Reasons for driving children to school

beauf · 02-10-2014 11:51pm

I don't think the issue is which country it is. Rather this is telling you why people cycle somewhere else.

Not why people don't cycle here.

How come theres no small kids in those video's at all? They are all on adult bikes? They all look like high nellies? Are they've free or something. Not one MTB, BMX, etc.

_Brian · 03-10-2014 12:20pm

beauf wrote: »

I don't think the issue is which country it is. Rather this is telling you why people cycle somewhere else.

Not why people don't cycle here.

How come theres no small kids in those video's at all? They are all on adult bikes? They all look like high nellies? Are they've free or something. Not one MTB, BMX, etc.

I'd guess no MTB or BMX because they're inefficient for regular transport. A hybred style bike is considerably more efficient and thus easier to cycle over a distance.

My wife this year upgraded her bike from a 16 year old steel frame to a modern aluminium hybrid and there is no comparison.. I'll be doing the same next year.

beauf · 03-10-2014 12:34pm

Those dutch bike don't look like modern hybrids though. They all looked like teenagers on adults sized nellies. Kinda looked like Steel bikes. I was curious I was looking for an easy solution to carry multiple primary school kids bags. Those dutch teenagers seem to have a lot smaller bags than here in general.

I don't think bags are a factor in stopping people cycling ythough.

Iwannahurl · 03-10-2014 12:58pm

_Brian wrote: »

I'd guess no MTB or BMX because they're inefficient for regular transport. A hybred style bike is considerably more efficient and thus easier to cycle over a distance.

My wife this year upgraded her bike from a 16 year old steel frame to a modern aluminium hybrid and there is no comparison.. I'll be doing the same next year.

Switching from a clunky 10 kg heap of sh1t to a properly designed and built 6 kg bike was transformative for my child.

Mind you, I've seen a mother actually carry her child (perhaps 5th or 6th class primary) to school on a BMX!

monument · 03-10-2014 1:17pm

beauf wrote: »

I don't think bags are a factor in stopping people cycling ythough.

It's one of a number of factors -- as proven by parents' responses here and parents I've talked to abd have heard about.

In one case I've been told of a small child who was injured and sustained a broken arm -- it was at least partly put down to the weight of her school bag.

beauf · 03-10-2014 1:52pm

I wonder how true it is though, since almost no-one discussed the practicalities of carrying bags on kids bikes. Which suggests they've not tried it. often its the things people don't say that tell you the most.

ahappychappy · 03-10-2014 2:02pm

My son is six his school bag whilst not overly heavy is large because the books they have appear to be foolscap size. He does not have the co-ordination to cycle with a large bag on his back. We currently walk 35 mins to school Occasionally I have use of a car and if the weather is bad - i.e. lashing etc I will drive him. I regularly see our neighbours driving their children every day and driving back - i.e. I have walked the 35 mins quicker than they have drove I simply do not understand it. The children are healthy as are they and they appear to be at home until school collection time. I simply would not waste the fuel or raise my blood pressure sitting in traffic :-)

beauf · 03-10-2014 3:14pm

One of us takes the kids bags on their bikes But its awkward and time consuming to carry load/unload them that way. Thus far my suggestions of DIY baskets and rails has been rejected. So its back to bungee cord spaghetti.

L1011 · 03-10-2014 5:29pm

In later years, I drove (myself, so car only made two rather than four journeys) as the school effectively both required and didn't provide storage for portable draughtsmans boards for certain subjects - due to the woeful condition of the school provided ones you couldn't do even marginally clean drawings otherwise.

This was required three to four days a week and acted like a sail if you tried carrying it on a bike in any way. Bike went in to the shed, car got used instead.

Schoolbag was an insane weight also and those who were still doing PE would often have to bring in a second kit one two days a week. Can easily see why they'd refuse to cycle or walk with that hazard.

Tenzor07 · 09-10-2014 10:21am

Interesting article from the DM, I know it's UK but i'm sure it's exactly the same here:

School-run-RAGE-Theyre-hordes-mums-clogging-roads-causing-chaos-drop-little-darlings-But-backlash-begun

beauf · 09-10-2014 10:33am

Of course if those complaining about the parents using their cars. Didn't use their cars to commute to work, they wouldn't be affected by it either.

Iwannahurl · 09-10-2014 10:40am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Interesting article from the DM, I know it's UK but i'm sure it's exactly the same here:

School-run-RAGE-Theyre-hordes-mums-clogging-roads-causing-chaos-drop-little-darlings-But-backlash-begun

A 25-minute walk is long for a child, but a 15-minute cycle is a doddle in terms of time and energy expenditure. The physical barriers, as always in Ireland and the UK, are traffic and incomplete streets.

beauf wrote: »

Of course if those complaining about the parents using their cars. Didn't use their cars to commute to work, they wouldn't be affected by it either.

Didn't you hear? Traffic is other people.

Tenzor07 · 09-10-2014 10:46am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Didn't you hear? Traffic is other people.

As the saying goes, your not "stuck in traffic" you Are traffic!

Macy0161 · 09-10-2014 11:07am

beauf wrote: »

I wonder how true it is though, since almost no-one discussed the practicalities of carrying bags on kids bikes. Which suggests they've not tried it. often its the things people don't say that tell you the most.

I'm more for walking them to school, but I have looked into pannier racks for their 20 inch wheeled bikes. They didn't seem readily available, but happy to be supplied with a link, especially at a reasonable cost! It made a big difference to me commutting, and tbh, I wouldn't commute without bags on rack as opposed to a backpack.

Iwannahurl · 09-10-2014 11:21am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm more for walking them to school, but I have looked into pannier racks for their 20 inch wheeled bikes. They didn't seem readily available, but happy to be supplied with a link, especially at a reasonable cost! It made a big difference to me commutting, and tbh, I wouldn't commute without bags on rack as opposed to a backpack.

If they have a carrier over their 20" rear wheel, these will do the job perfectly: http://www.ortlieb.co.uk/bike/front-panniers/front-roller-city-panniers.html

PM if you want more info.

Macy0161 · 09-10-2014 11:27am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If they have a carrier over their 20" rear wheel, these will do the job perfectly: http://www.ortlieb.co.uk/bike/front-panniers/front-roller-city-panniers.html

PM if you want more info.

Sorry, it was the actual racks I didn't have much joy with. I have spare bags!

beauf · 09-10-2014 11:34am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm more for walking them to school, but I have looked into pannier racks for their 20 inch wheeled bikes. They didn't seem readily available, but happy to be supplied with a link, especially at a reasonable cost! It made a big difference to me commutting, and tbh, I wouldn't commute without bags on rack as opposed to a backpack.

I had the same problem. Also with smaller wheeled bikes. No one seems to have considered racks on kids bikes for school bags. And it has to be easy for the kid to do. Putting 2 or 3 kids bags on your own bag is a pain. Once the kid is big enough they can use a rucksack etc. But its a bit awkward till then.

Iwannahurl · 09-10-2014 11:52am

Macy0161 wrote: »

Sorry, it was the actual racks I didn't have much joy with. I have spare bags!

Sorry, I missed the crucial word "rack".

I did a quick Google search but there's a frustrating lack of information. Lots of racks available, but typically no details provided regarding the wheel sizes that can be accommodated.

My kid's 20" bike came with an optional rack, but then it's from a company with a strong design ethic and an interest in making real bikes for kids, as opposed to toys and gimmicks.

beauf · 09-10-2014 11:53am

Funny how so much cycling advice is - to buy a new bike

beauf · 09-10-2014 11:54am

I think putting a solution for kids bike involves too much trial and error. An opportunity for dragons den? They'll just say use a rucksack though.

Macy0161 · 09-10-2014 12:28pm

beauf wrote: »

I think putting a solution for kids bike involves too much trial and error. An opportunity for dragons den? They'll just say use a rucksack though.

Must be out there somewhere, as 20inch wheel folding bikes often have them. Unless they're custom made. Given the cost of some of those bikes, not sure they'd be a realistic cost anyway!

beauf · 09-10-2014 12:32pm

The Geometry of an adults 20" and a kids 20" are quite different. You'd also need specific panniers bags to fit.

You can get the racks. Never thought of looking up Isabikes accessories before.

http://www.islabikes.co.uk/products/accessories/accessories-for-beinn-20-small/item/luggage-rack-for-beinn-20-small

SeanW · 09-10-2014 3:02pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

As the saying goes, your not "stuck in traffic" you Are traffic!

Both statements are true when someone is stuck in traffic. Is this more policing of language, like with ROAD TAX?

Cookie_Monster · 09-10-2014 9:11pm

beauf wrote: »

I think putting a solution for kids bike involves too much trial and error. An opportunity for dragons den? They'll just say use a rucksack though.

or you know, just review the need to bring so many books to and from school every day. I never remember it being an issue. Most books get left in school daily, either in a locker or basket on/under desk

Iwannahurl · 09-10-2014 9:22pm

beauf wrote: »

The Geometry of an adults 20" and a kids 20" are quite different. You'd also need specific panniers bags to fit.

You can get the racks. Never thought of looking up Isabikes accessories before.

http://www.islabikes.co.uk/products/accessories/accessories-for-beinn-20-small/item/luggage-rack-for-beinn-20-small

A thought occurs: do all kids' bikes with 20" wheels have the necessary mounts for attaching a carrier/rack to?

If so, why are carriers/racks not available as a standard accessory?

If not, why not?

beauf · 09-10-2014 9:30pm

No demand I'm guessing.

Iwannahurl · 28-10-2014 11:38am

Used the car this morning for a specific event in Galway City centre. Very wet and windy weather, with spot flooding in lots of areas.

Outward leg at around 07:45, return journey with several detours around 08:20.

Very little traffic.

Why? Mid-term break of course.

On one key route traffic was a fraction of what it would have been if the schools were open, and the junctions on some sections were entirely free-flowing.

A Garda I spoke to a few weeks ago about recurring traffic and parking chaos insisted that most people clogging up the roads with their cars on the morning school run are heading to work afterwards.

Are they all on holidays this week then?

Peppa Pig · 28-10-2014 11:49am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Outward leg at around 08:45, return journey with several detours around 08:20.

Did the clocks go back when you got into the city centre or were you driving a DeLorean?

A lot of the parents of the children in my kids schools are actually off today. On our small road there are no parents driving to work today. It's pretty common after a bank holiday.

beauf · 28-10-2014 11:55am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...

Why? Mid-term break of course. ...are they all on holidays this week then?

Yes. It will be a quiet week in many offices/workplaces I expect.

L1011 · 28-10-2014 12:00pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why? Mid-term break of course.

Resulting in about a third of the non-critical staff in here being on holidays. Probably a significantly higher % of the ones with kids actually.

SeanW · 28-10-2014 12:19pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Are they all on holidays this week then?

Either on holidays or driving directly to work instead of detouring to the school?

Iwannahurl · 28-10-2014 12:25pm

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Did the clocks go back when you got into the city centre or were you driving a DeLorean?

A lot of the parents of the children in my kids schools are actually off today. On our small road there are no parents driving to work today. It's pretty common after a bank holiday.

Well spotted. It was of course 07:45-8:20.

I'd love to see hard stats and detailed analysis regarding traffic and transportation during school breaks.

Traffic is also much lighter during the long summer holidays.

Also, the significant reduction in traffic congestion during school breaks shows what can occur due to travel choices rather than expansion of infrastructure. In other words, traffic can flow freely on the same road network when people do things differently.

Macy0161 · 28-10-2014 12:37pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A Garda I spoke to a few weeks ago about recurring traffic and parking chaos insisted that most people clogging up the roads with their cars on the morning school run are heading to work afterwards.

Are they all on holidays this week then?

Not sure I see the contradiction tbh. However, a lot of people are off this week, and particularly today.

We don't drop off on the way to work usually, but even then if one of us is off it changes the commutting pattern of the one who is working. For example, I left a bit later today, as I won't be under pressure this evening to collect the children as the missus is off, so I'll probably be in work later.

For what it's worth, today I would've been quicker driving than on the bike, which is probably the first day since the 2nd week in September.

beauf · 28-10-2014 1:10pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

....In other words, traffic can flow freely on the same road network when people do things differently.

People are free to do things differently because they aren't tied to a school schedule this week. Which means they take the week off, or travel at different times. If they didn't have to work it would be the same thing. Or they got a job in a different location.

Iwannahurl · 28-10-2014 1:54pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not sure I see the contradiction tbh.

It was pure speculation on his part.

Also, he was focusing only on the morning school run, because that suited his 'hypothesis'.

The traffic congestion and parking chaos around schools is also acute during the afternoon pick-up, which also undermines the 'driving on to work' notion.

Regardless of the alleged reasons for the self-evident reduction in traffic when the schools are off, the fact remains that the congestion phenomenon is not fixed.

During term time commuters' attitudes harden considerably: motorists have absolutely no choice but to do what they're doing, ie clog up the roads in their droves. In Galway this is considered to be such an unalterable fact of life that massive Government intervention is required (urgently, for the past 20 years at least).

Mid-term break arrives, and all of a sudden people have flexibility in their travel choices, and congestion (in Galway City at least) evaporates. It is my belief that this phenomenon should be investigated in detail, to separate myth from reality and supposition from fact.

beauf · 28-10-2014 3:24pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...The traffic congestion and parking chaos around schools is also acute during the afternoon pick-up, which also undermines the 'driving on to work' notion.....

Its may not be the same people doing the morning drop off as do the afternoon pick-up. Many couples alternate it. It should be better in the afternoon, as classes end times are staggered, you've got infants on a shorter day, people doing homework classes, or after school activities all running later.

What is your issue with this anyway. If you don't drive, you avoid all the hassle.

Iwannahurl · 28-10-2014 5:32pm

beauf wrote: »

Its may not be the same people doing the morning drop off as do the afternoon pick-up. Many couples alternate it.

Regardless, their chosen mode of travel is the private car. Given the way traffic congestion evaporates when the schools are off, there is obvious potential for focusing on the school run as a core part of Transportation Demand Management generally. I would argue that it's far better, more cost-effective and more sustainable to spend tens of millions on TDM than, say, €300 million on a new road to facilitate car use.

beauf wrote: »

What is your issue with this anyway. If you don't drive, you avoid all the hassle.

Everyone in society bears the cost of car dependence. Since the transport sector is a major contributor to CO2 emissions, here's one rather important reason why it is, or ought to be, an issue for everyone: http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/publications/downloads/schellnhuber08-pnas.pdf

How do people walking and cycling to school avoid the hassle of others' car use and car dependence? Levitating is not an option. They have to go to the same schools in the same places, just as non-smokers have to breathe the same air as smokers do.

beauf · 28-10-2014 5:54pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

....How do people walking and cycling to school avoid the hassle of others' car use and car dependence? Levitating is not an option. ...

Why is levitation the only option? The path is completely clear in one of those photos you can see people on the path in the other. In both photos you can pass all those cars on your bicycle, by staying centre lane.

Privatise the parking enforcement.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/fears-traffic-warden-service-to-be-privatised-30247556.html

beauf · 28-10-2014 5:57pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...Given the way traffic congestion evaporates when the schools are off, there is obvious potential for focusing on the school run as a core part of Transportation Demand Management generally. ...

You could also adjust your own travel to miss the school pick-up times.

Iwannahurl · 28-10-2014 9:17pm

beauf wrote: »

you can pass all those cars on your bicycle, by staying centre lane.

beauf wrote: »

You could also adjust your own travel to miss the school pick-up times.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, are you suggesting that (a) children can cycle to school in the middle of the road through traffic and (b) go early or late to school, in order to accommodate cars?

On reading your comments again, I suspect probably not. Just so we're clear, I'm talking about the effects of school car traffic, not just on commuters generally, but also on children and their parents who walk, cycle or use public transport to get to school.

beauf · 28-10-2014 10:31pm

Sorry I though your point was they can't walk to school, because the path is blocked. When your example shows a clear path in one photo and people walking on the path in the other. If its cycling, your photo shows someone (a kid?) on bicycle on (I assume on a path). The alternative is that painted bit of road. But are you suggesting they shouldn't be on the road. Perhaps then you're suggesting you need fully segregated facilities. In which case you'll have to wait till they are built. If kids can't cycle on a path and adults can't cycle on a road. For me I see those photos and see cycling as a attractive alternative. You seem to suggesting promoting the idea that its too dangerous.

ezra_pound · 28-10-2014 10:36pm

I think it's very important for the children themselves not to be driven to school, to experience the school walk or school cycle, if at all possible. Of course, all the other reasons not to drive your children to school mentioned stand.

beauf · 28-10-2014 10:42pm

My school commute was 10k each way through the city center. I don't think at 11 or 12 its was that suitable for walking or cycling tbh.

monument · 29-10-2014 2:11pm

beauf wrote: »

My school commute was 10k each way through the city center. I don't think at 11 or 12 its was that suitable for walking or cycling tbh.

Don't think anybody said walking or cycling did or does or even can suit everybody.

Reasons for driving children to school

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