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School Chaplains' funding protected

  • 23-03-2012 8:59am
    #1
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭


    Seems that funding for school chaplains is legally protected by the deeds of trust of schools - unlike the funding of more essential services such as Guidance Councilors and Special Needs teachers. So the Government couldn't touch the 9 million a year it costs to pay members of religious orders to hang around schools peddling their personal beliefs.

    Report here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0323/chaplains.html

    I do have to say, at least Minister Quinn is making an attempt to right some of the obvious wrongs in relation to school patronage. But things like this show the challenges he faces.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Utter madness.
    When you consider what it means for a special needs child to loose their teacher, how that reflects on the quality of the rest of their lives.
    Having a school chaplain is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.


  • #3
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Reminds me of the (purposely conducted?) uproar when it emerged that the state spends nearly half €500,000 per year protecting endangered species. "Half a million, on frogs?!!??!" they cried out. The newspapers branded it a waste of taxpayers' money. the very same newspapers that see no problem with the same state spending €3million on Communion dresses and no €9 million on Chaplains.
    Perspective needed.


  • #4
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Dundalk Institute of Technology student can't avoid Catholic chaplin https://nadiawilliams.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/why-things-stay-the-same/ Priest given students emails she can't unsubcribe, although she's tried several times, College Admin say chaplain are compulsory for IT's. can anyone find that in law, did Institutes of Technology come from 'Vocational Education' law? is it in there?

    https://www.dkit.ie/about/history https://www.dkit.ie/new-students/welcome-podcasts/welcome-dundalk-institute-technology/history-dundalk-institute-technology short bit of history on RTCs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutes_of_technology_in_Ireland


  • #5
    Red Belly
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Red Belly


    Designated community colleges (ie ETB schools but with a religious affiliation- often the legacy of an amalgamation with a religious school) get an additional teacher allocation for Chaplain. Often the chaplain is a qualified teacher as well so they can use that to offer additional subject teaching as well as chaplaincy/counselling. Non-designated community colleges (basically the same type of school but WITHOUT the religious affiliation) do not get the allocation. Fairness would suggest to me that the non-designated colleges should get the same allocation. They could use it at their discretion- extra subjects- extra counsellor- Humanist chaplain., whatever.


  • #6
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    School chaplains
    In the case of school chaplains paid by the State, these posts are regarded as teaching
    posts and, therefore, those appointed to them should be registered teachers.
    However, it is also recognised that the most significant aspect to the role and time of
    a chaplain is not teaching but the provision of pastoral care in recognised schools.
    Having regard to that objective, any school chaplain currently in employment who
    cannot gain registration with the Teaching Councilwill be permitted to continue in
    his or her primary role in pastoral care but willbe prohibited from teaching. New
    appointees to chaplain positions must be registered teachers.
    https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf


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  • #7
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,462 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Great to see our taxpayer euros at work :rolleyes:

    Scrap the cap!



  • #8
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    phutyle wrote: »
    Seems that funding for school chaplains is legally protected by the deeds of trust of schools - unlike the funding of more essential services such as Guidance Councilors and Special Needs teachers. So the Government couldn't touch the 9 million a year it costs to pay members of religious orders to hang around schools peddling their personal beliefs.

    They could if they wanted to. The governments over the years have been censured often enough over the religious brainwashing nature of Irish state education, which should not be allowed in any country with a pretense to democracy.

    All they have to do is bring in a law secularising the educational system, and defunding all religious schools, up to and including removing state salaries from teachers, and billing the religious orders for the costs of buying the land and erecting and maintaining the school buildings. You'll quickly find that the churches will hand back control to the state in toto if that happened, and all it would take would be for one taoiseach to finally decide to act in the national interest.


  • #9
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    It seems that RTCs, VEC, ETB, have a traditional historical association with the RCC that goes back to a time when education and religion were inseparable. Ireland was "a catholic country" in most peoples minds, and so any religious aspect to these colleges naturally defaulted to RCC, even though they were set up under the aegis of (secular) central and local government.

    Its just another example of the lack of separation between church and state, and it won't change until a significant portion of the population objects to it.


  • #10
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Hmm this would be the same secular government that seems to think that prayers in the national legislature are important and we've local governments installing "standard size crusifixes" in the council chamber in Kerry for example...


  • #11
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    good follow up by atheist.ie/ john hamill DKIT are paying 30k a year for catholic chaplin http://atheist.ie/2015/05/religious-equality-third-level-education/ on what basis who knows just because.


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  • #12
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Atheist Ireland hit out at Dundalk IT for using €30,000 of public funds for Catholic chaplain http://talkofthetown.ie/2015/05/27/atheist-ireland-hit-out-at-dundalk-it-for-using-e30000-of-public-funds-for-catholic-chaplain/
    They insist that no decision was ever recorded by the college’s board to make these annual payments and that no tender was issued or process followed to allow other religious or secular bodies to offer pastoral services to students.
    have to careful how to tackle this, but again wheres the process?


  • #13
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    expectationlost wrote: »
    [...] wheres the process?
    I'd love to see this one go out to tender - presumably the college can't demand that only catholics (for example) are acceptable, meaning that they might be in a position to have to accept the provision of catholic "services" from non-catholics.

    Nice one.


  • #14
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    That is quite funny (but sad) to see the president of DIT trying to find out who the new chaplain will be, after apparently hearing on the grapevine that the previous incumbent is to be replaced. Its as if a new papal nuncio is being appointed to the college, except that they are the ones paying for his salary.

    The €1200 stipend being paid to a retired Presbyterian to be on standby is very obviously a political device the college has created just to head off any criticism that they are "endowing" the RCC by allowing same to appoint the college chaplain.
    If the job of this guy is to provide counselling for students, and the job is publicly funded, it should be open to all qualified counsellors, and all students should be welcome to avail of the service.

    If his job is to promote catholicism within the student body, why is he being allowed onto the premises, let alone being paid to do it?


  • #15
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Article published in Dundalk Democrat on DkIT Chaplaincy funding http://atheist.ie/wordpress/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?action=spidercalendarbig&theme_id=13&calendar_id=1&ev_ids=8,55&eventID=8&date=2015-06-9&many_sp_calendar=1&cur_page_url=http://atheist.ie/what-we-do/&widget=0&TB_iframe=1&tbWidth=600&tbHeight=500 which noted the lack of a tender for chaplain at Dundalk IT

    good work being done by John Hammill of Atheist Ireland chasing this

    Dáil told Catholic Church “Sole Supplier” of Chaplains
    http://atheist.ie/2015/07/sole-supplier-chaplains/

    so say they don't have to tender but there nothing in the the job description (included in link) that explains that why there can only one supplier.

    Joan Collins raised it during the employment equality bill https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-06-17a.353&s=chaplain#g370 minister doesnt' seem to respond

    The position regarding School Chaplain posts which are paid by the State is set out in Circular 0025/2013
    https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf
    all chaplains have to registered teachers unless they are already in place


    missing links
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-07-01a.647&s=chaplain#g648.q
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-06-30a.17&s=chaplain#g18.q


  • #16
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    It really is quite extraordinary. I'd imagine it is only the tip of the iceberg in relation to unchecked public funds being diverted to religious organisations.
    And the public cannot get a cent for abuse case recompense.


  • #17
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    anybody find out when O'Fiaich Institute of Further Education was founded https://www.facebook.com/ofiaichinstitute classed as interdominational http://education.ie/en/find-a-school/School-Detail/?roll=71770D its logo looks similar to the bishop of Armagh logo http://atheist.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Letters.jpg and named after a former Cardinal

    beginning of college started by man behind chapel street school http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/the-man-who-turned-first-key-in-regional-college-is-retiring-from-lecturing-26914192.html

    http://www.ofiaichcollege.ie/overview.html oh 1906
    O’Fiaich College began life in Chapel Street in 1906 as Dundalk Municipal Technical School. In 1970 it moved to a new building in the VEC campus on the Dublin Road. A large extension to the facility was added in 1990.

    Cardinal Tomás O’Fiaich, Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of Ireland, died shortly before he was to officially open the new building. In his honour, the entire facility became known as ‘O’Fiaich College’.

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/entertainment/the-men-with-the-vision-to-see-technical-evolution-26906421.html

    look asked about students at Tech in 1969 and lists leaving cert students http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail1969121800069?opendocument&highlight=Regional%20Technical%20College%2C%20Dundalk

    The new name Ó Fiaich College was adopted in 1990 https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Inspection-Reports-Publications/Whole-School-Evaluation-Reports-List/report7_71770D.pdf

    just wondering would there be something in the ITs Deed of Trust/founding document like in VECs https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-06-09.2575.0&s=vec+AND+chaplains#g2577.0.r an agreement in deeds of trust is reason given for why community colleges have chaplains
    Deed of Trust for Community Schools and the Model Agreement for Community Colleges


    find these

    Review of the Deed of Trust for Community Schools
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mcsQtFPmmM4J:www.accs.ie/content/uploads/1/Teresa_McNeill-Review_of_the_Deed_of_Trust_for_Community12_10_11.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie
    Association of Trustees of Catholic Schools Annual Report 2013
    http://atcs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ATCS-Annual-Report-2013.pdf
    The issue of a new Deed of Trust for Community Schools has arisen. This will happen in the context of the new Educate Together Community School. In general terms, it seems sensible that all Community Schools would have a written Deed of Trust. It is true that many such schools are operating on a ‘custom and practice’ model without such a written document. However and particularly in the context of the threat to ex-quota chaplains in such schools and the advice of the Attorney
    General that the Deed of Trust safeguarded them, it would be wise to have such a written Deed
    I have raised the duties and responsibilities of the Trustees in such scho
    ols in relation to the situation where the Principal is ignoring the provision for chaplaincy. That issue is ongoing but I look forward to receiving the continued wisdom and support of
    our colleagues in the ETBI and ACCS in this regard!
    A Handbook for Vocational Education Committees and Boards of Management of Schools and Community Colleges
    http://www.ivea.ie/pdf/bom/bom_handbook.pdf
    (5) The VEC will appoint a Chaplain to a Model Agreement College in accordance with the
    Model Agreement
    page 23
    18. Chaplain
    In accordance with the existing Model Agreement arrangement the VEC will appoint a chaplain,
    nominated by the relevant competent religious authority, who shall be employed in an ex quota
    capacity in the college. The chaplain shall be a full-time member of staff, must fulfil the
    requirements of the VEC and of the nominating authority and must abide by the regulations of the
    Minister for Education and Science
    page 76


    For Designated Communtiy colleges? http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2014/10/designated-community-colleges-come-under-the-full-patronage-of-the-etb-vec-and-have-a-specific-religious-ethos/

    Deeds of Trust for Community Schools and Community Colleges
    Model Lease for a Community School
    http://www.asti.ie/operation-of-schools/management-of-schools/deeds-of-trust-for-community-schools-and-community-colleges/
    10. Organisation and Curriculum
    (x) The Board of Management will appoint a Chaplain nominated by the competent Religious Authority who shall be employed outside the normal quota of the school. He shall be a full-time member of the staff and shall be paid a salary equivalent to that of a teacher in the school.
    Staff Council
    (x) The Committee will appoint a Chaplain nominated by the competent Religious Authority who shall be employed outside the normal quota of the school. He shall be a full-time member of the staff and shall be paid a salary equivalent to that of a teacher in the school.


  • #18
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Dundalk IT making efforts to attract students from the North https://soundcloud.com/morning-ireland/dundalk-it-making-efforts-to-attract-students-from-the-north

    talking about all the international students they have


  • #19
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,462 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What is it with RTE putting people with horrible voices completely unsuited for broadcasting on the radio, it's like she's presenting 'radio for the stupid' or something :mad:

    are Dundalk IT going to hire a protestant chaplain in a dodgy fashion to even things up?

    Scrap the cap!



  • #20
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Ungrateful Nordies, not even applying to Dundalk IT.
    After the college paying €1200 to a retired Presbyterian clergyman to stay at home on standby :mad:


  • #21
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Chaplaincy job also not advertised at Sligo IT see https://twitter.com/CWhyte___/status/638757110248009728

    and I presume similar at Letterkenny http://www.highlandradio.com/2015/09/01/atheist-ireland-highly-concerned-over-appointment-of-catholic-chaplain-at-l-y-i-t/ although i don't think anyone specifically says so

    all these secular ITs making deals only with the churches.



    http://itsligo.ie/student-hub/student-support-services-2/chaplaincy/
    https://www.lyit.ie/studentlife/studentservices/chaplaincy/

    theres 13 ITs https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v-pNc-qhFD_j5H4VTPtSKbmNz6rIm3CxbDXhB3Y3YpE/edit?usp=sharing

    most only have 1 paid chaplain staff (or 1 for each Campus), almost all catholic priests


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  • #22
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    expectationlost wrote: »
    Chaplaincy job also not advertised at Sligo IT see and I presume similar at Letterkenny although i don't think anyone specifically says so all these secular ITs making deals only with the churches.
    theres 13 ITs most only have 1 paid chaplain staff (or 1 for each Campus), almost catholic priests
    It must be a secular conspiracy :)


  • #23
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Absolam wrote: »
    It must be a secular conspiracy :)
    or all the religious bias of the presidents of the ITs makes them think this is a catholic country


  • #24
    henryporter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    expectationlost wrote: »
    Dundalk IT making efforts to attract students from the North https://soundcloud.com/morning-ireland/dundalk-it-making-efforts-to-attract-students-from-the-north

    talking about all the international students they have

    Even more reason they should have a non-denominational/secular chaplain in place - not a lot of those international students would be card carrying Catholics


  • #25
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    expectationlost wrote: »
    or all the religious bias of the presidents of the ITs makes them think this is a catholic country
    Is there any evidence that all of the presidents of the ITs have a religious bias, or that they think this is a catholic country?
    Other than appointing clergy to religious positions of course.


  • #26
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Absolam wrote: »
    Other than appointing clergy to religious positions of course.
    Its the RCC hierarchy who make the appointments not the ITs.
    Check out the scan of the letter from the President of DIT where be pathetically asks Cardinal Brady for some info on who the new chaplain is going to be. And Brady's reply where he basically tells him to fcuk off and mind his own business.
    What happened to "He who pays the piper calls the tune"?


  • #27
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    Its the RCC hierarchy who make the appointments not the ITs.
    Check out the scan of the letter from the President of DIT where be pathetically asks Cardinal Brady for some info on who the new chaplain is going to be. And Brady's reply where he basically tells him to fcuk off and mind his own business.
    So... we can discount chaplaincy positions as evidence of all of the presidents of the ITs having a religious bias then? Fair enough.
    recedite wrote: »
    What happened to "He who pays the piper calls the tune"?
    Can't say I've ever seen it encoded in any binding rule system for the ITs, but I could be wrong?

    Funny that you read "I am happy to progress the delivery of the Catholic Chaplaincy service along the lines suggested" as "fcuk off and mind your own business" though, I guess it's all about perspective, eh?


  • #28
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    member of the church of the fyling spaghetti monster john Hamill explains on Shannonside radio how he will now be able to apply for the position of chaplain at the Dundalk IT now the president of the college has decided to advertise the job rather then let the local Bishop pick the person https://www.facebook.com/AtheistIreland/posts/10153525905719017 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzuq5F9CY6eSZV9CRlhRZENlX1E/view


  • #29
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    some PQs on this
    Jan O'Sullivan recruitment of chaplains is also a matter for individual higher education institutions however, it should be in line with public sector appointment criteria and the provisions of the Employment Control Framework for the sector.
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-22a.3104&s=chaplain#g3108.r

    Employment Control Framework for the Higher Education Sector
    2011
    -
    2014
    http://www.hea.ie/sites/default/files/revised_ecf_2011-2014_june_2011.pdf
    so chaplains are under the ECF?
    which category of post is chaplain? I suppose Core

    the ECF seems most to do with lifting of hiring embargoe rather then the method of hiring


  • #30
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Public sector appointment criteria stipulate that the jobs must be advertised in the public domain.
    Whereas these jobs are being filled from within the ranks of priests, by the bishop, acting on behalf of the higher education institutions.
    What's Jan going to do about it?


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  • #31
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    To ask the Minister for Education and Skills further to Parliamentary Questions 1198,1199 and 1286 of 22 September 2015, if her Department monitors whether institutes of technology adhere to the employment control framework; the actions her Department takes when a notification is made that an institute of technology has breached the framework; whether it is legal for third level institutions to discriminate on the basis of religion when appointing persons as chaplains.
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-29a.1169&s=chaplain#g1174.r
    Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
    Link to this: Individually | In context
    555. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her views that State-funded contracts are awarded on a sectarian basis by public bodies; if there are public procurement guidelines available which would ensure value for money within the third level education sector. [33378/15]
    Jan O'Sullivan
    The recruitment of staff is also a matter for individual higher education institutions, however, it should be in line with public sector appointment criteria and the provisions of the Employment Control Framework for the sector. Officials of my Department have been in discussions with the HEA in relation to this matter and it has been agreed that the HEA will undertake a survey on the recruitment of chaplaincy services within the institutions.

    success? will we ever see the result of this?


  • #32
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,964 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    It's kinda depressing to see that the only politicians willing to take on the patronage model are the far-left. :(


  • #33
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    It's kinda depressing to see that the only politicians willing to take on the patronage model are the far-left. :(

    Craughwell raised it in the Seanad https://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2015-05-28a.36&s=chaplains+section%3Aseanad#g113 when Hamill asked him to


  • #34
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    more on this

    Bishops Secretly Awarded €500,000 Annually, in Public Contracts
    http://atheist.ie/2015/10/bishops-secretly-awarded-e500000-annually-in-public-contracts/

    i meant to look up more about the board of directors, more docs going up on feed, https://twitter.com/atheistie/status/652173326920646656

    Catholic Church Pockets Thousands in Student Fees
    http://www.oxygen.ie/catholic-church-pockets-thousands-in-student-fees/
    lol
    HEA to investigate college chaplain appointments RTE
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1008/733283-education-chaplains/
    Athiest Ireland has questioned why public money is being awarded to churches with no public job advertisements or invitations to tender for the contracts.

    It has also questioned why there seem to be no records of board decisions regarding awarding these funds to the Catholic and other churches. It has pointed out that the Institutes of Technology are supposed to be entirely secular entities.

    Atheist Ireland said pastoral positions should be open to all people with pastoral and counselling qualifications.
    great investigative work by John Hamill and Atheist Ireland, we chat they do this


  • #35
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,462 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Inquiry into way public funds used to pay third-level chaplains - Irish Times
    The Minister for Education has ordered an investigation into the way public funds are used to pay for third-level college chaplains, some of whom receive €50,000 a year.

    The majority of chaplains in universities, institutes of technology and colleges of education are Catholic and usually male.

    The Higher Education Authority (HEA) confirmed it was drawing up the terms of the investigation, which will examine the way publicly-funded colleges appoint chaplains.

    Recruitment procedures and pay for chaplains vary widely, with some directly employed by colleges and other provided by churches as a contracted service.

    Chaplains’ salaries are met by the colleges in some cases. In other instances they are paid by their churches, with their services contracted by the colleges.

    When I was a student in DIT in the late 80s-early90s, I vaguely knew there was one or two of these lads around, there was a little office marked 'chaplain' I often went past, never saw anyone go in or out, never heard of anyone contacting them or them doing anything around campus at all.

    I naively always assumed the RC church paid for them not the college :mad:

    Scrap the cap!



  • #36
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Yes, well done John Hamill. Didn't someone with that username used to post on this forum?
    I'm surprised how much variation there is in the payments being made. Maybe its just public service increments building up over the years.
    Still, €70,000 is a lot of money for handing out prayer cards featuring the amazing Flying Friar of Cupertino.


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  • #37
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,462 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    that's the point recedite. A public sector job is open to competition on merit, has a published list of job requirements, has a published pay scale.

    This a slush fund for churches

    Scrap the cap!



  • #38
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    Yes, well done John Hamill. Didn't someone with that username used to post on this forum?
    You may be thinking of Mark Hamill?
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm surprised how much variation there is in the payments being made. Maybe its just public service increments building up over the years.
    A lot of the chaplaincy positions are part-time, so the occupant gets a salary based on a proportion of the full-time salary for whatever grade the chaplain position is linked to.

    In other cases chaplaincy services are provided on a contract basis, so there isn't necessarily any direct link to a public service pay grade, and the amount of the contract payment likely reflects the extent of the chaplaincy services that are to be provided. My guess would be that where the figures given are in round numbers of thousands of euros, these are contracts for chaplaincy services rather than appointments to chaplaincy posts on the public service payroll.
    recedite wrote: »
    Still, €70,000 is a lot of money for handing out prayer cards featuring the amazing Flying Friar of Cupertino.
    There may well be no chaplain earning $70,000.The AI calculations seem to assume that all chaplains on a public service pay scale are paid at the top of their scale. (They may know this to be the case but, if so, they don't say so. They look to me to be just assuming it. If it's an assumption, it seems to be one made because it "bigs up" the AI case rather than because it's likely to be true.)

    Plus, the role of the chaplain may be a little more than you suggest. Not even AI claims that handing out prayer cards is the extent of what chaplains do.

    I also not the curious claim "bishop paid in secret" made in also every case, including cases where the chaplain appears to be appointed to a public service position. Is AI claiming that, although the chaplain is appointed and performs the duties of the post, his public service salary is secretly paid to the bishop? If that's not the case, then what payment exactly is made to the bishop? And if it's a secret payment, how does AI come to know about it?


  • #39
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    The documents also indicate that in some cases the moratorium on public appointments may be being breached in relation to the employment of chaplains. The HEA declined to comment on this, saying it needed to know more.
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1008/733283-education-chaplains/ interesting were they core employees or not,, nobody cared, presidents just did what they liked


  • #40
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    back in 2013 UCC wanted to pay for only part time ones not 3 full time chaplains http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/university-chaplains-may-be-axed

    church fought it

    in 2015 UCC agreed to pay for 1 full time http://irishcatholic.ie/article/move-secure-ucc-chaplaincy-services while Notre Dame college provided the others (although who paying what is a bit vague)

    RTC boards
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/29/section/4/enacted/en/html#sec4

    see CIT http://www.cit.ie/aboutcit/management/governance/
    chair
    cllrs from etb
    staff /academic/non
    student
    trade union
    industry and societal bodies

    AI rightly asking what the Student body has done, will do about this, presume some of money comes from student supports services budget

    did this ever get to the board, would they spot it on the main accounts? perhaps those on the audit committee should have noticed


  • #41
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You may be thinking of Mark Hamill?
    Ah yes. This one must be the brother :)
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    A lot of the chaplaincy positions are part-time, so the occupant gets a salary based on a proportion of the full-time salary for whatever grade the chaplain position is linked to.
    In other cases chaplaincy services are provided on a contract basis, so there isn't necessarily any direct link to a public service pay grade..
    But I note that the article says
    It is also notable from this table that of the 12 full-time chaplains, all of them are Roman Catholic and 11 of them are male.
    And as there are 12 RC chaplains listed, it seems reasonable to assume these are the full-time ones. Yet the payments being made for them (though this is not necessarily what the chaplains themselves receive, after the bishop takes his cut) vary from €21.6K to €67.6K.
    I suspect the posts which are paid as "a lecturers salary" are far more lucrative to RCC than those paid on a contract basis.

    Peregrinus wrote: »
    There may well be no chaplain earning $70,000.The AI calculations seem to assume that all chaplains on a public service pay scale are paid at the top of their scale. (They may know this to be the case but, if so, they don't say so. They look to me to be just assuming it. If it's an assumption, it seems to be one made because it "bigs up" the AI case rather than because it's likely to be true.)
    I'm making a different assumption; that they got this figure from a FOI request, rather than just making it up (that's going on their past reputation of normally being factual and honest).
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I also note the curious claim "bishop paid in secret" made in also every case, including cases where the chaplain appears to be appointed to a public service position.
    Note also the text..
    there has been no public job advertisement or public invitation to tender for the contracts and no board decision has been recorded with respect to awarding public monies to a specific Church. Rather, the State monies are typically awarded directly to a Roman Catholic Bishop in private, who may then appoint whichever priest he prefers to the publicly-funded role.
    Bearing in mind that
    1)freedom of information requests are only a fairly modern phenomenon
    2) they are still quite a complicated process
    3) most of the amounts are not normally disclosed publicly, and were only discovered through this FOI procedure
    4) the general public would mostly assume that chaplains proselytize at their own expense, or at their church's expense.

    Then I think the phrase "bishop paid in secret" is apt.


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  • #42
    JohnHamill151
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭JohnHamill151


    Atheist Ireland did not use any estimates or assumptions to arrive at the total numbers. We simply asked 13 colleges how much they each pay their chaplains and reported the total.

    From the 13 colleges, only 2 don't have a chaplain at all (Dun Laoghaire and Blanchardstown). The remaining 11 colleges employ 12 full time chaplains. All appointed by the local Bishop. 11 priests and 1 nun. Only Waterford and Cork employ the chaplain directly. The rest have a contract for services with the local diocese (the cash is paid to the diocese, not the chaplain).

    We also asked the average attendance at religious services run by the chaplains. The highest average attendance was 9 in Sligo.

    Only one college advertised their chaplaincy role (the Mayo campus at GMIT). For the rest, there was no interview, no advertisement, no selection criteria. The college has no idea who the best candidate for the students is.


  • #43
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Jaysus, the other brother has arrived now :)
    Well done on the research BTW, good job!


  • #44
    JohnHamill151
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭JohnHamill151


    Thanks. Mark isn't my brother though. Cousin. :-)


  • #45
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,462 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I always assumed he just liked that fella in Star Wars :)

    Well done on this. Hopefully it will get some media traction (the IT are good about reporting this sort of thing, others not though.) It's a shocking waste of taxpayers' money which could be far better spent on actual qualified counsellors who are not trying to push a supernatural agenda :rolleyes:

    Scrap the cap!



  • #46
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    And as there are 12 RC chaplains listed, it seems reasonable to assume these are the full-time ones. Yet the payments being made for them (though this is not necessarily what the chaplains themselves receive, after the bishop takes his cut) vary from €21.6K to €67.6K.
    Fair enough. I was looking at the range 9k - 69k, which I think must include part time chaplains.

    I agree, that, for full-timer, a range of 21k to 69k does seem striking. But I have to say that one possible explanation that does occur to me not all of the chaplains being paid in this range are full-time. I know that the article mentions “the 12 full-time chaplains”, but one possibility that does occur to me is that - perish the thought! - they article may not be accurate in this regard. The don’t say how they know that they are all full-time and, similarly with their apparent assumption that all chaplains are paid at the top of their scale, they could simply be aligning their assumptions with their outrage.

    And, for the record, I await any evidence that the bishop is getting a cut. Or even any reason to think that he might be, apart from the (apparently completely unsupported) claim in this article that he is.
    recedite wrote: »
    I suspect the posts which are paid as "a lecturers salary" are far more lucrative to RCC than those paid on a contract basis.
    Well, they’re far more lucrative to the chaplains, obviously.

    But, lucrative to the church? Is this connected with the claim that the chaplains salaries are actually being paid to the bishop? What really strikes me is that that claim is a startling one, and it’s presented without any source, detail, any explanation, any account of how the writer comes to know this - and above all without any evidence. Am I alone in having my sceptical instincts triggered by this?
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm making a different assumption; that they got this figure from a FOI request, rather than just making it up (that's going on their past reputation of normally being factual and honest).
    I’m guessing that the FOI request tells them that the chaplain is appointed on the lecturer salary grade, and gives the pay range for the grade. I think this for three reasons. First, why else does the article give us this information? Secondly, that’s the usual form for replying to an FoI request about public remuneration. (What an individual workers is actually paid, within that scale, is a personal matter.) Thirdly, if it were in fact the case that every chaplain appointed to a public service grade was being paid at the top of his grade, don’t you think the author would point out this highly unusual circumstance?
    recedite wrote: »
    Note also the text..Bearing in mind that
    1)freedom of information requests are only a fairly modern phenomenon
    2) they are still quite a complicated process
    3) most of the amounts are not normally disclosed publicly, and were only discovered through this FOI procedure
    4) the general public would mostly assume that chaplains proselytize at their own expense, or at their church's expense.

    Then I think the phrase "bishop paid in secret" is apt.
    I await any evidence that the bishop is paid at all. And, until I see it, the claim that the bishop is “paid in secret” is, to put it charitably, overblown.


  • #47
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    JohnHamill151 wrote: »
    Atheist Ireland did not use any estimates or assumptions to arrive at the total numbers. We simply asked 13 colleges how much they each pay their chaplains and reported the total.
    Thanks for this, John.

    For clarification, can I ask:

    Did Waterford IT say that their chaplain is paid €69,617? Or did they say that he is paid on the lecturer salary grade, for which the scale is €47,620 - €69,617? And, if the latter, did they say at what point on the scale he is actually paid?

    Did Cork IT say that their chaplain is paid €47,487? Or did they say that he is paid on the lecturer salary grade, for which the scale is €39,715 - €47,487? And, if the latter, did they say at what point on the scale he is actually paid?


  • #48
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    But, lucrative to the church? Is this connected with the claim that the chaplains salaries are actually being paid to the bishop? What really strikes me is that that claim is a startling one, and it’s presented without any source, detail, any explanation, any account of how the writer comes to know this - and above all without any evidence. Am I alone in having my sceptical instincts triggered by this?
    The reason I am not sceptical is because I have often heard over the years that some staff working in the health service (particularly doing home visits for post-natal and geriatric care) are actually nuns, even though they might not wear the nuns habit. And that their salary is paid to their religious order, where they live with other nuns (who presumably do not have a salary).
    Whether that is actually true or not I cannot say with certainty, but I'd have no reason to doubt it, or object to it, so long as they were appointed to those jobs fairly and in an open competition. And if they share their salary within a commune, that is their own business. Though really, the salary should be paid direct to the employee, and then if they want to turn it over to their leader, that's fine.


  • #49
    JohnHamill151
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭JohnHamill151


    Kitty Holland had a piece in the Irish Times, which was pretty awful. Emma O'Kelly's piece on the RTÉ site was much better. There was also one of the most widely read articles on Ireland's most popular student website "Oxygen_IE".

    I'm baffled as to why student unions aren't taking more of an interest in how their support services budgets are spent in private by college Presidents.


  • #50
    JohnHamill151
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭JohnHamill151


    The cash is paid directly to the Bishop in almost all cases. The evidence is the response to FoI requests, which include invoices issued by the Bishop and payment receipts provided by the colleges.

    You are correct that this claim is startling. You're skepticism is however misplaced. It is entirely true and fully evidenced.


  • #51
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,676 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    JohnHamill151 wrote: »
    The cash is paid directly to the Bishop in almost all cases. The evidence is the response to FoI requests, which include invoices issued by the Bishop and payment receipts provided by the colleges.

    You are correct that this claim is startling. You're skepticism is however misplaced. It is entirely true and fully evidenced.
    '
    I take it that by "almost all cases", you mean "cases where the bishop/diocese contracts to provide chaplaincy services to the institution".

    I'd still expect that, where the chaplain is appointed to a post in the public service, his salary is paid to him. Am I wrong?


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