Why the anger against current government?

steddyeddy · 16-01-2014 11:39pm

Simply put they turned a blind eye to corruption and cronyism. They also made massive cut backs in essential areas like health and education while at the same time being totally blase to 50 million consultant fees, HSE pensions and advisor top ups.

Shady Tady · 16-01-2014 11:51pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Simply put they turned a blind eye to corruption and cronyism. They also made massive cut backs in essential areas like health and education while at the same time being totally blase to 50 million consultant fees, HSE pensions and advisor top ups.

They held the high moral ground and rammed austerity down our throats, now they are being seen for what they really are with Irish water, this will be an interesting year, I love the way the PAC hounded the CRC but why didn't they bring in the ministers who breached pay limits for their advisers, in other words Top ups when they are not their own pals. There will serious fall out before the local and European elections!

steddyeddy · 16-01-2014 11:52pm

Anyone who says there is no money for a certain service is talking crap.

Scofflaw · 17-01-2014 2:49am

Grass. Fence. Green.

amused,
Scofflaw

_Kaiser_ · 17-01-2014 9:51am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Grass. Fence. Green.

amused,
Scofflaw

Not true Scofflaw.

Kenny and co campaigned on the promise of a new approach, reform and transparency - instead what we got is more of the same parish pump, corrupt unaccountable incompetence and spin with added arrogance for effect!

Irish Water is just the latest example. We've had the LPT/HHC that as it turns out isn't ring-fenced at all, Reilly and his strokes to add extra resources for his constituency .. all while Kenny refuses to debate or defend his policies (something which I reckon cost him his Seanad campaign) and lectures us like children on TV while all this goes on.

FF are no better of course but to suggest that people's dissatisfaction with the current shower is just a case of the grass being greener is both naive and insulting to be honest.

lufties · 17-01-2014 9:55am

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not true Scofflaw.

Kenny and co campaigned on the promise of a new approach, reform and transparency - instead what we got is more of the same parish pump, corrupt unaccountable incompetence and spin with added arrogance for effect!

Irish Water is just the latest example. We've had the LPT/HHC that as it turns out isn't ring-fenced at all, Reilly and his strokes to add extra resources for his constituency .. all while Kenny refuses to debate or defend his policies (something which I reckon cost him his Seanad campaign) and lectures us like children on TV while all this goes on.

FF are no better of course but to suggest that people's dissatisfaction with the current shower is just a case of the grass being greener is both naive and insulting to be honest.

Ireland is in crisis as far as I can see, the public need to get this shower of clowns out!

raymon · 17-01-2014 10:55am

lufties wrote: »

Ireland is in crisis as far as I can see, the public need to get this shower of clowns out!

Lufties, ( or others ) who would you rather be in government then ? Can you propose the alternative ?

Dave! · 17-01-2014 10:55am

lufties wrote: »

Ireland is in crisis as far as I can see, the public need to get this shower of clowns out!

What viable alternative do you think would do a better job?

If your answer includes Stephen Donnelly as Minister for Finance, then please re-read the question.

lufties · 17-01-2014 10:56am

raymon wrote: »

Lufties, ( or others ) who would you rather be in government then ? Can you propose the alternative ?

ANY alternative is better than this corrupt, greedy shower!

raymon · 17-01-2014 11:00am

lufties wrote: »

ANY alternative is better than this corrupt, greedy shower!

Can you propose a breakdown of who you think?

Even 6 or 7 politicians names.

And for the record , I am not a great fan of the govt

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 11:08am

lufties wrote: »

ANY alternative is better than this corrupt, greedy shower!

So, A FF/SF coalition, then?

Really?

lufties · 17-01-2014 11:09am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So, A FF/SF coalition, then?

Really?

SF and Independents

_Puma_ · 17-01-2014 11:38am

Must admit I have been pretty apathetic to politics in this country and any alternatives we have but the current scandals being reported have really got my back up.

Nothing is going to change unless people start to reject the current party politics that is rife at all levels of government in this country. Over the past year or two it has become pretty clear to me that most of the current parties do not have the will to reform the current political system here or tackle corruption that is rife within their parties. They are solely concerned with the preservation of their parties and will promise the sun moon and stars to achieve this.We need new educated, young people that reject the current parties to come through and hopefully by the time the GE's come around after 2020 we will have a genuine alternative.

This will all start with the coming local elections. In my constituency I know of at least 2 new candidates, not aligned to a party intending to stand. I'm not taking about Paddy down the road who wants fix a road but young educated people with genuine vision and policies. If they come to my door I will be interested to hear about what they have to say. If you come to my door canvassing and you are aligned to a current political party, you will not get my vote.

If we get enough of these new people that reject the current parties on board in local government then maybe something will start to happen.

raymon · 17-01-2014 11:50am

lufties wrote: »

SF and Independents

Who would you make ministers ??? Ming ? Wallace? Lowry ? Snodaigh? Mattie ? Healy Rae?

Or would you be more to favour Doherty, Donnelly , Ross, Toibin, Boyd Barrett?

Just name a few proposed ministers and their department? I just want to see where you are going with this ?

For Forks Sake · 17-01-2014 11:56am

lufties wrote: »

SF and Independents

Are we ignoring the fact that SF and all the independents (let alone the ones who'd have nothing to do with SF) in the Dail only have 42 seats?

raymon · 17-01-2014 12:00pm

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Are we ignoring the fact that SF and all the independents (let alone the ones who'd have nothing to do with SF) in the Dail only have 42 seats?

That's true - you would have to have Bertie's boys in there too based on the latest polls.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-01-2014 12:24pm

Sand wrote: »

That is essentially what we are saying. Essentially if everyone from the government, to the civil service, to the central banks to the economists on TV say everything is great the economy is rosy it is incumbent on the voter to actually set-up their own research unit, somehow break into the Central Bank and DoF to steal the budget figures and banking regulatory reports, crunch the numbers and reach a view that contradicts the people they pay tax money to regulate and govern the country.
If the voter fails to do this, well they have only themselves to blame. Of course, the voter must find time to do this in between doing their own job, taking care of their kids, sleeping, and who knows having a social life of some description. I'm not exaggerating - that is the view of many contributors to the thread. My personal view is they took a generally reasonable truism about getting the government we deserve and have extended it to an absurd degree.

No need to break into the Central Bank, just common sense to know that a terraced house in Dublin 6W is not worth €550k and mortgages fifteen times your salary is not sustainable.

Sand wrote: »

As for Tickers - to save yourself a lot of time Tickers very clearly does not believe anyone can have a valid reason to be annoyed with the current govt. Nobody. Anyone who claims to have reason to be annoyed with the government is either a liar, an idiot or morally inferior in some way. Many people have tried to explain their reasons - Tickers has entertained none of them.

Do you want the Govt to tell you that it's not your fault, pat you on the head, rub your belly and tell you everything is going to all right? Sorry nut people have to come to the realisation the Government is not the reason for all of their problems. The majority of posters who are angry can't even give tangible reasons as to why they are angry, instead they just blurt vague statements to vent their frustration because they think think they should be entitled to something. "crooks", "go **** yourself attitude".

Lets have a look at some of the things which have actually been achieved, all in the space of three years:

• Fiscal treaty
• Judges pay
• Introduced personal insolvency legislation
• Legislated for abortion which previous governments avoided
• Passed a referendum on children's rights
• Renegotiated the interest rate on the EU/IMF loan
• Extended the term of our EU/IMF loan
• Managed to maintain our corporate tax regime which has come under huge pressure from competing countries
• Cut billions out of public sector pay while managing to maintain the majority of our services.

Then we have people jumping up and down over Anglo but when given the opportunity to give the government more powers to do something via the House of the Oireachtas Inquiries referendum we voted no!

Ditto with Seanád referendum, government gave people the opportunity to abolish a pointless institution which effectively has no power and has always been a breeding ground for politicians to cut their teeth and again we vote no.

As for property tax, water charges etc yes unpopular policies but we were always on borrowed time with these and the days of free public services are unfortunately coming to an end, and that's not just Ireland. Health, agreed this is not an acceptable situation but I think we have to bear in mind that we are barely three years off the back of what is effectively a fifty year Fianna fail legacy.

Taking into account all of the above, I think that this isn't a bad track record for a new government only half way into its first term after twenty years in opposition and off the back of an unprecedented economic crisis and an IMF intervention.

tayto lover · 17-01-2014 1:20pm

Dave! wrote: »

What viable alternative do you think would do a better job?

If your answer includes Stephen Donnelly as Minister for Finance, then please re-read the question.

Well that is the crucial question right there.

There is no viable alternative at the moment.
As long as people are happy to vote the way daddy voted then the country is indeed fcuked.

FF - I will never vote for again.

FG - just as bad with cronyism and Golden Circle friends same as FF.

Labour - Forgot all their principles when they got into power.

SF - enough said. Although in fairness they seem to be trying to re-invent.

Ming & Co. -- ah no thanks.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 1:21pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

No need to break into the Central Bank, just common sense to know that a terraced house in Dublin 6W is not worth €550k and mortgages fifteen times your salary is not sustainable.

Do you want the Govt to tell you that it's not your fault, pat you on the head, rub your belly and tell you everything is going to all right? Sorry nut people have to come to the realisation the Government is not the reason for all of their problems. The majority of posters who are angry can't even give tangible reasons as to why they are angry, instead they just blurt vague statements to vent their frustration because they think think they should be entitled to something. "crooks", "go **** yourself attitude".

Lets have a look at some of the things which have actually been achieved, all in the space of three years:

• Fiscal treaty
• Judges pay
• Introduced personal insolvency legislation
• Legislated for abortion which previous governments avoided
• Passed a referendum on children's rights
• Renegotiated the interest rate on the EU/IMF loan
• Extended the term of our EU/IMF loan
• Managed to maintain our corporate tax regime which has come under huge pressure from competing countries
• Cut billions out of public sector pay while managing to maintain the majority of our services.

Then we have people jumping up and down over Anglo but when given the opportunity to give the government more powers to do something via the House of the Oireachtas Inquiries referendum we voted no!

Ditto with Seanád referendum, government gave people the opportunity to abolish a pointless institution which effectively has no power and has always been a breeding ground for politicians to cut their teeth and again we vote no.

As for property tax, water charges etc yes unpopular policies but we were always on borrowed time with these and the days of free public services are unfortunately coming to an end, and that's not just Ireland. Health, agreed this is not an acceptable situation but I think we have to bear in mind that we are barely three years off the back of what is effectively a fifty year Fianna fail legacy.

Taking into account all of the above, I think that this isn't a bad track record for a new government only half way into its first term after twenty years in opposition and off the back of an unprecedented economic crisis and an IMF intervention.

There is absolutely no doubt that all you say did take place but you need to dissect these things and analyse what their effect has been on society in general.
The current Government came to power on a ticket of honesty, transparency, and equitability, none of these are evident in day to day business.
Sure, Judicial pay has been cut but you must remember that, thanks to Ahern and benchmarking, pay at higher levels in the public and civil service was inflated and can you really say that a 10% cut in Judicial pay is equitable with a 10% cut in Invalidity pension? Are there any judges relying on VdeP to exist on a daily basis?
As regard the legislation you mention, the abortion issue was forced on them by unfortunate events in Galway, personal insolvency was forced on them by the Troika, renegotiation of the EU/Imf loan terms was always a runner, though it must be said, Noonan performed well.
The Government went from an 80/20 favourable majority to a loss in the Senate referendum, it is ridiculous to say that most people weren't or indeed aren't in favour of reform of the Senate, they just didn't like the way the Government went about it..
Certainly billions has been cut from the PS wage bill but again too many front line staff have been purged and not enough administrative staff. Do you see a pattern emerge here? Front line public service are a shadow of what they were.
Where are these "public services" we are getting for free? Perhaps you'd like to list what services we get in return for Property Tax, PRSI, USC?
As for Irish Water, probably the biggest lie yet. Supposedly set up to conserve a vital resource, it turns out to be yet another gravy train. At last estimate 600,000000 will have been spent before the body is fully operational and not a cent spent on purifying supply or repairing infrastructure. We're being told now that conserving water will lead to higher charges and that's before we even know what charges will be.
Yes, a good job done.

raymon · 17-01-2014 1:29pm

bmaxi wrote: »

We're being told now that conserving water will lead to higher charges and that's before we even know what charges will be.
Yes, a good job done.

Who is telling you this?

Is it true?

Was it one of the independent newspapers.?

_Kaiser_ · 17-01-2014 1:38pm

raymon wrote: »

Who is telling you this?

Is it true?

Was it one of the independent newspapers.?

Water users to pay standing charges even if they don't use water - BreakingNews

Irish Water may hike charges if demand is lower than expected - Radio Kerry

South-East Radio report on the same thing

RTE report saying the same

etc etc.. That's from a 2 minute Google search!

tayto lover · 17-01-2014 1:40pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Water users to pay standing charges even if they don't use water - BreakingNews

Irish Water may hike charges if demand is lower than expected - Radio Kerry

South-East Radio report on the same thing

RTE report saying the same

etc etc.. That's from a 2 minute Google search!

Well someone has to pay for the consultants and Golden Circle.

raymon · 17-01-2014 2:17pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Water users to pay standing charges even if they don't use water - BreakingNews

Irish Water may hike charges if demand is lower than expected - Radio Kerry

South-East Radio report on the same thing

RTE report saying the same

etc etc.. That's from a 2 minute Google search!

That speculation in all of those stories. We don't know what's going to happen.

I don't want to defend Phil Hogan but we don't even know what the charges are yet. So how would you know that they will be increased?

_Kaiser_ · 17-01-2014 2:36pm

raymon wrote: »

That speculation in all of those stories. We don't know what's going to happen.

I don't want to defend Phil Hogan but we don't even know what the charges are yet. So how would you know that they will be increased?

Prior experience? I think we all know this is just testing the water (excuse the pun!

) to see what exactly they will be able to get away with.

I think we can be certain that there'll be a standing charge (as is the case with the ESB, Gas, Phone companies) and that this charge will only increase over time for various flimsy reasons.

It'll never decrease anyway that's for sure!

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 2:43pm

raymon wrote: »

That speculation in all of those stories. We don't know what's going to happen.

I don't want to defend Phil Hogan but we don't even know what the charges are yet. So how would you know that they will be increased?

As far as I remember Irish Water's CEO said their model would be Thames Water in the UK and that is certainly in their (Thames) model. In cases like this I find it is what is not said that counts, surely it would be easy for Irish Water or Hogan to deny this was a contingency, but they didn't. Given that the Government has lied about so much in it's short term, surely this wouldn't have been a problem.
Let's face it, this is to be another tax, a revenue raising exercise where charges paid by the consumer will bear no resemblance to performance or cost of provision.

Scofflaw · 17-01-2014 2:44pm

bmaxi wrote:

The Government went from an 80/20 favourable majority to a loss in the Senate referendum, it is ridiculous to say that most people weren't or indeed aren't in favour of reform of the Senate, they just didn't like the way the Government went about it..

Well, yes - not offering reform, for a start, just straight abolition.

cordially,
Scofflaw

raymon · 17-01-2014 4:06pm

bmaxi wrote: »

As far as I remember Irish Water's CEO said their model would be Thames Water in the UK and that is certainly in their (Thames) model. In cases like this I find it is what is not said that counts, surely it would be easy for Irish Water or Hogan to deny this was a contingency, but they didn't. Given that the Government has lied about so much in it's short term, surely this wouldn't have been a problem.
Let's face it, this is to be another tax, a revenue raising exercise where charges paid by the consumer will bear no resemblance to performance or cost of provision.

I heard Irish Water's CEO say that no charging structure has been decided upon.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 4:32pm

raymon wrote: »

I heard Irish Water's CEO say that no charging structure has been decided upon.

We know no charging structure has been decided upon, that is not the thrust of my post.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 4:46pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, yes - not offering reform, for a start, just straight abolition.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A bit simplistic but true. However it was more than just that, people were and are, more mistrustful of this Government than any previous one. The argument from the "No" side that this was a power grab, struck a chord. This coupled with the fact that long promised reform of the Dáil had stalled and we still have the obscenity of TDs being able to claim as much in unvouched expenses as someone on minimum wage can earn, after deductions, for forty hours hard work, effectively a whole week's pay for no more effort than to submit a chit. Or the scandal of a senior Minister, already on a plum salary, claiming tens of thousands for travelling less than twenty miles to the Dáil, while slashing services and increasing the tax burden on the old and sick. The feeling abroad was, we're not going to give these guys any more rein.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-01-2014 4:50pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Where are these "public services" we are getting for free? Perhaps you'd like to list what services we get in return for Property Tax, PRSI, USC?

OK then, here are just a few:

1. Free Clean drinking water
2. Free Bin collection and street sweeping
3. Free Housing for people on low income
4. Free Medical card
5. Free medical prescriptions
6. Free Hospital care including free heart surgery or any other operation
7. Free money for unemployed people currently €188 per week for a single person which is also the average industrial wage for people in Spain, and before you say that the cost of living in Spain is cheaper than here, not to the same extent as the disparity in wages in social welfare benefits
8. Free fuel supplements
9. Free clothing supplements
10. Free back to school allowance

????

Zubeneschamali · 17-01-2014 4:52pm

bmaxi wrote: »

we're not going to give these guys any more rein.

Yeah, to punish the politicians, we're going to keep a useless talking shop for wannabee politicians and failed Dail candidates which is largely filled at the Taoiseach's whim and costs millions every year.

That'll teach them!

Then we'll moan that the government won't keep their election promises.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-01-2014 4:55pm

bmaxi wrote: »

A bit simplistic but true. However it was more than just that, people were and are, more mistrustful of this Government than any previous one. The argument from the "No" side that this was a power grab, struck a chord. This coupled with the fact that long promised reform of the Dáil had stalled and we still have the obscenity of TDs being able to claim as much in unvouched expenses as someone on minimum wage can earn, after deductions, for forty hours hard work, effectively a whole week's pay for no more effort than to submit a chit. Or the scandal of a senior Minister, already on a plum salary, claiming tens of thousands for travelling less than twenty miles to the Dáil, while slashing services and increasing the tax burden on the old and sick. The feeling abroad was, we're not going to give these guys any more rein.

What has this got to do with the Seanad referendum? Government gave you the opportunity to remove 60 senators on a salary €65,621 which is more than what a TD claims in expenses. Do the math.

For Reals · 17-01-2014 5:46pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

OK then, here are just a few:

1. Free Clean drinking water
2. Free Bin collection and street sweeping
3. Free Housing for people on low income
4. Free Medical card
5. Free medical prescriptions
6. Free Hospital care including free heart surgery or any other operation
7. Free money for unemployed people currently €188 per week for a single person which is also the average industrial wage for people in Spain, and before you say that the cost of living in Spain is cheaper than here, not to the same extent as the disparity in wages in social welfare benefits
8. Free fuel supplements
9. Free clothing supplements
10. Free back to school allowance

????

All services are funded by the taxpayer.
I mean if there isn't a specifically themed/named tax its free?
I await the 'Fellah what cuts the grass that does be on round-a-bouts tax'.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free
'not costing or charging anything'
'not costing any money'

Creating a new tax for an already taxpayer funded service is simply a scam.

flutered · 17-01-2014 6:30pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

OK then, here are just a few:

1. Free Clean drinking water
2. Free Bin collection and street sweeping
3. Free Housing for people on low income
4. Free Medical card
5. Free medical prescriptions
6. Free Hospital care including free heart surgery or any other operation
7. Free money for unemployed people currently €188 per week for a single person which is also the average industrial wage for people in Spain, and before you say that the cost of living in Spain is cheaper than here, not to the same extent as the disparity in wages in social welfare benefits
8. Free fuel supplements
9. Free clothing supplements
10. Free back to school allowance

????

water charge 130
bin collection 280 no street cleaning, i have to pay some one to keep the road clean
free housing for people on low income, i never got anything in the housing area free
free medical card, yes i have, but so has a guy down the road who was bequeated £1m, plus his already large bank balance, fair play to him
free scripts, not really, my monthly meds were collected today €20, still reasonable
free hospital care not really, €130 this morning to an oncologist.
free money for the unemployed, not really a lot of us worked most of our lives, i paid income tax at the rate of 70% back in the day.
the wages in spain, oh yeah, the chairman of letrim county council gets paid more than the premier of spain, the chief of our armed forces gets more than the heads of the us and uk forces, they have a couple of wars to organise, our guy has only a few st patricks day parades to organise
free fuel suplements yes, but there are not too many of them, also they are being cut while the price of fuel is rising,
free clothing, no i am not entitled to it,
free back to school allowance, no i do not have any of school age, but if i had i have worked long enough to be entitle to something in lieu,
fancy wages, no
unvouched expenses no
to up of pension no
tax free lup sum on retirement no,
op i could go on and on, all your jibes are aimed at the poor and disabled, the poor and disabled, their carers are not a burden on my country, please look else where, judging by your posts may i suggest a mirror.

flutered · 17-01-2014 6:37pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

What has this got to do with the Seanad referendum? Government gave you the opportunity to remove 60 senators on a salary €65,621 which is more than what a TD claims in expenses. Do the math.

naw it is not the math, it is the reason behind the referendum, the t-shoch wanted more power for the cabinet, the only thing that they can organise is another scam law to take more from the working poor and the welfare classes, while organising coups and large moxies for their benefactors.

Shady Tady · 17-01-2014 6:50pm

bmaxi wrote: »

We know no charging structure has been decided upon, that is not the thrust of my post.

An overcharging structure i bet!

Scofflaw · 17-01-2014 7:04pm

bmaxi wrote: »

A bit simplistic but true. However it was more than just that, people were and are, more mistrustful of this Government than any previous one. The argument from the "No" side that this was a power grab, struck a chord. This coupled with the fact that long promised reform of the Dáil had stalled and we still have the obscenity of TDs being able to claim as much in unvouched expenses as someone on minimum wage can earn, after deductions, for forty hours hard work, effectively a whole week's pay for no more effort than to submit a chit. Or the scandal of a senior Minister, already on a plum salary, claiming tens of thousands for travelling less than twenty miles to the Dáil, while slashing services and increasing the tax burden on the old and sick. The feeling abroad was, we're not going to give these guys any more rein.

Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil centralise power into their own hands when in government. Fianna Fáil tend to attack other power centres at the local level - abolishing domestic rates (and thus damaging the public-council relationship), abolishing the dual mandate (and thus damaging the local power of backbenchers) - while Fine Gael tend to attack other national power structures - aiming for power over the judges' pay, quasi-judicial powers for the Dáil (or rather the government), abolition of the Seanad.

The other Ministers were made less effective by FF's 'decentralisation' programme, which farmed out bits of every department bar the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance to umpteen small towns.

The result is a country which can be effectively governed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, as we saw on the night of the Guarantee.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Shady Tady · 17-01-2014 7:16pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil centralise power into their own hands when in government. Fianna Fáil tend to attack other power centres at the local level - abolishing domestic rates (and thus damaging the public-council relationship), abolishing the dual mandate (and thus damaging the local power of backbenchers) - while Fine Gael tend to attack other national power structures - aiming for power over the judges' pay, quasi-judicial powers for the Dáil (or rather the government), abolition of the Seanad.

The other Ministers were made less effective by FF's 'decentralisation' programme, which farmed out bits of every department bar the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance to umpteen small towns.

The result is a country which can be effectively governed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, as we saw on the night of the Guarantee.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You lost me after Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil! Isn't it Fine Gael who are getting rid of town councils and tried to get rid of the senad

Sand · 17-01-2014 7:46pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

No need to break into the Central Bank, just common sense to know that a terraced house in Dublin 6W is not worth €550k and mortgages fifteen times your salary is not sustainable.

Yes, actually there is a need - what you're talking about is anecdotal evidence which doesn't even meet the standards of boards discussion. To make a decision of the sustainability of the overall economy you need information on the overall economy - information the civil service and central bank collect with special legal power, at great cost and under secrecy.

But you seem to consider it acceptable that the government, civil service and central bank cant figure that out? That its primarily the voters fault that the civil service and central bank *cant* figure it out?

What's even more hilarious is you expect people to accept the *current* governments pronouncements as the simple truth - that they should suspend their own disbelief - and yet simultaneously you condemn voters for not being distrustful enough of prior governments.

Like I said, some people heard a truism like "You get the government your deserve" and thought, "Oh, that's deep and profound!" and kept running with it out to the fringes of absurdity.

[EDIT - oh and by the way, it *was* sustainable. I know because as a taxpayer I'm footed with the bill to keep it sustainable. You're welcome.]

Do you want the Govt to...blah blah blah dodging the issue blah blah blah Fine Gael party political broadcast blah blah blah...economic crisis and an IMF intervention.

So you do acknowledge that you don't consider it even theoretically possible for anyone to have a valid reason for being annoyed with the current government. I asked you before if you could show one post of yours on this thread where you engaged with a posters reasons for being annoyed with the current government. You couldn't.

As you did there, you have a tendency to barge into a "Oh, where do I even start"/"I cant be bothered dealing with all this nonsense" and then launch into a completely unrelated bit of nonsense about all the achievements of Fine Gael which never actually deals with the points raised, but instead seems to imply that the benefit of FG rule outweigh the costs of its corruption and incompetence.

Ironically, the exact same rationale many FF voters you condemn employed when voting FF over the years.

tayto lover · 17-01-2014 7:50pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

OK then, here are just a few:

1. Free Clean drinking water
2. Free Bin collection and street sweeping
3. Free Housing for people on low income
4. Free Medical card
5. Free medical prescriptions
6. Free Hospital care including free heart surgery or any other operation
7. Free money for unemployed people currently €188 per week for a single person which is also the average industrial wage for people in Spain, and before you say that the cost of living in Spain is cheaper than here, not to the same extent as the disparity in wages in social welfare benefits
8. Free fuel supplements
9. Free clothing supplements
10. Free back to school allowance

????

Someone need to be re-programmed.

Frank Lee Midere · 17-01-2014 7:51pm

flutered wrote: »

naw it is not the math, it is the reason behind the referendum, the t-shoch wanted more power for the cabinet, the only thing that they can organise is another scam law to take more from the working poor and the welfare classes, while organising coups and large moxies for their benefactors.

Seriously? We have the most protected welfare classes in Europe, including pensioners - particularly PS pensions.

On the other hand the PAYE "rich" have taken a hammering.

All ceminists are funts · 17-01-2014 9:27pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Seriously? We have the most protected welfare classes in Europe, including pensioners - particularly PS pensions.

On the other hand the PAYE "rich" have taken a hammering.

You make a valid point.

After all work related costs are deducted, I reckon most people on welfare have a higher level of disposable income than people in work.

But it won't get tackled with the spineless lot currently in power or any other Irish political entity.

A weak populace elects weak politicians.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 10:07pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

OK then, here are just a few:

1. Free Clean drinking water
2. Free Bin collection and street sweeping
3. Free Housing for people on low income
4. Free Medical card
5. Free medical prescriptions
6. Free Hospital care including free heart surgery or any other operation
7. Free money for unemployed people currently €188 per week for a single person which is also the average industrial wage for people in Spain, and before you say that the cost of living in Spain is cheaper than here, not to the same extent as the disparity in wages in social welfare benefits
8. Free fuel supplements
9. Free clothing supplements
10. Free back to school allowance

????

Others have given an answer on how misguided is your assessment of this but the question I asked was related to new taxes in the form of Property Tax and USC and an older and now completely altered tax PRSI. PRSI has been around for a long time, but as it's full title, Pay Related Social Insurance suggests, it once had a different function, It was another Government con job perpetrated on the PAYE worker and at it's inception guaranteed 80% of your wages if you lost your job, decreasing on a sliding scale over two years to the flat rate of UB. It also covered dental treatment and hospital A&E plus a certain degree of optical benefit. This has been eroded over the years until today AFAIK it covers a dental cleaning once a year and an eye test.
Property tax was supposed to go to local authorities to provide services to local communities but that too has been hived off to pay for the excesses of Ahern and his buddies. USC, to my mind, has never had a clearly defined purpose .
This is all to create the illusion that income tax, for the PAYE sector in Ireland, is low.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 10:11pm

Talia Modern Football wrote: »

What has this got to do with the Seanad referendum? Government gave you the opportunity to remove 60 senators on a salary €65,621 which is more than what a TD claims in expenses. Do the math.

Everything as they were propounded as being among the reasons the referendum failed.

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 10:20pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Seriously? We have the most protected welfare classes in Europe, including pensioners - particularly PS pensions.

On the other hand the PAYE "rich" have taken a hammering.

You fail to see that we set up a welfare state for that very reason and are supposedly taxed accordingly, the PAYE sector are supposed to be the beneficiaries of the Welfare State.
Successive populist governments diluted this by rewarding the idle, the irresponsible and the criminal classes, we are now reaping the rewards of that.

View · 17-01-2014 10:40pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

The result is a country which can be effectively governed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, w

The result is highly ineffective government I'm afraid.

Everything depends on central government making decisions and, as it is swamped with minor local decisions, it invariably can't focus on major (central) decision making.

Worse, it reduces the rest of the population to "idiot level" as it deprives people of the opportunity of making local decisions for themselves.

Scofflaw · 17-01-2014 11:14pm

View wrote: »

The result is highly ineffective government I'm afraid.

Everything depends on central government making decisions and, as it is swamped with minor local decisions, it invariably can't focus on major (central) decision making.

Worse, it reduces the rest of the population to "idiot level" as it deprives people of the opportunity of making local decisions for themselves.

Sure - "effectively" as in "in effect" or "to all intents", rather than "to good effect" or "well".

cordially,
Scofflaw

bmaxi · 17-01-2014 11:33pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil centralise power into their own hands when in government. Fianna Fáil tend to attack other power centres at the local level - abolishing domestic rates (and thus damaging the public-council relationship), abolishing the dual mandate (and thus damaging the local power of backbenchers) - while Fine Gael tend to attack other national power structures - aiming for power over the judges' pay, quasi-judicial powers for the Dáil (or rather the government), abolition of the Seanad.

The other Ministers were made less effective by FF's 'decentralisation' programme, which farmed out bits of every department bar the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance to umpteen small towns.

The result is a country which can be effectively governed by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, as we saw on the night of the Guarantee.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Add to that FF's attempt at foisting local authority candidates, hand picked by head office, on local cumainn. Thankfully the good people of Wexford stymied that little exercise.

View · 17-01-2014 11:39pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - "effectively" as in "in effect" or "to all intents", rather than "to good effect" or "well".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Okay, I'll conceed the point.

The idea of someone implying our extremely centralised governmental system was "effectively governed" (as in "well governed") just made my blood boil.

IMO, the system is almost guaranteed to produce catastrophes as it is so centralised and swamped with local issues, it is impossible for anyone to even hope it could "see the wood for the trees".

LordSutch · 18-01-2014 12:46am

Banjo String wrote: »

Because they're lying hypocritical bastards.

/thread

You got 66 thanks for that, which begs the question who should be in power?

Why the anger against current government?

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