Are fares going up on Dec 1?

n97 mini · 28-10-2014 10:59am #1

There was a link on the Irish Rail website a few moments ago, gone now, to revised fares from Dec 1 2014?

branners69 · 28-10-2014 11:09am

Looks like it!

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/revisedfares2015

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Determination_order_9_for_Leap_cash_and_prepaid_fare_changes_by_Iarnrod_Eireann_October_2014.pdf

Actually it looks like my bus fare is dropping from €2.15 to €2.05, result!

L1011 · 28-10-2014 11:15am

The Leap fares appear to be going up by a fixed % with no rounding, that is likely to drive some people with OCDs about round numbers (I know a fair few!) up the wall

The caps aren't changing for now anyway, so this is likely to result in more people who don't use the train 5+ days a week moving to Leap.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 11:59am

NTA Fare Determination Reports for 2015 are filed here:

CIE Group Monthly/Annual Tickets

LUAS Monthly/Annual Tickets

Dublin Bus Cash, LEAP and Prepaid Fares

Bus Eireann Cash, LEAP and Prepaid Fares

Irish Rail Cash, LEAP and Prepaid Fares

LUAS Cash, LEAP and Prepaid Fares

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 12:36pm

Main changes to Dublin Bus:

Cash fares
- Fares increase by 8% approximately
- Over 13 stages, Outer Suburban 1 and Outer Suburban 2 merged into one fare
- Xpresso one zone and two zones merged into one fare

LEAP Fares:
- Differential between LEAP and cash fares further widened as cash fares increase by much higher percentage
- 4-7 stages and 8-13 stages merged into one fare
- Over 13 stages, Outer Suburban 1 and Outer Suburban 2 merged into one fare
- Xpresso one zone and two zones merged into one fare
- Capping levels to remain the same but will now all outer suburban fares and Xpresso fares will contribute to the cap
- Second journey discount to be offered where 2nd journey starts within 90 minutes of the first (Discount is €1 for adults/students and €0.70 for children)

Travel 90 Ticket to be withdrawn in Q1 2015

Revised fares:

ADULT FARES:
1-3 Stages €1.95 Cash / €1.50 LEAP
4-7 Stages €2.55 Cash / €2.05 LEAP
8-13 Stages €2.80 Cash / €2.05 LEAP
Over 13 Stages €3.30 Cash / €2.60 LEAP
Xpresso €3.60 Cash / €2.85 LEAP
City Centre €0.75 Cash / €0.60 LEAP
Nitelink €6.50 Cash / €5.00 LEAP

CHILD FARES:
Schoolchild €0.95 Cash / €0.75 LEAP
1-7 Stages €1.15 Cash / €0.90 LEAP
Over 7 Stages €1.40 Cash / €1.10 LEAP
Xpresso €1.50 Cash / €1.20 LEAP
City Centre €0.75 Cash / €0.60 LEAP

SparkySpitfire · 28-10-2014 12:59pm

Yep...saw it on the journal this morning.

Gives me a mind to save up for driving lessons :mad:

n97 mini · 28-10-2014 1:06pm

lxflyer wrote: »

- Second journey discount to be offered where 2nd journey starts within 90 minutes of the first (Discount is €1 for adults/students and €0.70 for children)

Travel 90 Ticket to be withdrawn in Q1 2015

Balls. Someone needing 2 x 13+stage journeys a day will go from €5.50 to €6.90. (I occasionally need to do this)

bg07 · 28-10-2014 1:15pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Balls. Someone needing 2 x 13+stage journeys a day will go from €5.50 to €6.90. (I occasionally need to do this)

You have the option of the 5 day rambler for €5.90 a day or the 30 day one for €4.90 a day. It can be used on non consecutive days so it can be good value for occasional users too

_Kaiser_ · 28-10-2014 1:18pm

Yea this makes sense - sure we're in "Recovery" now so let's hike the fares and push more people into their cars! As if falling passenger numbers wasn't enough of a problem already.

Can only assume this is part of a strategy to sell the whole thing off at this stage.

coylemj · 28-10-2014 1:18pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Balls. Someone needing 2 x 13+stage journeys a day will go from €5.50 to €6.90. (I occasionally need to do this)

I assume you mean that you're doing 2 x 13+ stages out and the same back on a particular day, hence two separate validations on the T90.

A five day rambler ticket will buy you 5 non-consecutive days, it costs €27.50 so will cost you €5.50 per day, exactly what you're paying using the T90 card now.

It's even cheaper if you can afford to lash out on the 30 day ticket which costs €137.50 so works out at €4.58 per day.

L1011 · 28-10-2014 1:23pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As if falling passenger numbers wasn't enough of a problem already.

I think they've stopped falling now... though whether that'll continue I don't know.

Every further rise puts off irregular users even if the caps staying static reduces or eliminates the impact on more frequent users.

The hike in the taxsaver fares plus the minor reduction in the overall tax rate means I'm not sure its worth my while now, as I generally have to drive anywhere from one to all five days a week (moving equipment or doing site visits) and the caps are more effective.

munchkin_utd · 28-10-2014 1:26pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Balls. Someone needing 2 x 13+stage journeys a day will go from €5.50 to €6.90. (I occasionally need to do this)

?????
the new fare as stated above is :
"Over 13 Stages €3.30 Cash / €2.60 LEAP "

So with leap only €5.20, or €6.60 in cash, but either way none of the options is €6.90

also, if you continue paying in cash then its your own fault for paying more.
Actually, if the difference isnt enough to encourage folks to use leap, then really the cash price increase should be properly drastic.

Pensioners (along with over half the adult population) have free travel anyhow, so only working people and tourists are paying adult fares - so more punative cash fares wont harm the "vulnerable", lest anyone scream "has anyone thought of the pensioners" (who could afford to pay a couple of cents into the kitty anyhow- but thats a different debate).

coylemj · 28-10-2014 1:39pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

?????
the new fare as stated above is :
"Over 13 Stages €3.30 Cash / €2.60 LEAP "

So with leap only €5.20, or €6.60 in cash, but either way none of the options is €6.90

I'm pretty sure that he meant that on the odd day he had to do two bus trips (both 13+ stages) to a destination and the same on the return leg. That would use two journeys on a T90 ticket so would cost €5.50 for the round trip.

He then calculated that he would have to fall back on the daily cap (€6.90) when the T90 ticket is withdrawn. Some of us have pointed out that there are alternatives which should avoid this.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 1:41pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

?????
the new fare as stated above is :
"Over 13 Stages €3.30 Cash / €2.60 LEAP "

So with leap only €5.20, or €6.60 in cash, but either way none of the options is €6.90

also, if you continue paying in cash then its your own fault for paying more.
Actually, if the difference isnt enough to encourage folks to use leap, then really the cash price increase should be properly drastic.

Pensioners (along with over half the adult population) have free travel anyhow, so only working people and tourists are paying adult fares - so more punative cash fares wont harm the "vulnerable", lest anyone scream "has anyone thought of the pensioners" (who could afford to pay a couple of cents into the kitty anyhow- but thats a different debate).

n97 means taking 2 x over 13 stage journeys in one direction one after the other, and two back, one after the other.

Currently that would use two T90 journeys, costing €5.50.

Now, using LEAP that will cost €2.60 + €1.60 = €4.20 in each direction, which taken twice will mean that it is capped at €6.90.

As others point out that's where having the Dublin Bus rambler ticket loaded on the LEAP card comes in useful - it will work out at €5.90 for the 5 day ticket and €4.92 for the 30 day ticket, with the days being non-consecutive.

coylemj · 28-10-2014 1:46pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Now, that will cost €2.60 + €1.60 = €4.20 in each direction, which taken twice will mean that it is capped at €6.90.

How does the second (13+ stages) trip cost €1.60? Poster will be getting a bus from A to B (13+ stages) and pay €2.60 on Leap, then B to C (13+ stages) which will cost the same - no?

TheBandicoot · 28-10-2014 1:48pm

Why is the city centre fare cheaper in cash than on Leap?

LeinsterDub · 28-10-2014 1:49pm

Just a few more 'merges' and we can have a flat fair.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 1:49pm

coylemj wrote: »

I assume you mean that you're doing 2 x 13+ stages out and the same back on a particular day, hence two separate validations on the T90.

A five day rambler ticket will buy you 5 non-consecutive days, it costs €27.50 so will cost you €5.50 per day, exactly what you're paying using the T90 card now.

It's even cheaper if you can afford to lash out on the 30 day ticket which costs €137.50 so works out at €4.58 per day.

Five day rambler is going up to €29.50 and the 30 day product to €147.50.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 1:50pm

coylemj wrote: »

How does the second (13+ stages) trip cost €1.60? Poster will be getting a bus from A to B (13+ stages) and pay €2.60 on Leap, then B to C (13+ stages) which will cost the same - no?

There will be a discount of €1 applied to the second fare.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 1:51pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Why is the city centre fare cheaper in cash than on Leap?

Apologies - I transposed them!

Fixed the earlier post.

coylemj · 28-10-2014 1:57pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There will be a discount of €1 applied to the second fare.

I see that now in your earlier list of changes - a discount of €1 when you validate within an hour of an earlier journey.

As outlined above The Authority is introducing a second journey discount on Leap card fares on 2nd November on Dublin Bus services. This will allow the customer to get the discounts (€1.00 adult, €1.00 student, €0.70 child) on a second journey that has been commenced within 90 minutes of the start of the first journey. It is planned to introduce this feature across all operators in 2015. Currently the Travel 90 tickets offer a similar type feature where a passenger may use the ticket for 90 minutes to allow them take a second bus journey. With the introduction of the second journey discount this will give a discount of up to €1.00 on the second journey and therefore the travel 90 10 journey tickets will be withdrawn in the first quarter of 2015.

I also see that the adult T90 ticket will have a new price before it's withdrawn - €29.50 but I've just ordered a few at the old price of €27.50.

dquinnan · 28-10-2014 2:00pm

Balls. Thought with FG/LAB trying to buy an election that they might have at least let us have one year with no fare increases. Pricks probably don't think much of folk who have to use PT though.

Would have been nice if they left Leap fares alone even.

mickydoomsux · 28-10-2014 2:09pm

dquinnan wrote: »

Balls. Thought with FG/LAB trying to buy an election that they might have at least let us have one year with no fare increases. Pricks probably don't think much of folk who have to use PT though.

Would have been nice if they left Leap fares alone even.

Free Travel is still free and that's all that matters to politicians.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 2:10pm

dquinnan wrote: »

Balls. Thought with FG/LAB trying to buy an election that they might have at least let us have one year with no fare increases. Pricks probably don't think much of folk who have to use PT though.

Would have been nice if they left Leap fares alone even.

A large number of people who pay €2.15 on Dublin Bus (LEAP fare for 8-13 stages) are getting a €0.10 discount from these changes (new fare is €2.05). There are still significant numbers of people paying cash on the bus who could get a much cheaper fare by using LEAP.

The discount for using LEAP has now grown to 20% or more compared with cash fares.

Alun · 28-10-2014 2:13pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Just a few more 'merges' and we can have a flat fair.

Taking my personal example from another thread, it will now cost me exactly the same to go to the centre of Bray from my house (in Bray, 4 'stages') as it would to the centre of Dublin.

efb · 28-10-2014 2:16pm

coylemj wrote: »

How does the second (13+ stages) trip cost €1.60? Poster will be getting a bus from A to B (13+ stages) and pay €2.60 on Leap, then B to C (13+ stages) which will cost the same - no?

€1 discount when 2 consecutive journeys started within 90 mins - see above

Monife · 28-10-2014 2:22pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Five day rambler is going up to €29.50 and the 30 day product to €147.50.

This is a ridiculous increase and completely disproportionate to the single journey increases! It's looking either the same or cheaper for me to drive to work now.

hdowney · 28-10-2014 2:36pm

ballbags to them anyway. off to find out how much my fair will be increasing.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 3:14pm

coylemj wrote: »

I see that now in your earlier list of changes - a discount of €1 when you validate within an hour of an earlier journey.

As outlined above The Authority is introducing a second journey discount on Leap card fares on 2nd November on Dublin Bus services. This will allow the customer to get the discounts (€1.00 adult, €1.00 student, €0.70 child) on a second journey that has been commenced within 90 minutes of the start of the first journey. It is planned to introduce this feature across all operators in 2015. Currently the Travel 90 tickets offer a similar type feature where a passenger may use the ticket for 90 minutes to allow them take a second bus journey. With the introduction of the second journey discount this will give a discount of up to €1.00 on the second journey and therefore the travel 90 10 journey tickets will be withdrawn in the first quarter of 2015.

I also see that the adult T90 ticket will have a new price before it's withdrawn - €29.50 but I've just ordered a few at the old price of €27.50.

The time limit within which the second journey has to start for the discount to apply is actually 90 minutes not an hour.

The NTA documents confirm that the second trip discount will extended to all modes in early 2015, which should mean that single multi-mode trips will at last be discounted in some form.

cgcsb · 28-10-2014 3:15pm

The 'simplification of fares' mentioned in RTÉ news is just a merging of Dublin Bus fares.

Still no sign of a simple zone based multi operator system with no punishment for changing bus/mode.

I note the NTA refer vaguely to some future 'transfer rebate' which will allow customers a discount when taking a 'second journey' within 90 minutes of the first. Of course they aren't two seperate 'journeys' they are merely 2 legs of the same journey, and customers will continue to be chastised for changing, in 2015.

Also some of the luas fares have been reduced to odd figures, 1.45 is now 1.39 etc. Not a problem really just a bit odd.

Aard · 28-10-2014 3:20pm

The reduction in children's fare on the bus is surprising. Especially so given that under-19s can now avail of the fare, and that schoolchild fares will operate until 19:00 instead of 17:00. That shows a huge drive to get young people using the bus. Great idea, imo, as it gives greater mobility to young people.

Elsewhere, I'm disappointed that the Luas zones are still separated. So Red2->Green2 is considered three zones. Were the zones concentric, it'd only be a two-zone trip. I think this latter arrangement would boost ridership of the Docklands extension. I hope this is looked at in advance of BXD being commissioned.

The discount on second bus journeys is to be welcomed. Does this apply only to bus/bus trips, or can it be used for Luas/bus as well?

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 3:24pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The 'simplification of fares' mentioned in RTÉ news is just a merging of Dublin Bus fares.

Still no sign of a simple zone based multi operator system with no punishment for changing bus/mode.

I note the NTA refer vaguely to some future 'transfer rebate' which will allow customers a discount when taking a 'second journey' within 90 minutes of the first. Of course they aren't two seperate 'journeys' they are merely 2 legs of the same journey, and customers will continue to be chastised for changing, in 2015.

Also some of the luas fares have been reduced to odd figures, 1.45 is now 1.39 etc. Not a problem really just a bit odd.

I'd have to agree about some of the LEAP fares - they should have been rounded up/down to the nearest 5c. I know that they are applying a straight 20% discount both for Bus Eireann and LUAS over the cash fare but it results in really annoying fares.

As for the overall fare structure, I think we are a long way from having a global zonal system. The NTA are making changes to the fare structure very gradually to try to minimise the impact on farebox revenues.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 3:28pm

Aard wrote: »

The reduction in children's fare on the bus is surprising. Especially so given that under-19s can now avail of the fare, and that schoolchild fares will operate until 19:00 instead of 17:00. That shows a huge drive to get young people using the bus. Great idea, imo, as it gives greater mobility to young people.

Elsewhere, I'm disappointed that the Luas zones are still separated. So Red2->Green2 is considered three zones. Were the zones concentric, it'd only be a two-zone trip. I think this latter arrangement would boost ridership of the Docklands extension. I hope this is looked at in advance of BXD being commissioned.

The discount on second bus journeys is to be welcomed. Does this apply only to bus/bus trips, or can it be used for Luas/bus as well?

The reduction in Dublin Bus child LEAP fares is to keep the discount for using LEAP at 20% or more. Thankfully Dublin Bus have kept all fares at multiples of 5c.

The second trip discount is initially on Dublin Bus only. It will extend to all modes early in 2015.

I doubt LUAS zones will change. You'll see a new Green Zone 0 I think to the north of Broadstone. But I think Red 2 to Green 2 will stay three zones.

Aard · 28-10-2014 3:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd have to agree about some of the LEAP fares - they should have been rounded up/down to the nearest 5c. I know that they are applying a straight 20% discount both for Bus Eireann and LUAS over the cash fare but it results in really annoying fares.

Considering that Leap cards will rarely hit absolute zero and are continuously being topped up, the non-rounded fares don't pose such a huge practical problem - they're just not aesthetically pleasing!

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 3:37pm

Aard wrote: »

Considering that Leap cards will rarely hit absolute zero and are continuously being topped up, the non-rounded fares don't pose such a huge practical problem - they're just not aesthetically pleasing!

Agreed - but it does look daft.

hdowney · 28-10-2014 3:38pm

I actually can't work out my fare increase. They just talk about zones etc but honestly I have no fog whatsoever as to the 'zones' I travel from Wicklow Town to UCD on Bus Eireann

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 3:39pm

hdowney wrote: »

I actually can't work out my fare increase. They just talk about zones etc but honestly I have no fog whatsoever as to the 'zones' I travel from Wicklow Town to UCD on Bus Eireann

OK - well what do you currently pay and what sort of ticket are you buying - I'll try and figure out what it is.

What I can say is that the appropriate LEAP fares are the Blue Zone fares:

Adult LEAP 24 hour ticket - €17.15
Adult LEAP 7 day ticket - €57.60
Student LEAP 24 hour ticket - €15.40
Student LEAP 7 day ticket - €51.80

If you're buying a single/return or 10 Journey ticket I'll need to know what fare you're currently paying to figure it out.

Polar101 · 28-10-2014 4:06pm

The Rambler/Monthly tickets seem to be insanely expensive after the very high increases, I wonder if any other place in the world has prices like that for local bus services.

On the other hand, for a bus commuter like me the new prices don't seem bad, since the daily/weekly caps do not increase.

vidor · 28-10-2014 4:34pm

Looking like I'm better off using my car after this increase.

wench · 28-10-2014 4:48pm

coylemj wrote: »

As outlined above The Authority is introducing a second journey discount on Leap card fares on 2nd November on Dublin Bus services. This will allow the customer to get the discounts (€1.00 adult, €1.00 student, €0.70 child) on a second journey that has been commenced within 90 minutes of the start of the first journey. It is planned to introduce this feature across all operators in 2015. Currently the Travel 90 tickets offer a similar type feature where a passenger may use the ticket for 90 minutes to allow them take a second bus journey. With the introduction of the second journey discount this will give a discount of up to €1.00 on the second journey and therefore the travel 90 10 journey tickets will be withdrawn in the first quarter of 2015.

I find this very disingenuous, trying to imply that a travel 90 only covers two journeys.

The new system is a welcome option - particularly if you're not sure your second journey will be withing the time limit.
However, a one euro discount on one extra journey is not a replacement for 90 mins of unlimited usage.

Even two relatively short 4-7 stage journeys would be dearer with this system (3.10 v 2.95)

bikeman1 · 28-10-2014 4:57pm

My fare increases for my daily commute:

Bus €-0.10
DART €0.06
Bike €0.00

So not too bad for me. The taxsaver has become even more unattractive to me with the increases and the slight easing in the tax rates and bands.

munchkin_utd · 28-10-2014 5:00pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

<snip>

So not too bad for me. The taxsaver has become even more unattractive to me with the increases and the slight easing in the tax rates and bands.

well.......
the taxsaver is a bit of a joke in that it benefits higher earners more than low earners.

(that said, low earners benefit from the highest tax threshold/ taxfree allowance in the western world so they arent doing all that badly anyhow. The UK is the best in the G7 top industrial nations, and ireland is almost double as generous as them)

Idbatterim · 28-10-2014 5:13pm

god forbid the poor vulnerable pensioners or those ridiculous amount of people with free travel passes would be asked to stump up anything, this is how off the rails it is here, one section are absolutely sacrosanct and the other are totally disposable and asked to cough up again and again!

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 5:14pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well.......
the taxsaver is a bit of a joke in that it benefits higher earners more than low earners.

(that said, low earners benefit from the highest tax threshold/ taxfree allowance in the western world so they arent doing all that badly anyhow. The UK is the best in the G7 top industrial nations, and ireland is almost double as generous as them)

Given that most low earners would be more likely to be using public transport as it is, I think it's probably right that a greater effort is made to incentivise higher earners onto public transport and out of their cars.

cgcsb · 28-10-2014 5:44pm

Aard wrote: »

The reduction in children's fare on the bus is surprising. Especially so given that under-19s can now avail of the fare, and that schoolchild fares will operate until 19:00 instead of 17:00. That shows a huge drive to get young people using the bus. Great idea, imo, as it gives greater mobility to young people.

Elsewhere, I'm disappointed that the Luas zones are still separated. So Red2->Green2 is considered three zones. Were the zones concentric, it'd only be a two-zone trip. I think this latter arrangement would boost ridership of the Docklands extension. I hope this is looked at in advance of BXD being commissioned.

The discount on second bus journeys is to be welcomed. Does this apply only to bus/bus trips, or can it be used for Luas/bus as well?

The BXD extension will make things interesting alright. How will they avoid having concentric zones?

coylemj · 28-10-2014 5:48pm

wench wrote: »

I find this very disingenuous, trying to imply that a travel 90 only covers two journeys.

It's a factual error by someone in the NTA (the original post of mine that you quoted had that text in italics) who obviously is not aware that one validation of a T90 ticket doesn't limit you to two bus journeys - calling it 'disingenuous' is a bit harsh if not downright pompous.

SparkySpitfire · 28-10-2014 5:57pm

Full bus drove past my stop YET AGAIN. When are fare increases actually going to be used to provide the service I want to pay for?!

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 5:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The BXD extension will make things interesting alright. How will they avoid having concentric zones?

Easily - extend the central zone to cover the red
Zone as far as Broadstone and then have an additional Green zone north covering Broadstone to Broombridge.

LXFlyer · 28-10-2014 6:00pm

coylemj wrote: »

It's a factual error by someone in the NTA (the original post of mine that you quoted had that text in italics) who obviously is not aware that one validation of a T90 ticket doesn't limit you to two bus journeys - calling it 'disingenuous' is a bit harsh if not downright pompous.

Oh I think they know exactly what the ticket allows people to do - they're choosing to eliminate that option.

wench · 28-10-2014 6:27pm

coylemj wrote: »

It's a factual error by someone in the NTA (the original post of mine that you quoted had that text in italics) who obviously is not aware that one validation of a T90 ticket doesn't limit you to two bus journeys - calling it 'disingenuous' is a bit harsh if not downright pompous.

I realise it was the NTA's text not yours, apologies if that was unclear.
Maybe the NTA should find out what the tickets do, before replacing them with inferior products.

cgcsb · 28-10-2014 6:29pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Easily - extend the central zone to cover the red
Zone as far as Broadstone and then have an additional Green zone north covering Broadstone to Broombridge.

How would it be numbered/named they pulled a bit of a fast one with the 'docklands' zone.

Are fares going up on Dec 1?

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