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Oireachtas Reform (upcoming Liberal Society Debate)

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    hadit2here wrote: »

    Somehow I am not surprised .... at some stage the Irish will just vote for extreme candidates (out of frustration)

    I predict Sinn Féin will do very well in the next election. Perhaps up to as many as 20 seats. Labour with around 40-50. Fine Gael will implode soon enough, I'm pretty confident of that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    again who's argueing against the motion, i dunno having a chair who is a walter mitty and in favor of internment,kidnap,torture and belligerent wars doesn't give a good impression of the liberal party


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    I'd agree with everything The Minister said in his OP.

    I think a more federated system would be good. It would allow individual countries/cantons to make decisions for themselves. I would devolve powers of income and sales taxation to these bodies.

    Perhaps the Senate could then be turned into a "council of cantons", elected similarly to the US Senate. The principal responsibility would be the regulation of competencies of the cantons. There would be a strict constitutional framework for assigning powers ("competencies") to the federal and local governments. If, for example, the federal government wanted to give powers to the cantons it would require a majority in the Senate, whereas if they wanted to take powers from the cantons it would require a double majority in the Senate. The Senate would thus be primarily a body to uphold the autonomy of individual cantons.


    I don't know if that would actually work, or if it makes any sense. I'm no constitutional lawyer! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Phil Hogan of Fine Gael will now be joining us on the night.:)

    A great night just got better - every major party is now represented.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭bryanw


    Phil Hogan of Fine Gael will now be joining us on the night.:)

    A great night just got better - every major party is now represented.
    w00t!

    No seriously, I'd be interested to see Fine Gael sell the "New Politics" document. And also... is Sinn Fein attending? Surely they are a more major party than the Greens?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    bryanw wrote: »
    w00t!

    No seriously, I'd be interested to see Fine Gael sell the "New Politics" document. And also... is Sinn Fein attending? Surely they are a more major party than the Greens?

    They aren't in government :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭bryanw


    They aren't in government :p
    Yes they are. In line with the slow release strategy of the party across the whole island... :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Oh, I should have added that if you want to reserve seats then e-mail debate@liberals.ie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Butch Cassidy


    Can one not just show up?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Can one not just show up?

    Oh you can - some people just like to reserve a seat to make sure they have a place - show up on time and you will be grand.

    Normally people who might really need a seat, like the elderly, like to reserve a place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Enda Kenny, Fine Gael party leader, will be replacing Phil Hogan at tonight's debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Enda Kenny, Fine Gael party leader, will be replacing Phil Hogan at tonight's debate.


    That's good news, it is a pity as I can not make it tonight now, bt look forward to the video when uploaded. Please give us a link as soon as it is uploaded.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Denerick wrote: »
    There is no reason to do this. Personally I would like to see a non partisan upper house with greater powers of oversight, to act as a check on the lower house. I don't think unicameral parliaments are good ideas.
    But the whole point of bicameralism is to allow different interests in the country have their say, e.g.

    US: states (2 senators each) vs. all citizens (congress members are awarded by population) - Germany, India etc are similar

    UK: commoners vs nobility

    Ireland's upper house was supposed to give a voice to different economic sectors who, as was the Catholic view, would cooperate, contra the Marxist idea of class struggles. The Seanad has always failed in this as all parties stuff it with apparatchiks. There's no point in an upper house unless it represents non-geographical constituencies (e.g. age cohorts, employment areas, gender, or whatever.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Well, how did the debate go?

    Wasn't able to go as I'm not in Dublin right now. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    bijapos wrote: »
    Pensions only payable at 68. No multiple pensions.

    I don't believe that a pension at 68 would be fair. Everyone should be entitled to relax at 65 and enjoy their last few years.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't believe that a pension at 68 would be fair. Everyone should be entitled to relax at 65 and enjoy their last few years.
    Even with increasing life expectancy, and an aging population?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    yeah who argued against reform?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Even with increasing life expectancy, and an aging population?

    Everyone should be able to retire at 65. Many people don't even make it to 65. People should not have to work until their deathbed. There's more to life than that.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Everyone should be able to retire at 65. Many people don't even make it to 65. People should not have to work until their deathbed. There's more to life than that.
    It's a lovely aspiration, but if we get to the point where average life expectancy is pushing 100 and there are more retired people than there are workers paying the taxes required the pay the pensions, is it realistic?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's a lovely aspiration, but if we get to the point where average life expectancy is pushing 100 and there are more retired people than there are workers paying the taxes required the pay the pensions, is it realistic?

    The average life expectancy isn't pushing 100 though. Even if it was - it doesn't mean that people are in the health to work after 65. I don't believe in using old people as workhorses until they are of no use to us.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The average life expectancy isn't pushing 100 though. Even if it was - it doesn't mean that people are in the health to work after 65. I don't believe in using old people as workhorses until they are of no use to us.
    Neither do I. Wouldn't it be great to let people retire at 50, so they could live out their remaining 30-odd years at leisure?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Any feedback on this yet? Is the video on Youtube yet?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Nice to see the debate being reported in today's Irish Times.
    ...

    President of the Liberal Society Niall Neligan called for an overhaul of the separation of powers doctrine under the Constitution, the abolition of the Seanad and the extension of the electoral franchise to EU citizens resident and working in Ireland so that they could vote in general elections.

    ...

    Agree 100%.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    ^^^^^
    Also in the Independant.
    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    Any feedback on this yet? Is the video on Youtube yet?

    The videos will take a few days - we had several cameras so we will be editing the footage to the best effect (nothing will be censored though)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    ^^^^^
    Also in the Independant.



    The videos will take a few days - we had several cameras so we will be editing the footage to the best effect (nothing will be censored though)

    Cheers thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    But he added: “It was not until I became a minister managing a huge volume of major law reform and other day-to-day legislative business that I began to doubt the correctness and wisdom of abolishing Seanad Éireann and bringing about a unicameral parliament for Ireland.”

    well i have to agree with him on that the more eyes on legislation the better


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    well i have to agree with him on that the more eyes on legislation the better

    We just need to start with all our TDs...

    Let's face it, we can do without the Seanad as long as there is proper oversight on behalf of the Dáil in more independent committees.

    Let's not forget we also have the President and Courts to block any "dodgy" legislation, and the last time the Seanad rejected a bill was a few decades ago (1950s or 1960s I think?).

    The Dáil itself needs to become more than just a rubber stamp, and one method of doing this would be, as The_Minister suggested, providing for a proper separation of powers and system of checks and balances.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Oh, by the way, McDowell turned up with a box filled with copies of a brilliant paper on constitutional reform that he wrote (Well, I think it was brilliant).

    We'll be sticking that up soon as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Butch Cassidy


    Sulmac wrote: »
    We just need to start with all our TDs...

    Let's face it, we can do without the Seanad as long as there is proper oversight on behalf of the Dáil in more independent committees.

    Let's not forget we also have the President and Courts to block any "dodgy" legislation, and the last time the Seanad rejected a bill was a few decades ago (1950s or 1960s I think?).

    The Dáil itself needs to become more than just a rubber stamp, and one method of doing this would be, as The_Minister suggested, providing for a proper separation of powers and system of checks and balances.
    How many times has the president, Seanad and/or courts blocked legislation and when was the last time do you know?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    How many times has the president, Seanad and/or courts blocked legislation and when was the last time do you know?

    Seanad: only once and, as I said, sometime in the 1950s or 1960s (I think).

    President: not uncommon, last time was in 2004 with the Health (Amendment) Bill 2004, which was found unconstitutional.

    Courts: regularly declare legislation to be unconstitutional, be it that which isn't yet signed into law (as above), or old legislation (such as the Vagrancy Act from the 1800s which outlawed begging, in 2007).

    The President and Courts have done far more to block such legislation than the Seanad has, although I do acknowledge that it's possible important amendments have been made in the Seanad that have rectified what would have been an unconstitutional bill.

    That said, they have done nothing which couldn't (or shouldn't) have been done in the Dáil, including in committee.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Butch Cassidy


    Isn't it the case that because the govt. party ends up with a majority in the Seanad as well together with the whip system, then the Seanad is of course useless at present state?

    I'd be interested in hearing what kinda reforms McDowell suggested. Doing away with the Taoiseach's nominations should surely be one of them! A certain Eoghan Harris deal springs to mind. :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Any progress on putting the video or paper on constitutional reform online?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Bump - whatever about the video, I'd like to see the paper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Bump - whatever about the video, I'd like to see the paper.

    Slight delay in sticking up both.

    If you PM your e-mail OB, I have an electronic copy of the paper that I can send you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This has its own thread in the EU forum, but is probably relevant here. The changes are technical, and as the report itself says, hardly the stuff of heated public debate, but depending on what measures (if any) are adopted, it could represent a worthwhile change in the relationship between the Oireachtas and the Government. The job of the Oireachtas, after all, is to hold the Government to account, but holding the Government to account in respect of its actions and decisions in the EU has been difficult, and has contributed to a sense of disconnect (the 'democratic deficit') between the EU and the citizens.

    The Report of the Sub-Committee on Review of the Role of the Oireachtas in European Affairs is out today - obtainable here.

    From the introduction:
    The Lisbon Treaty has wide-ranging effects on the relationship between institutions of the European Union and the national institutions of individual member states. This Sub-Committee was entrusted with the task of examining the crucially important relationship between the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European institutions.

    The entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty provided the impetus for change, but this review goes further than merely recommending those changes mandated by the Treaty. The terms of reference of the Sub-Committee recognised that the task of re-balancing of the role of the Oireachtas presented an opportunity, as well as presenting a challenge for the Houses of the Oireachtas. This opportunity was to re-evaluate how European issues are examined by the National Parliament, and how the Parliament works with the Executive to maximise democratic accountability at both national and European levels. Neither the internal workings of the Houses of the Oireachtas nor their relationship with the institutions of the European Union get much media attention. They are not the stuff of heated popular debate. Yet the low profile of the institutional issues belies their enormous importance for democracy at both national and European level.

    The Oireachtas can lead the way in bridging a disconnect that has often been felt between the people and the European Union. An enhanced role for the Oireachtas in European Affairs can only enhance democratic participation and democratic accountability. Measures and policies shaped in Brussels play an increasing role in our daily affairs, and for that reason this Report recommends that the Houses of the Oireachtas play an increased role in shaping, scrutinising, overseeing and implementing those measures. Should the committee’s recommendations be substantially implemented, I am confident that a more engaged and transparent relationship between the Oireachtas and the EU will inevitably follow.

    The Report makes a number of recommendations, listed below. JCEA is the Joint Committee on European Affairs, JCES is the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny.
    1. current interim arrangements to be made permanent with annual review
    2. weekly report on EU documents to be published
    3. documents to be laid electronically
    4. division of legislative proposals to be scrutinised into minor and major impact for Ireland
    5. six-monthly report by each Dept on EU developments, measures proposed and progressed
    6. Commission Annual Policy Strategy to be debated in JCEA and both Houses
    7. Commission Annual Legislative Work Programme to be debated in JCES and report laid before the Houses
    8. Ministers should be obliged to attend relevant sectoral Committee in advance of Council meetings
    9. that statements and Q&A take place in the Dáil prior to Council meetings
    10. that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, bring forward proposals on how EU budget scrutiny will happen
    11. a scrutiny reserve is recommended - that a Minister not agree to EU legislation before the Committee has finished its scrutiny. Allowance is made for an 'urgency clause' allowing a Minister to over-ride the reserve if required, but to have to justify doing so
    12. that a Memorandum of Understanding be agreed between the Oireachtas and the Government on the operation of such a system
    13. JCEA and JCES to be amalgamated
    14. that the Houses of the Oireachtas should host an interparliamentary meeting on an annual or bi-annual basis to discuss a topical EU policy area or legislative proposal
    15. that the JCEA and JCES have regular meetings with the Irish MEPs to discuss issues of mutual concern on the EU’s agenda
    16. that the JCEA and JCES, as well as appropriate sectoral committees, consider holding consultations with the Rapporteur of the European Parliament Committee dealing with the policy or legislative proposal under scrutiny
    17. that the powers of referral of EU documents by the JCEA and JCES and the powers of consideration by the sectoral committees are rationalised and strengthened
    18. that a Rapporteur system be introduced for the consideration of important EU policy and legislative proposals
    19. that reports of the JCEA and JCES which are recommended for debate are taken for debate within a certain period of time
    20. that selected sectoral committees would be obliged to report to the Seanad periodically in respect of its EU related work
    21. that the week of 9 May, Europe Day, each year should be set aside by the Dáil as a week for debates and events on EU related topics
    22. that Regulatory Impact Assessments prepared by Depts for Directives should be giev to the JCEA and JCES
    23. that all SIs should be circulated to all Oireachtas members six weeks before they are signed by the relevant Minister
    24. that the Seanad play an important role in the area of monitoring the transposition of EU Directives
    25. that the JCEA should be briefed on infringement actions taken or pending against Ireland for the non-transposition or improper transposition of EU Directives
    26. that the JCEA should undertake a study of selected EU Directives transposed in Ireland which have caused the greatest concern in terms of regulation
    27. that an EU information kiosk is established in the lobby entrance of the visitors’ gallery of Leinster House
    28. that the Oireachtas should form a more formal link with the Representatives Offices of the Commission and the European Parliament in Ireland in order to maximise their joint remit to communicate Europe

    There's a lot in that, and some of it will seem abstruse or a little 'theoretical' to some, but implementation of the recommendations would strengthen the Oireachtas' role in controlling and making accountable the actions of the Government in the EU - and the implementation of almost any of the recommendations seems positive to me. Many of the measures explicitly flow from Lisbon, and the greater scrutiny powers accorded to national parliaments in it.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    We've uploaded the video to our Youtube Channel, not all the videos have appeared yet (they need approval), but the first few are there already :).

    Videos are here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Boyle and McDowell are now approved and up.

    Only Q&A left (Do watch the Q&A, there were some interesting questions and even more interesting answers).


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