Will the budget give us what we deserve?

wicorthered · 14-11-2012 11:49am #1

While mass demonstrations and work stoppages are carried out throughout Europe today, we the good old obedient Irish, will just carry on as we are heading off into work. Sure we'll all have a moan about rising taxes, social welfare cuts blah blah blah, but when it comes to it we'll just accept the budget in January and move on.

I know there's something planned for Nov 24th, but surely coordinating with the rest of Europe would be a more powerful statement. And I bet the march on the 24th barley gets 5,000 people.

Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

When the government knows there's no repercussions from a harsh budget, they're not going to hold back!

I reckon the peoples lack of action, means we can't really complain about what the government do in December!

sfwcork · 14-11-2012 11:52am

I agree and I pat your back

Would you like anything else?

Valetta · 14-11-2012 11:52am

Protesting will achieve nothing.

not yet · 14-11-2012 11:53am

The ordinary P.A.Y.E worker will get hairy aped again, whilst the ''minority groups'' will be left alone. So in answer to your question yes we will get what we deserve because we sit back and take it.

maddragon · 14-11-2012 11:54am

Valetta wrote: »

Protesting will achieve nothing.

Said one concentration camp inmate to the other...

bbam · 14-11-2012 11:54am

Valetta wrote: »

Protesting will achieve nothing.

Isn't that what yer man in Syria keeps saying?

PauloMN · 14-11-2012 11:55am

wicorthered wrote: »

Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

You answered your own question there largely.

BensonSlide · 14-11-2012 11:57am

maddragon wrote: »

Said one concentration camp inmate to the other...

Are you comparing the struggles of the inmates of a concentration camp to our present economic challenges?

Spiritual · 14-11-2012 11:58am

Apathy is the biggest problem in Ireland.

MistyCheese · 14-11-2012 12:01pm

"Deserve" is a concept created by humans. It doesn't have a lot of real-world value.

DeVore · 14-11-2012 12:01pm

You're right OP, we should be Greece. That's really worked for them.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:02pm

Valetta wrote: »

Protesting will achieve nothing.

Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

The people have power. We just don't use it.

Spiritual · 14-11-2012 12:03pm

DeVore wrote: »

You're right OP, we should be Greece. That's really worked for them.

Quiet Capitalist.:D

Scanlas The 2nd · 14-11-2012 12:03pm

wicorthered wrote: »

While mass demonstrations and work stoppages are carried out throughout Europe today, we the good old obedient Irish, will just carry on as we are heading off into work. Sure we'll all have a moan about rising taxes, social welfare cuts blah blah blah, but when it comes to it we'll just accept the budget in January and move on.

I know there's something planned for Nov 24th, but surely coordinating with the rest of Europe would be a more powerful statement. And I bet the march on the 24th barley gets 5,000 people.

Are the cuts not hurting people as bad as it's being made out? Surely if people were actually on the bread line, there'd be enough outrage to lead to actual genuine protests?

When the government knows there's no repercussions from a harsh budget, they're not going to hold back!

I reckon the peoples lack of action, means we can't really complain about what the government do in December!

Do you have any alternatives to reduce our fiscal deficit?

Protesters without alternatives really p1ss me off. It's like listening to a baby that won't stop crying or an incessant house alarm. It wears you down.

Duggy747 · 14-11-2012 12:05pm

It's a budget Ireland deserves, but not the one we need right now.....

Wait..........sugar tax? Fack off, ya kant!!

Lenin Skynard · 14-11-2012 12:06pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

The people have power. We just don't use it.

And they rolled back on some of the home help cuts for the disabled not long ago after a very-small scale protest. The last thing this government wants is visible demonstration on the streets. It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.

maddragon · 14-11-2012 12:08pm

BensonSlide wrote: »

Are you comparing the struggles of the inmates of a concentration camp to our present economic challenges?

No, I'm saying that protesting is an extremely important part of democracy because if things keep sliding here the way they are now, we'll all be back in mudhuts with outside toilets in 20 years. Of course the government will keep riding us like Shergar until we the people call a halt and force them to find another way.

Spiritual · 14-11-2012 12:09pm

A good move which would convince me that the austerity is working would be if the people that are responsible for destroying our country were held to account.
Be it long jail time for those that acted criminally and loss of future earnings for those that were negligent in their roles.

I have paid for their errors with the loss of my livelihood.

maddragon · 14-11-2012 12:09pm

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Do you have any alternatives to reduce our fiscal deficit?

Protesters without alternatives really p1ss me off. It's like listening to a baby that won't stop crying or an incessant house alarm. It wears you down.

It is the job of the government to find an alternative otherwise they can fuxk off and I'll pay my taxes directly to Berlin and cut out the middleman.

BensonSlide · 14-11-2012 12:10pm

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.

Impressive use of hyperbole.

How do you suggest we plug a €12 billion hole between what we pay out compared to what we take in? How will large scale protest and demonstration make this problem go away?

not yet · 14-11-2012 12:14pm

How can any country prosper or grow when the welfare bill is 75% of the tax take. We need as a country to get the SW bill under control.

Sofiztikated · 14-11-2012 12:14pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

The people have power. We just don't use it.

And then what? What the **** are we supposed? Money is draining out of the bucket. Yes, plugging the hole will fix it, but in the mean time, we have to keep pouring money in to stop the bucket emptying completely.

Where To · 14-11-2012 12:16pm

I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:22pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

And then what? What the **** are we supposed? Money is draining out of the bucket. Yes, plugging the hole will fix it, but in the mean time, we have to keep pouring money in to stop the bucket emptying completely.

Well for a start how about asking financial institutions to make a contribution. How about the government sticking to self imposed pay caps, instead of ministers like Leo Varadkar seeking a €400,000 salary for the new Dublin Airport Authority boss despite a €250,000 pay cap. How about we start there?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2224179/Varadkar-tried-break-pay-cap-airport-boss-new-DAA-boss-accepted-job-Howlin-blocked-giant-salary.html

not yet · 14-11-2012 12:24pm

Where To wrote: »

I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.

Why would it be good for people to see real hardship as you put.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:25pm

Where To wrote: »

I'm only worried that the budget won't be harsh enough.

It would be good for people to see what real hardship is.

When you say it would be good for "people" to experience real hardship do you include yourself or just lesser "people"?

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:25pm

I love this delusion that our austerity is a free policy choice, as if we could spend way more and tax less if we so choose.

Presumably the people protesting austerity in this country also harangue tramps about their poor standard of clothing, hygiene and choice of dwelling, pointing out that Brown Thomas and the Shelbourne Hotel are only 5 minutes walk away.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:28pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I love this delusion that our austerity is a free policy choice, as if we could spend way more and tax less if we so choose.

Presumably the people protesting austerity in this country also harangue tramps about their poor standard of clothing, hygiene and choice of dwelling, pointing out that Brown Thomas and the Shelbourne Hotel are only 5 minutes walk away.

Or we could advise said begger to stop handing over wads of his cash to a bust bank and buy himself a coat.

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:29pm

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

And they rolled back on some of the home help cuts for the disabled not long ago after a very-small scale protest. The last thing this government wants is visible demonstration on the streets. It would burst the whole farcical balloon that Enda has created with his European overlords.

So wealthy pensioners kept their pensions, meaning deeper cuts had to made to other services. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

AEDIC · 14-11-2012 12:29pm

Spiritual wrote: »

Apathy is the biggest problem in Ireland.

Meh...

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:33pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Or we could advise said begger to stop handing over wads of his cash to a bust bank and buy himself a coat.

So you are persisting with the fiction that the bank bailouts are the problem, rather than the current account deficit?

You are either being dishonest or are very badly informed.

Guy:Incognito · 14-11-2012 12:33pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

The people have power. We just don't use it.

So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.

BensonSlide · 14-11-2012 12:34pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So wealthy pensioners kept their pensions, meaning deeper cuts had to made to other services. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Of course, we could forget about this ruinous spending of money we don't have, and allow the next couple of generations to deal with it instead.

Let's party like it's 2006!

gobnaitolunacy · 14-11-2012 12:36pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not true. When the pensioners took to the streets following budget cuts that affected them the government performed a swift volte face.

The people have power. We just don't use it.

The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.

UCDVet · 14-11-2012 12:37pm

I think people are protesting the wrong thing.

We should be protesting corruption, abuse, and waste in the government. We should be fighting against *that*.

Protesting against the budget is kind of missing the point. You can't keep spending money you don't have.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:38pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you are persisting with the fiction that the bank bailouts are the problem, rather than the current account deficit?

You are either being dishonest or are very badly informed.

Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So if everyone protests and nothing is cut, how do we pay for stuff?

Stuff like the massive deficit, not the banks, bondholders or any other rabble rabble stuff. The day to day running of the country that is costing more than what is brought in.

And debt servicing, including debts due to the bank bailout is contributing to this.

The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

UCDVet · 14-11-2012 12:39pm

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

The pensioners have power because pensioners vote in large numbers. The govt wouldn't take one bit of notice of a student protest. They don't bother voting en masse and in a few years the most of them will have left the country anyway.

Students are protesting at UCD - I'm not sure if it's today or not.

Walt Jabsco · 14-11-2012 12:42pm

There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:43pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Are you saying that the bank bailout is not a problem and that it does not affect the current account deficit?

The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.

BensonSlide · 14-11-2012 12:45pm

Walt Jabsco wrote: »

There is a national protest (before the Budget) organised in Dublin on Sat the 24th of November, meeting at Parnell Square at 1pm. It is organised by the Dublin Council of Trade Unions, Siptu (believe it or not), The National Campaign against the Household/Septic Tank Charge and ordinary Joe Soaps like myself who march under no banners. Everybody who can should go and stand and be counted instead of hiding behind a keyboard and giving out. I for one will be there with my mates. Will You?

Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?

Guy:Incognito · 14-11-2012 12:47pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The bank bailout is not the only problem and we continue to spend more than we earn, but it is part of the problem.

So austerity is needed is what your saying.

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:49pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The bailouts are history - a sunk cost. There's no point in crying about it now. Even if we never bailed out the banks, we'd have to cut about €10 billion from current spending (the bailouts cost just over €60 billion, funding that at 5% interest would cost €3 billion P.A.). If we get the ECB to take the Anglo promissory notes off our hands, that will be halved at a stroke.

The bailouts did not help, but the overwhelming majority of the problem is overspending on social welfare, civil service salaries etc. etc.

The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

Guy:Incognito · 14-11-2012 12:50pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

So pretend that 3rd doesn't exist. How do we pay for the other 2/3rds without cuts?

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:55pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So austerity is needed is what your saying.

We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:57pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The bank bailout will cost over €64 billion.So a third of the annual €10 billion tax increases and spending cuts are as a result of the bank bailout.

Unless we get the famous deal on the Anglo debt as expected, in which case it will be more like a sixth of it.

So where does the rest of the money come from? And how does complaining about spent money further this?

wicorthered · 14-11-2012 12:58pm

I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!

SafeSurfer · 14-11-2012 12:58pm

BensonSlide wrote: »

Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?

I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.

The government have all the resources of the state, highly paid advisors, consultants, civil servants etc to offer alternatives themselves. All we are being offered at the moment is one choice.

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 12:59pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

We cannot continue spending more than we earn. How we go about bridging that gap is down to political choices. One way money could have been raised would have been the introduction of a financial transaction tax, super levies on pensions, wealth tax over a million euro, the universal social charge being applied to corporate profits etc.

Austerity does not have to mean that home help for disabled citizens is withdrawn.

How the books are balanced is a political choice. Political power comes from the people. The people must articulate what choices we wish our politicians to make.

At least you are suggesting alternatives, but I'd suggest chasing the wealthy out of the country and taxing jobs would be even more disastrous than the current course as we'd eventually have to cut all those things anyway due to the blasted wilderness that the economy would become.

Walt Jabsco · 14-11-2012 1:00pm

BensonSlide wrote: »

Will there be detailed and costed alternatives to the Government's plans made available on the day?

I don't know, why don't you come along and find out. At least people are trying to do something about this mess.

Guy:Incognito · 14-11-2012 1:01pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don't understand why people argue that those opposed to the current austerity must propose an alternative or stay silent.
.

Surely if your going to oppose something you have you own views on the way it should work?

Monty Burnz · 14-11-2012 1:01pm

wicorthered wrote: »

I'm no expert on international finances or anything like that. I get all my info from the media and listening to the like of David McWilliam. So maybe I'm wrong in with I think but here it is.

To me it seems Europe dictates Irish financial policy. Telling the government to get the deficit down to a certain % by a certain date, making the government bail out anglo, etc.

I think when the Irish government deal with Europe, they go into these meetings submissive and ready to do what they're told. They can do this because there is no backlash at home. They know the Irish people will shrug and move on. So they will do what's easier for them. Cutting SW is easier for them than having Merkel angry at them!!

Maybe if the Noonan and Co knew that by accepting unfavourable EU conditions, E.g no bank deal, they'd be creating a strong public reaction, e.g work stoppages and demos, maybe they'd be tougher in their negotiations and fight to get Ireland better terms, leading to less harsh budgets.

A lot of people seem completely against any form of protest, are these people happy with how Ireland is run?!

Do you think Greece are doing better than us? No shortage of protests and indeed deaths over there.

Will the budget give us what we deserve?

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