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Will the budget give us what we deserve?

  • 14-11-2012 11:49am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭


    While mass demonstrations and work stoppages are carried out throughout Europe today, we the good old obedient Irish, will just carry on as we are heading off into work. Sure we'll all have a moan about rising taxes, social welfare cuts blah blah blah, but when it comes to it we'll just accept the budget in January and move on.

    I know there's something planned for Nov 24th, but surely coordinating with the rest of Europe would be a more powerful statement. And I bet the march on the 24th barley gets 5,000 people.

    Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

    When the government knows there's no repercussions from a harsh budget, they're not going to hold back!

    I reckon the peoples lack of action, means we can't really complain about what the government do in December!


«13

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭sfwcork


    I agree and I pat your back

    Would you like anything else?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    Protesting will achieve nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    The ordinary P.A.Y.E worker will get hairy aped again, whilst the ''minority groups'' will be left alone. So in answer to your question yes we will get what we deserve because we sit back and take it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭maddragon


    Valetta wrote: »
    Protesting will achieve nothing.

    Said one concentration camp inmate to the other...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭bbam


    Valetta wrote: »
    Protesting will achieve nothing.

    Isn't that what yer man in Syria keeps saying?


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,869 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

    You answered your own question there largely.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    maddragon wrote: »
    Said one concentration camp inmate to the other...

    Are you comparing the struggles of the inmates of a concentration camp to our present economic challenges?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    Apathy is the biggest problem in Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    "Deserve" is a concept created by humans. It doesn't have a lot of real-world value.


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    You're right OP, we should be Greece. That's really worked for them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Valetta wrote: »
    Protesting will achieve nothing.


    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    DeVore wrote: »
    You're right OP, we should be Greece. That's really worked for them.

    Quiet Capitalist.:D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    While mass demonstrations and work stoppages are carried out throughout Europe today, we the good old obedient Irish, will just carry on as we are heading off into work. Sure we'll all have a moan about rising taxes, social welfare cuts blah blah blah, but when it comes to it we'll just accept the budget in January and move on.

    I know there's something planned for Nov 24th, but surely coordinating with the rest of Europe would be a more powerful statement. And I bet the march on the 24th barley gets 5,000 people.

    Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

    When the government knows there's no repercussions from a harsh budget, they're not going to hold back!

    I reckon the peoples lack of action, means we can't really complain about what the government do in December!

    Do you have any alternatives to reduce our fiscal deficit?

    Protesters without alternatives really p1ss me off. It's like listening to a baby that won't stop crying or an incessant house alarm. It wears you down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    It's a budget Ireland deserves, but not the one we need right now.....










    Wait..........sugar tax? Fack off, ya kant!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭Lenin Skynard


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    And they rolled back on some of the home help cuts for the disabled not long ago after a very-small scale protest. The last thing this government wants is visible demonstration on the streets. It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭maddragon


    Are you comparing the struggles of the inmates of a concentration camp to our present economic challenges?

    No, I'm saying that protesting is an extremely important part of democracy because if things keep sliding here the way they are now, we'll all be back in mudhuts with outside toilets in 20 years. Of course the government will keep riding us like Shergar until we the people call a halt and force them to find another way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Spiritual


    A good move which would convince me that the austerity is working would be if the people that are responsible for destroying our country were held to account.
    Be it long jail time for those that acted criminally and loss of future earnings for those that were negligent in their roles.

    I have paid for their errors with the loss of my livelihood.


  • Registered Users Posts: 590 ✭✭✭maddragon


    Do you have any alternatives to reduce our fiscal deficit?

    Protesters without alternatives really p1ss me off. It's like listening to a baby that won't stop crying or an incessant house alarm. It wears you down.

    It is the job of the government to find an alternative otherwise they can fuxk off and I'll pay my taxes directly to Berlin and cut out the middleman.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.

    Impressive use of hyperbole.

    How do you suggest we plug a €12 billion hole between what we pay out compared to what we take in? How will large scale protest and demonstration make this problem go away?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    How can any country prosper or grow when the welfare bill is 75% of the tax take. We need as a country to get the SW bill under control.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    And then what? What the **** are we supposed? Money is draining out of the bucket. Yes, plugging the hole will fix it, but in the mean time, we have to keep pouring money in to stop the bucket emptying completely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭Where To


    I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

    It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    And then what? What the **** are we supposed? Money is draining out of the bucket. Yes, plugging the hole will fix it, but in the mean time, we have to keep pouring money in to stop the bucket emptying completely.

    Well for a start how about asking financial institutions to make a contribution. How about the government sticking to self imposed pay caps, instead of ministers like Leo Varadkar seeking a €400,000 salary for the new Dublin Airport Authority boss despite a €250,000 pay cap. How about we start there?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224179/Varadkar-tried-break-pay-cap-airport-boss-new-DAA-boss-accepted-job-Howlin-blocked-giant-salary.html

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    Where To wrote: »
    I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

    It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.

    Why would it be good for people to see real hardship as you put.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Where To wrote: »
    I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

    It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.

    When you say it would be good for "people" to experience real hardship do you include yourself or just lesser "people"?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    I love this delusion that our austerity is a free policy choice, as if we could spend way more and tax less if we so choose.

    Presumably the people protesting austerity in this country also harangue tramps about their poor standard of clothing, hygiene and choice of dwelling, pointing out that Brown Thomas and the Shelbourne Hotel are only 5 minutes walk away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    I love this delusion that our austerity is a free policy choice, as if we could spend way more and tax less if we so choose.

    Presumably the people protesting austerity in this country also harangue tramps about their poor standard of clothing, hygiene and choice of dwelling, pointing out that Brown Thomas and the Shelbourne Hotel are only 5 minutes walk away.

    Or we could advise said begger to stop handing over wads of his cash to a bust bank and buy himself a coat.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    And they rolled back on some of the home help cuts for the disabled not long ago after a very-small scale protest. The last thing this government wants is visible demonstration on the streets. It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.
    So wealthy pensioners kept their pensions, meaning deeper cuts had to made to other services. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭AEDIC


    Spiritual wrote: »
    Apathy is the biggest problem in Ireland.

    Meh...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Or we could advise said begger to stop handing over wads of his cash to a bust bank and buy himself a coat.
    So you are persisting with the fiction that the bank bailouts are the problem, rather than the current account deficit?

    You are either being dishonest or are very badly informed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

    Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    So wealthy pensioners kept their pensions, meaning deeper cuts had to made to other services. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    Of course, we could forget about this ruinous spending of money we don't have, and allow the next couple of generations to deal with it instead.

    Let's party like it's 2006!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

    The people have power. We just don't use it.

    The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I think people are protesting the wrong thing.

    We should be protesting corruption, abuse, and waste in the government. We should be fighting against *that*.

    Protesting against the budget is kind of missing the point. You can't keep spending money you don't have.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    So you are persisting with the fiction that the bank bailouts are the problem, rather than the current account deficit?

    You are either being dishonest or are very badly informed.

    Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?
    So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

    Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.

    And debt servicing, including debts due to the bank bailout is contributing to this.

    The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.

    Students are protesting at UCD - I'm not sure if it's today or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Walt Jabsco


    There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?
    The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

    The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 422 ✭✭BensonSlide


    There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?


    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »

    The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

    So austerity is needed is what your saying.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

    The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.

    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

    So pretend that 3rd doesn't exist. How do we pay for the other 2/3rds without cuts?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    So austerity is needed is what your saying.

    We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

    Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

    How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.
    Unless we get the famous deal on the Anglo debt as expected, in which case it will be more like a sixth of it.

    So where does the rest of the money come from? And how does complaining about spent money further this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭wicorthered


    I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

    To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

    I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

    Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

    A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,631 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?

    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.

    The government have all the resources of the state, highly paid advisors, consultants, civil servants etc to offer alternatives themselves. All we are being offered at the moment is one choice.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

    Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

    How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.
    At least you are suggesting alternatives, but I'd suggest chasing the wealthy out of the country and taxing jobs would be even more disastrous than the current course as we'd eventually have to cut all those things anyway due to the blasted wilderness that the economy would become.


  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Walt Jabsco


    Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?
    I don't know, why don't you come along and find out. At least people are trying to do something about this mess.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.
    .

    Surely if your going to oppose something you have you own views on the way it should work?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

    To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

    I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

    Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

    A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!
    Do you think Greece are doing better than us? No shortage of protests and indeed deaths over there.


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