? Or are they doing it off of their own bat if they actually are doing these things?


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    #66
    Mylesie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    Biggins wrote: »
    I believe (as do the policing agencies across Europe - and have reported so) that its members are still doing the same activities in finance gain and have diversified into other areas as well - as the saying goes "they have not gone away" - they have just diversified and for anyone to think different, is to deny the many crimes reported every so often in our news, is to deny the police reports, is to deny the pain filled words/testaments of the families of loved ones that have and in some cases, are still dying.

    Even a report late last year stated:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html

    A simple question to this like many other reports - How many years did it take to get the truth about Bloody Sunday, and at what cost - yet you still believe everything you read?

    btw: what's your take on the Dublin and Moneghan bombings - and more to the point what are you doing about it???


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    #67
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Obviously not, seen as you do not know it yourself.
    Jesus man, does everything have to be ABC'ed or spelt out for you?
    Are you seriously trying to tell us on the forum you can't see that?
    Thats just sadly laughable.

    For the MONEY. Duh!!! :rolleyes:

    O' and I'm sure the parents of Paul Quinn would appreciate kind tears!


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    #68
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    Jesus man, does everything have to be ABC'ed or spelt out for you?
    Are you seriously trying to tell us on the forum you can't see that?
    Thats just sadly laughable.

    For the MONEY. Duh!!! :rolleyes:

    O' and I'm sure the parents of Paul Quinn would appreciate kind tears!
    As we don't sit in on their meetings we can't say can we?
    So now you do know?
    Since when have any part of the IRA been motivated by money?


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    #69
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Mylesie wrote: »
    A simple question to this like many other reports - How many years did it take to get the truth about Bloody Sunday, and at what cost - yet you still believe everything you read?
    Well apparently the evidence was so strong by those actually arrested and found at the site, they had NO hesitation is saying who was responsible within days!

    Surprise? Aaaa... no!


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    #70
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So now you do know?
    Since when have any part of the IRA been motivated by money?

    Since day one when they needed funding for their activities. Thats on historic record.
    Now that some of their more militarist nationalism related activities have ceased they have by many, many, many accounts and reports found better placement for such revenues still coming in by same and more diversified activities.

    Into their bank accounts!


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    #71
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Biggins wrote: »
    Even a report late last year stated:

    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1934610.html

    404 - Page not found


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    #72
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Biggins wrote: »
    Since day one when they needed funding for their activities. Thats on historic record.
    Now that some of their more militarist nationalism related activities have ceased they have by many, many, many accounts and reports found better placement for such revenues still coming in by same and more diversified activities.

    Into their bank accounts!

    everyone to their own. if people want to believe the rubbish that the ira still exist, sf are all crims and the republican movement does it for the cash, then I say work away. People who believe that are fooling themselves and falling for the newspaper selling, gossip rousing papers but thats totally besides the point.


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    #73
    CMACSAFF
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭CMACSAFF


    From the Independent Monitoring Commission // Government of the United Kingdom // Government of Ireland

    Available here http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/showRecord.php?RecordId=33196

    You'll note this is a joint British and Irish Governmental body. You'll also note its not the Irish Independant.


    Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA)
    2.21 In our Twenty-Second Report we reiterated that PIRA had not engaged in terrorist
    or other illegal activity; that where individuals had engaged in violence or other
    crime it had been without sanction or support and for personal financial gain; and
    that such information as had been gathered had been for the purpose of
    maintaining the coherence of the republican movement. We also noted that the
    leadership had continued to adhere to its strategy, taking a clear and public stance
    against terrorist activity and the involvement of members in crime and actively
    discouraging members from engaging in public disorder during the parades
    season.
    2.22 Our assessment is unchanged. We remain of the view we expressed six months
    ago and previously: that PIRA has maintained its political course in the period
    under review and that it will continue to do so.


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    #74
    CMACSAFF
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭CMACSAFF


    Can I just add that I have no love for the Republican movement but there are people out there who I suspect are really sorry the PIRA are no longer active.


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    #75
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    maccored wrote: »
    404 - Page not found
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-aiding-rogue-republicans-1934610.html

    Clearly some here will have to agree to disagree with others views here.

    Sinn Fein has some very, very good hearted members. Some of whom are related to me and firmly believe in what they as an political organisation are working towards.
    (which right or wrong, angers me too because it by association, tarnishes their good genuine efforts)

    It would be absolutely and TOTALLY wrong to condemn those people who are in it for good and good alone.
    My contention (and others) is that they (SF leadership) must in order to make more substantial gains at the ballot box, be more honest and more forth coming with the truth, with not just distancing themselves from those amid them in still criminal activity but creating an absolute break away from them instead.

    No connection whatsoever.


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    #76
    Notorious97
    Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    CMACSAFF wrote: »
    Can I just add that I have no love for the Republican movement but there are people out there who I suspect are really sorry the PIRA are no longer active.


    Active or not they will continue to moan about them anyway, so im sure he will ignore your post including the report and focus on that the newspapers have to say.


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    #77
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    CMACSAFF wrote: »
    From the Independent Monitoring Commission // Government of the United Kingdom // Government of Ireland

    Available here http://www.humansecuritygateway.com/showRecord.php?RecordId=33196

    You'll note this is a joint British and Irish Governmental body. You'll also note its not the Irish Independant.
    I agree, I read that too in the Irish Times
    (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0527/1224271229918.html)
    Now if SF can rein in those that its still being associated with, there is gains to be made. :)


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    #78
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Just a quick side note.
    Notorious97 wrote: »
    Active or not they will continue to moan about them anyway, so im sure he will ignore your post including the report and focus on that the newspapers have to say.
    I'd never ignore a post.
    If someone offers related material, etc, even if it is not in my favour of discussion, it would be reprehensible and stupid of me to ignore it.
    If I'm wrong about something (and not necessarily just in the present topic maybe) I would gladly accept items to the contrary of my argument contention. :)

    p.s. Good debate by the way. :D


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    #79
    Notorious97
    Registered Users Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    Biggins wrote: »
    Just a quick side note.


    I'd never ignore a post.
    If someone offers related material, etc, even if it is not in my favour of discussion, it would be reprehensible and stupid of me to ignore it.
    If I'm wrong about something (and not necessarily just in the present topic maybe) I would gladly accept items to the contrary of my argument contention. :)

    p.s. Good debate by the way. :D

    And i cannot argue with that!


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    #80
    Mylesie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Mylesie


    Notorious97 wrote: »
    And i cannot argue with that!
    I agree hope to do similar again soon. tks


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    #81
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    So Biggins, do you dispute what that report says? Just to be 100% clear.
    that PIRA had not engaged in terrorist
    or other illegal activity; that where individuals had engaged in violence or other
    crime it had been without sanction or support


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    #82
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So Biggins, do you dispute what that report says? Just to be 100% clear.
    I DO agree what WAS the official PIRA has peaceful intentions.
    My contention and many others it seems is that a lot of its members is still involved with activities that are still deemed illegal and are still associated with SF.

    Its this situation that needs to change for real gains to be made.
    So far Sf heads have been floundering in political limbo.
    They have to decide what way to tackle things sooner or later.
    To not do so will lead to inner-party frustrations increasing as the younger members who genuinely want to see change that is gainful to them at the ballot box, will seek alternative routes (peaceful ones such as splitting away into their one political org, etc) and having a further detrimental effect on the established SF org as it is.


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    #83
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Biggins wrote: »
    I DO agree what WAS the official PIRA has peaceful intentions.
    My contention and many others it seems is that a lot of its members is still involved with activities that are still deemed illegal and are still associated with SF.

    Its this situation that needs to change for real gains to be made.
    So far Sf heads have been floundering in political limbo.
    They have to decide what way to tackle things sooner or later.
    To not do so will lead to inner-party frustrations increasing as the younger members who genuinely want to see change that is gainful to them at the ballot box, will seek alternative routes (peaceful ones such as splitting away into their one political org, etc) and having a further detrimental effect on the established SF org as it is.
    I still don't quite follow , humor me.

    So you believe that members of SF and the PIRA are engaged in criminal activity off of their own bat and not in any "official" capacity? And that their activities cast a bad light on SF?

    And not former members of the organisation? Both?

    I would argue that SF have made major gains in the last number of the years. If anything it is the older die hards who are splitting, not younger members.


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    #84
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I still don't quite follow , humor me.

    So you believe that members of SF and the PIRA are engaged in criminal activity off of their own bat and not in any "official" capacity? And that their activities cast a bad light on SF?

    And not former members of the organisation? Both?

    I would argue that SF have made major gains in the last number of the years. If anything it is the older die-hards who are splitting, not younger members.
    It could be my fault for providing a lack of clarity but at present it seems there is still an element of "characters" (for want of a better word) that are up to no good.
    These people are still associating within the ranks of SF while outside (on the streets) of the organisation, have been linked to illegal activities.
    This has been the contention of many a police report. Not just my own words.

    I don't believe SF off its own bat is out to instigate criminal activity or its heads now wish to be associated with it.
    I do believe though that in order to walk a fine line (so far) many heads within the org have held they mouths silent as to the activities of some of their more rogue members.
    I do (myself) think that these activities are "rogue" activities that so far has been tolerated to a degree by inner heads for various clear reasons (to maybe placate more hotter heads with? Etc...).
    Its this element of activity that is being associated with them that needs to be eradicated for further gain to be made.
    Their actions do indeed cast bad light on the rest. Again, no argument there.

    I use the "splitting" possibility as just a future possible occurrence. There are other ways things can go.
    I do know this. I have spoken to family and friends who are involved at local lower levels in SF and quite honestly they are tired of the tainting of possible associated crime being tarnished on them all.
    They are genuine people - some of them are young and indeed hungry and ambitious. They have admitted to me that they won't stay in an org that seems at least this side of the border, not to be making major substantial gains from East to West.
    They are restless, being held back un-intentionally and I can understand that frustration.


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    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....


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    #86
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Nodin wrote: »
    Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....
    *sigh*


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    #87
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »
    Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....

    considering what the shinners have done to this country and to northern ireland they are eminently worth bashing.


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    #88
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    considering what the shinners have done to this country and to northern ireland they are eminently worth bashing.
    What an ignorant post that is.


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    #89
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Is Sinn Féin responsible for every troubled youth that descends into violence? No.

    I'm not sure what's to discuss. Sinn Féin has played a positive role in bringing peace to Ireland - but some will never accept a peaceful solution to the national question.


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    #90
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Biggins wrote: »
    *sigh*

    You've derailed a thread.

    You've also being saying that its the IRA/SF, changed to 'those known to them', changed to their 'associates', changed to 'former members' in a sort of stream of conciousness styled river of muck to throw.

    If theres any sighs due, its not from your end.


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    #91
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Nodin wrote: »
    Another day, another thread devolved into groundless hysterical shinner bashing.....


    Some might say shining a light on what is 'really ' happening rather than accepting the official line from the spin doctors.

    what every dog in the street knows like;)


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