Sleep walking in to a European super state

Kermit.de.frog · 26-08-2014 6:13am #1

So you may not have noticed yet but during the economic crisis the EU happily took on big new powers. The ECB will now regulate our banks (not a bad thing some will say) and Euro bonds are on the way. That means we can not borrow our own money. An independent state should surely be borrowing on it's own terms?

All pretence of independence is surely in shreds?

I think one morning in the not too distant future Irish people will wake up and it will suddenly dawn on them - the capital is Brussels not Dublin. It's a creeping certainty.

I don't recall voting for this.

Lapin · 26-08-2014 6:24am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So you may not have noticed yet but during the economic crisis the EU happily took on big new powers. The ECB will now regulate our banks (not a bad thing some will say) and Euro bonds are on the way. That means we can not borrow our own money. An independent state should surely be borrowing on it's own terms?

All pretence of independence is surely in shreds?

I think one morning in the not too distant future Irish people will wake up and it will suddenly dawn on them - the capital is Brussels not Dublin. It's a creeping certainty.

I don't recall voting for this.

Nice? Lisbon?

We didn't sleepwalk into this at all.

We voted against it. And were then bullied into voting for it - Twice.

A lot of it had something to do with the Yes campaigns telling the gullable that all their sons would be fighting in Iraq and all their daughters would be having abortions every week if they voted no.

26-08-2014 6:30am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That means we can not borrow our own money.

When I borrow money it tends not to be my own.

Kermit.de.frog · 26-08-2014 6:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

When I borrow money it tends not to be my own.

I mean this country can not borrow. I phrased it wrong.

Banjo String · 26-08-2014 7:04am

Does this mean I will soon be able to buy 6 x bottles of beer at German Lidl prices (2.29) instead of Lidl Ireland price, 7.29?

The VFI won't be long putting an end to a superstate then.

anncoates · 26-08-2014 7:27am

Next hear all true Gaels will be forced to adopt Morris Dancing and soccer.

renegademaster · 26-08-2014 7:43am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So you may not have noticed yet but during the economic crisis the EU happily took on big new powers. The ECB will now regulate our banks (not a bad thing some will say) and Euro bonds are on the way. That means we can not borrow our own money. An independent state should surely be borrowing on it's own terms?

All pretence of independence is surely in shreds?

I think one morning in the not too distant future Irish people will wake up and it will suddenly dawn on them - the capital is Brussels not Dublin. It's a creeping certainty.

I don't recall voting for this.

some of us have been waiting years for this to happen, dont hold your breath op, it will literally take the sound of jack boots outside their doors for Irish majority to wake up and by then it's too late

fedor.2. · 26-08-2014 8:07am

Good, I like to consider myself more European than irish anyway

Tail Docker · 26-08-2014 8:12am

fedor.2. wrote: »

Good, I like to consider myself more European than irish anyway

You fire ahead with that. I'll hang back here, if it goes tits up at least you'll have somewhere to come back to.

fedor.2. · 26-08-2014 8:14am

Tail Docker wrote: »

You fire ahead with that. I'll hang back here, if it goes tits up at least you'll have somewhere to come back to.

There would be nothing but a bog to come back to if it wasn't for funding from Europe

Badly Drunk Boy · 26-08-2014 8:16am

fedor.2. wrote: »

Good, I like to consider myself more European than irish anyway

Spoken like a true rebel Corkonian...

danniemcq · 26-08-2014 8:20am

MOD

Moved from After Hours. Please read the charter before posting if you followed the redirect.

Tail Docker · 26-08-2014 8:20am

fedor.2. wrote: »

There would be nothing but a bog to come back to if it wasn't for funding from Europe

Maybe I like bog..also this got moved, so I'm out. Politics doesn't like my brand of intellectual discourse.

DeadHand · 26-08-2014 8:30am

Don't worry you'll have a chance to vote against this in a referendum...

... Which will be rerun until our European overlords get the right answer. And the EU has the blatant hypocrisy to condemn the Crimean referendum as rigged. What makes them any better?

The EU will eventually bring about the death of European culture as we know it through it's ruinous policies of untramelled immigration and adherence to the failed dogma of multi-culturalism. The self loating, culturally defeatist attitudes that now sees thousands of born Europeans carving their murderous "Islamic State" in the deserts of Iraq and Syria.

I doubt they'll leave their idealology there when they return home.

Oafley Jones · 26-08-2014 8:42am

I love how these sort of threads are pitched on after hours because the OP knows they won't stand up to the scrutiny of one of the Politics forums. Also, people talking about being bullied into changing votes... What happened? What terrible pressure did you feel that made you vote the other way.

oscarBravo · 26-08-2014 9:24am

Lapin wrote: »

We voted against it. And were then bullied into voting for it - Twice.

I've never been bullied into voting for or against anything. If you were a victim of intimidation, you should probably report it to the Gardaí.

simplybam · 26-08-2014 9:31am

DeadHand wrote: »

Don't worry you'll have a chance to vote against this in a referendum...

... Which will be rerun until our European overlords get the right answer. And the EU has the blatant hypocrisy to condemn the Crimean referendum as rigged. What makes them any better?

The EU will eventually bring about the death of European culture as we know it through it's ruinous policies of untramelled immigration and adherence to the failed dogma of multi-culturalism. The self loating, culturally defeatist attitudes that now sees thousands of born Europeans carving their murderous "Islamic State" in the deserts of Iraq and Syria.

I doubt they'll leave their idealology there when they return home.

Just as well the Irish don't ever emigrate elsewhere. Couldn't stand the thought of them bringing their culture to another country.

DeadHand · 26-08-2014 9:59am

Don't worry you'll have a chance to vote against this in a referendum...

... Which will be rerun until our European overlords get the right answer. And the EU has the blatant hypocrisy to condemn the Crimean referendum as rigged. What makes them any better?

The EU will eventually bring about the death of European culture as we know it through it's ruinous policies of untramelled immigration and adherence to the failed dogma of multi-culturalism. The self loating, culturally defeatist attitudes that now sees thousands of born Europeans carving their murderous "Islamic State" in the deserts of Iraq and Syria.

I doubt they'll leave their idealology there when they return home.

simplybam · 26-08-2014 10:03am

Wow, I'm a genius - I quoted your post before you posted it

satguy · 26-08-2014 10:07am

Our European overlords may well do a better job than the rotten shower of wasters we have now.
How the hell are we paying for water when it rains here every bloody day, and that's just the tip of the mismanaged botch job our present overlords have made of the place.

We welcome you O "European Overlords"

hmmm · 26-08-2014 10:11am

satguy wrote: »

How the hell are we paying for water when it rains here every bloody day, and that's just the tip of the mismanaged botch job our present overlords have made of the place.

Rainwater is free, collect as much as you want. Treated water has to be paid for.

You do realise repeating the words "European overlords" weakens any argument you might have rather than strengthening it, right?

Ireland has benefitted massively from being part of a larger group of countries - we get to hide behind Germany, France & the UK when they are negotiating with the Chinas and the USAs of this world. We can leave any time we want and go back to being the misogynistic, decrepit agricultural country of the 50s run by the Church and extreme nationalists.

Permabear · 26-08-2014 12:29pm

This post has been deleted.

j80ezgvc3p92xu · 26-08-2014 2:07pm

EUSSR under domination of the Germans based on Socialist nanny-state principles. European nations are being dragged into this mire kicking and screaming. The rise of the Russian bear will only speed up the process.

Permabear · 26-08-2014 2:37pm

This post has been deleted.

meglome · 26-08-2014 5:13pm

Tail Docker wrote: »

Maybe I like bog..also this got moved, so I'm out. Politics doesn't like my brand of intellectual discourse.

You'll find if you post facts which you can show supporting evidence for you'll have no issue around there parts. Seems fair. If you want to rabble rouse as 'the man' is out to get you then it will go horribly wrong.

The Lisbon treaty provides for way to leave the EU which didn't exist before. If we vote for it we can leave, whenever we like. Though why someone would be stupid enough to hark back to the insular, protectionist catholic mess we used to have is beyond me.

Tail Docker · 26-08-2014 6:08pm

meglome wrote: »

You'll find if you post facts which you can show supporting evidence for you'll have no issue around there parts. Seems fair. If you want to rabble rouse as 'the man' is out to get you then it will go horribly wrong.

.

I only said I liked Bog. I tried finding a supporting link but it went badly. Seems not everywhere calls a bog a bog.

The Corinthian · 05-09-2014 2:55pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

All pretence of independence is surely in shreds?

If I hop on a train, I can be in Vaduz by teatime. Vaduz is, as you no doubt don't know, the capital of sovereign nation of Lichtenstein. Sovereign, except for using the Swiss Franc, and telecoms infrastructure, Austrian trains and who's military safety is guaranteed by Switzerland (as they don't have any army). But they're 'sovereign'. Sort of.

Naturally, Ireland is nothing like this. We had an independent currency for a whole 20 years - from 1979 to 1999; presumably because we couldn't find any other currency who would let us link ours to theirs.

We have serious diplomatic clout too - sending our top politicians to the US on St Patrick's day to pay homage to the country that has been kind enough to employ half of Ireland is a sure sign of this. And where our military may lack the ability to physically protect us, our neutrality will step in and act as the ultimate deterrent. Just ask Belgium.

hmmm wrote: »

You do realise repeating the words "European overlords" weakens any argument you might have rather than strengthening it, right?

What I'm wondering what are the Irish, if not European? I understand there's a propensity to copy the British where it comes to their use of the term 'European', but does that mean we're British instead?

Labarbapostiza · 09-09-2014 5:08am

DeadHand wrote: »

The EU will eventually bring about the death of European culture as we know it through it's ruinous policies of untramelled immigration and adherence to the failed dogma of multi-culturalism.

You know I knew a German who used say just that about Ireland, how Ireland should never have been let join the European Union. Irish people are as European as Ukrainians.

Peregrinus · 09-09-2014 5:36am

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

You know I knew a German who used say just that about Ireland, how Ireland should never have been let join the European Union. Irish people are as European as Ukrainians.

In other words, completely European in every sense of the word?

Iwasfrozen · 11-09-2014 2:12pm

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

You know I knew a German who used say just that about Ireland, how Ireland should never have been let join the European Union. Irish people are as European as Ukrainians.

"European as Ukrainians" lol I love it, someone needs some lessons in geography.

karma_ · 12-09-2014 4:50pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"European as Ukrainians" lol I love it, someone needs some lessons in geography.

Ukraine is in Europe. Lesson over?

Labarbapostiza · 12-09-2014 9:17pm

karma_ wrote: »

Ukraine is in Europe. Lesson over?

Where does Asia begin?

Peregrinus · 15-09-2014 2:35am

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

Where does Asia begin?

At the Urals. Did they not cover this in your primary school?

Labarbapostiza · 15-09-2014 5:51pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

At the Urals. Did they not cover this in your primary school?

Ah the Irish national school education; nothing quite like it in the world.

Asia, in reality, does not start at any particular dividing line. As you travel from the west to the east, the Asian influence slowly grows until you can definitely say you're in Asia. Italy doesn't have any noticeable Asian influence, but Romania does. As you start at the Polish border, the Ukrainians speak Polish, slowly as you cross the Ukraine to the east, the Polish morphs into Russian. The word Ukraine means the crossing.

Russia is a very interesting instance, in that it's a huge land mass, and its' cities of power, wealth and government are in the far west. When we think of Russians we think of the western looking people from St. Petersburg, or Moscow. But a large portion of the Russian population are what a Russian friend of mine termed "those Chinese looking people". The slants in Lenin's eyes were altered for all official images.

Are Irish people European? Are the Irish people a unified people in the first place. Crossing one side of a city to another, or going beyond any of the pales, you might as well be in another country.

KomradeBishop · 15-09-2014 10:02pm

Yanis Varoufakis has done some good articles on this lately - a particularly good one is this:
yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/09/07/can-europe-escape-its-crisis-without-turning-into-an-iron-cage/

It's long, but it makes a good point that as power is centralized in Europe, democracy is at risk of being marginalized/abandoned, because the political framework of Europe is setup so that the EU entities gaining greater and greater power over our countries/economies, are not open to the same kind accountability as our own governments - he puts it well here:

To put it slightly differently, small sovereign nations, like Iceland, have choices to make within the broader constraints created for them by nature and by the rest of humanity. However limited these choices, Iceland’s body politic retains absolute authority to hold their elected officials accountable for the decisions they have reached within the nation’s exogenous constraints and to strike down every piece of legislation that it has decided upon in the past. In sharp contrast, the Eurozone’s finance ministers often return from Brussels, or wherever it is that the Eurogroup and Ecofin has just met, and decry the decisions that they have just signed up to, using the standard excuse that “it was the best we could negotiate” or that “I was outvoted at Council”

Power is effectively being transferred from our own governments (who we can hold directly accountable), and is being granted to EU institutions which ultimately have far less direct accountability to EU citizens - it's nothing like one big united nation - who can instead, be influenced much more easily by the massive lobby groups in and around Brussels, than by EU citizens.

So yes, if we're not careful of the direction we let our own country and the EU take, we could effectively end up being largely disenfranchised, with a mostly unaccountable EU elite (with much greater ties to business lobby groups than citizens), being able to coerce member nations into adopting policies they desire.

The Corinthian · 16-09-2014 10:08am

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Power is effectively being transferred from our own governments (who we can hold directly accountable), and is being granted to EU institutions which ultimately have far less direct accountability to EU citizens - it's nothing like one big united nation - who can instead, be influenced much more easily by the massive lobby groups in and around Brussels, than by EU citizens.

Well, that's really the fault of the national governments because they don't want to be bypassed. Make things more democratically accountable and essentially you're bypassing the national governments in favour of the democratically elected representatives who answer to their voters, and not them - national governments appoint commissioners, not MEPs, after all.

As to lobby groups, I'm afraid that's across the board now, or had you not noticed a lot of laws, in recent years, that have been passed by the Dail that had little or no electoral support and instead were pushed by other interested parties?

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 10:36am

The difference between national/EU lobby groups, is that at a national level, we can hold our government to account for favouring lobby groups - when we hand power over to EU institutions which can't be held accountable to the same level, democratically, then we (as citizens) lose a lot of the power for doing anything about that, and the lobby groups can gain and hold a lot more power.

So, we want the people who govern us, to represent and be accountable to the people, not to remove the populations ability to hold them to account, in a way that gives lobby groups greater representation.

The Corinthian · 16-09-2014 10:50am

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The difference between national/EU lobby groups, is that at a national level, we can hold our government to account for favouring lobby groups - when we hand power over to EU institutions which can't be held accountable to the same level, democratically, then we (as citizens) lose a lot of the power for doing anything about that, and the lobby groups can gain and hold a lot more power.

That's not a difference between the lobby groups, that's a difference between the chains of accountability.

NAT: Elected National Parliament-> Lobby Groups
EU1: Elected National Parliament-> Commission -> Lobby Groups

As you can see the latter is further removed from democratic oversight. If you want to have democratic accountability, you would need to:

EU2: Elected European Parliament -> Lobby Groups

But you won't see that because ironically national sovereignty is more important than democracy; and that's not down to the lobby groups or even the EU, but the national governments in the EU.

You want democracy in the EU, that's the price. Otherwise you can't have your cake and eat it.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 12:16pm

Yes, my focus was on democratic accountability, rather than presenting national/EU lobby groups as being different.

On sovereignty though: National governments are forfeiting sovereignty over many areas of policymaking, to Europe, so both sovereignty and democracy are being sacrificed to grant more power, to a European political system which has far less democratic accountability, and has no legitimate claim to being a sovereign body.

Yanis puts it well, in the article:

An ‘alliance of states’ can, of course, come to mutually beneficial arrangements against a common aggressor (e.g. in the context of a defensive military alliance), or in agreeing to common industry standards, or even effect a free trade zone. But, such an alliance of sovereign states can never legitimately create an overlord with the right to strike down the states’ sovereignty, since there is no collective, alliance-wide sovereignty from which to draw the necessary political authority to do so. This is why the difference between a federation and an ‘alliance of states’ matters hugely. For while a federation replaces the sovereignty forfeited at the national or state level with a new-fangled sovereignty at the unitary, federal level, centralising power within an ‘alliance of states’ is, by definition, illegitimate, and lacks any sovereign body politic that can anoint it.
...
...A parliament is sovereign, even if it is not particularly powerful, when it can dismiss the executive for having failed to fulfil the tasks assigned to it within the constraints of whatever power that the executive, and the Parliament, possess. Nothing like this exists today in the Eurozone. While members of the European Council are elected officials answerable theoretically to national parliaments, the Council itself is not answerable to any Parliament; indeed, to no body politic whatsoever.
...

As the economic situation in Europe drags on, we are losing both sovereignty and democracy, and right now it looks impossible to reform Europe, to become either a sovereign entity itself, or to become more democratic.
Instead, as Yanis argues, we are risking entering into a form of despotism, where centralized EU institutions and the lobby groups that influence them, will have greater and greater power over European nations, and European citizens will have very little power, when compared to a fully sovereign country.

oscarBravo · 16-09-2014 12:30pm

But, such an alliance of sovereign states can never legitimately create an overlord with the right to strike down the states’ sovereignty...

No such "overlord" has been created or proposed. Sovereignty has never been struck down, but only ceded voluntarily by democratically-elected governments (and, in many cases, by the direct will of the people).

The Corinthian · 16-09-2014 12:38pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Instead, as Yanis argues, we are risking entering into a form of despotism, where centralized EU institutions and the lobby groups that influence them, will have greater and greater power over European nations, and European citizens will have very little power, when compared to a fully sovereign country.

Indeed, but the reason for this is not the EU or the lobby groups, but our governments that are supposedly accountable to us. Do you accept this?

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 1:09pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

No such "overlord" has been created or proposed. Sovereignty has never been struck down, but only ceded voluntarily by democratically-elected governments (and, in many cases, by the direct will of the people).

Ya but, if you read the full article, that is potentially the direction where Europe is headed, as countries effectively lose control over their budgeting, with the possible creation of an EU 'overlord' which may have the power to outright reject individual countries budgets:
yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/09/07/can-europe-escape-its-crisis-without-turning-into-an-iron-cage/

That people vote for a system that can exercises far-less-accountable power, absent a legitimate sovereign to provide democratic accountability, doesn't make it right - that is not the direction we should be heading in, and people should be better informed of how this is eroding sovereignty/democracy, so that they do not vote in favour of it.

Yanis' point, in the introduction, is that the sovereign Europe that people think we are edging towards, may not where we are actually headed:

In a previous article I argued that Federation was never truly the ‘logical’ conclusion of the Eurozone’s formation. There were, of course, many, including President Mitterrand and Chancellor Kohl, who had surreptitiously hoped that the euro’s inevitable crisis, at some point, would force our politicians to concede to the creation of a federal constitution and a federal government to be elected on the one-person-one-vote principle. Alas, they were badly mistaken: a democratic United States of Europe was, and remains, inimical to the European Union’s DNA.

At the moment, it does not look likely that Europe can be reformed in a way that heads on that course either - it may instead become a Europe, where a centralized elite that is greatly influenced by lobby groups, and who the European people have little influence over, gradually gains power - to become a form of despotism.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 1:15pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed, but the reason for this is not the EU or the lobby groups, but our governments that are supposedly accountable to us. Do you accept this?

I don't fully, no - because a key part of the way that Europe breeds a lack of accountability, is that it is functioning as an 'alliance of states' rather than as a federation, as Yanis describes here:

To put it slightly differently, small sovereign nations, like Iceland, have choices to make within the broader constraints created for them by nature and by the rest of humanity. However limited these choices, Iceland’s body politic retains absolute authority to hold their elected officials accountable for the decisions they have reached within the nation’s exogenous constraints and to strike down every piece of legislation that it has decided upon in the past. In sharp contrast, the Eurozone’s finance ministers often return from Brussels, or wherever it is that the Eurogroup and Ecofin has just met, and decry the decisions that they have just signed up to, using the standard excuse that “it was the best we could negotiate” or that “I was outvoted at Council”

The reason it is like this is due to the political structure of Europe.

The Corinthian · 16-09-2014 1:24pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

The reason it is like this is due to the political structure of Europe.

Yet this all returns to a political structure that has been imposed by the national governments on the EU. It all returns to that I'm afraid; you seem to be trying to absolve the national governments of blame for having created, and then maintained, this undemocratic political structure.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 3:26pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yet this all returns to a political structure that has been imposed by the national governments on the EU. It all returns to that I'm afraid; you seem to be trying to absolve the national governments of blame for having created, and then maintained, this undemocratic political structure.

I'm not assigning blame. I'm pointing out the problem with this political structure and where it leads us from here.

The Corinthian · 16-09-2014 3:53pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I'm not assigning blame. I'm pointing out the problem with this political structure and where it leads us from here.

Not much use if you don't bother to analyze where that problem stems from, TBH.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 4:31pm

Focusing on trying to assign blame for how we got here, is moralizing not analyzing - it does nothing to help analyze the problem with Europe's political structure, or what to do about that - it distracts from it.

Labarbapostiza · 16-09-2014 5:11pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Instead, as Yanis argues, we are risking entering into a form of despotism, where centralized EU institutions and the lobby groups that influence them, will have greater and greater power over European nations, and European citizens will have very little power, when compared to a fully sovereign country.

So this European despotism is bad as opposed to what...Irish despotism?

In the Irish system only a very tiny minority of people have any influence. After that it's the powerful client groups. If you're not a member of one of those client groups, which the majority are not, then you have no influence and no power.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 6:32pm

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

So this European despotism is bad as opposed to what...Irish despotism?

In the Irish system only a very tiny minority of people have any influence. After that it's the powerful client groups. If you're not a member of one of those client groups, which the majority are not, then you have no influence and no power.

Ya, a European despotism which can not be held democratically accountable to the same degree as a national government, is far worse.

Labarbapostiza · 16-09-2014 7:44pm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Focusing on trying to assign blame for how we got here, is moralizing not analyzing - it does nothing to help analyze the problem with Europe's political structure, or what to do about that - it distracts from it.

The core problem, in getting these political structures right, or wrong, is the nature of the European and Irish political class. And this includes everyone who has a input, from journalists to academics. There isn't much depth to their knowledge or thinking, and they largely live by simple heuristics, which they believe have served them well.

Purely by a fluke of geography and history, the countries of Europe have inescapable relationships. The European project in the post-war decades, when the memory of the war was still very fresh, was to codify and regulate these relationships for the maximum benefit of all. Previous attempts had been with imperial intentions; where one state would dominate by being the seat of the empire. This approach had worked for the British, where England was the seat of imperial power in the union (the UK), over Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The "communist" Russians over the Soviet republics. Obviously this doesn't work in the long term, as the seat of empire will bleed the subordinate states dry, and the union will eventually crumble into dust.

Had the relationships of the British union been non-imperial, and more like the post-war European consensus, the Irish would still be British, and the Scottish wouldn't be having a referendum to leave the union.

The objective of the European project is clear.....but we have a problem.

To illustrate the problem, take any Irish university, and there are two kinds of professors. One, someone who was a talented undergrad, who worked their way through their qualifications, and into teaching, and the university gave them a job, because they do need people like this. And then there is the second kind, the one who is told when they're a teenager they're going to be a university professor, and there won't be a problem because they're uncle, the bishop, is on the board of the university, and as the university believes they need these people; because what would they be without class.

Europe is like this too. The result being our ruling elites are mostly cretins. The worse kind of cretins; as they're insiders, they believe they have insider knowledge. But what use is knowledge to a cretin.

Between 1922 and 1977, Ireland was in a monetary union with England. It didn't work very well for us. The English acted imperially. They wouldn't even consult the Irish government on monetary policy, they would just act. When Ireland grew closer to Europe, we could leave the forced marriage of the British union. And the Irish economy began to rapidly improve. With the Euro, the ECB, gave us an incredibly long leash, one which the Irish cretins used to hang themselves. All the other countries who got into trouble had the same freedom, which they abused like the thick paddies, but all of these countries would have been far poorer without the EU, or if a central imperial seat had regulated their banking systems as imperial seats historically do.

It's not Germany's fault Angela Merkle isn't a clown. The problem really is the clowns, you know.

KomradeBishop · 16-09-2014 8:03pm

I don't know why you're quoting me there, as that doesn't reply to my post in any way.

Sleep walking in to a European super state

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