Withdrawing monies prior to mothers death

rebelden · 09-12-2013 6:10pm #1

Hi there, don't know if this is the correct place but anyway recently my mother passed away. However earlier on the day she died she instructed me to withdrawn monies (60,000) form her current account which I did by bank overdaft made payable to myself. I lodged same in my bank account.
She subsequently died at 6pm the same day. Can the revenue pursue me for tax avoidance?

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 6:11pm

Look up the inheritance threshold for tax. It's still in the hundreds of thousands, I think.

Pro Hoc Vice · 09-12-2013 6:21pm

rebelden wrote: »

Hi there, don't know if this is the correct place but anyway recently my mother passed away. However earlier on the day she died she instructed me to withdrawn monies (60,000) form her current account which I did by bank overdaft made payable to myself. I lodged same in my bank account.
She subsequently died at 6pm the same day. Can the revenue pursue me for tax avoidance?

I can't see how its avoidance, it is either a gift or an inheritance, correct me if I'm wrong but the thresholds are the same. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/thresholds.html

coylemj · 09-12-2013 6:40pm

infosys wrote: »

I can't see how its avoidance, it is either a gift or an inheritance, correct me if I'm wrong but the thresholds are the same. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/cat/thresholds.html

+1 OP, it makes no odds as the exemption level for a son or daughter is 225K so whether you received that money as a gift or an inheritance, you wouldn't be liable to pay CAT.

schemingbohemia · 09-12-2013 6:59pm

Firstly, sorry for your loss.

Surely the Executor should ask questions - did you get written instructions? If there are other beneficiaries to the will other than yourself the Executor could be obliged to find out why this withdrawal took place.

coylemj · 09-12-2013 7:06pm

rebelden wrote: »

Hi there, don't know if this is the correct place but anyway recently my mother passed away. However earlier on the day she died she instructed me to withdrawn monies (60,000) form her current account which I did by bank overdaft made payable to myself. I lodged same in my bank account.
She subsequently died at 6pm the same day. Can the revenue pursue me for tax avoidance?

Some of the details of this transaction are strange...

'she instructed me to withdrawn monies'

What is meant by 'instructed'? You can't withdraw money based on a verbal instruction, was there a signed cheque or withdrawal form?

form her current account

60,000 in a current account

which I did by bank overdaft made payable to myself

A bank overdraft is a facility in your own account, that statement makes no sense.

rebelden · 09-12-2013 7:07pm

No will I am afraid. Two other sisters are aware of withdrawal of monies. One other question, my father passed away three years ago. I was gifted a site with a value of about 200,000 plus sum other monies. What way will this work with tax thresholds and current monies.

rebelden · 09-12-2013 7:26pm

[QUOTE=coylemj I withdrew the money from the current account using her bank card. Same name as mother. I was responsible for day to day financial running of household. Card always in my possession. Instructed to pay funeral expenses if she every died plus what ever. Did not want account frozen.

coylemj · 09-12-2013 7:42pm

rebelden wrote: »

I withdrew the money from the current account using her bank card. Same name as mother. I was responsible for day to day financial running of household. Card always in my possession. Instructed to pay funeral expenses if she every died plus what ever. Did not want account frozen.

I find it strange that a bank official handed over a draft for 60,000 payable to you and drawn on your mother's account based solely on your possession of her ATM card and presumably your knowledge of the PIN.

If I was that bank official, I'd simply ask: 'why doesn't your mother write a cheque to you and sign it?'

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 7:46pm

In any normal set of circumstances, the last thing anyone should want is the account frozen.

Unfortunately, the inheritance/gift from parent(s) threshold is (1) for all such windfalls added together (2) much lower than it used to be (i.e. for a child it's now €225k, down from €543k in early 2009).

podger456 · 09-12-2013 7:56pm

OP, it's up to you to make a tax return and pay any tax due. You need to talk to an accountant fairly swiftly as the return deadline is 15 December if the liability arose before 30 November, and 31 January next if it arose after 30 November.

tricky D · 09-12-2013 8:19pm

OP sorry for your loss.

coylemj wrote: »

I find it strange that a bank official handed over a draft for 60,000 payable to you and drawn on your mother's account based solely on your possession of her ATM card and presumably your knowledge of the PIN.

Unless there's Power of Attorney which in this case is very unlikely given intestacy. There might be also other potential complications wrt Probate and Capital Acquisition as the withdrawal was on the same day as passing. OP consult a solicitor.

coylemj · 09-12-2013 8:35pm

tricky D wrote: »

There might be also other potential complications wrt Probate and Capital Acquisition as the withdrawal was on the same day as passing.

If the withdrawal happened while the mother was still alive and it was with her consent, where's the problem? OP explicitly stated that she died at 6 p.m., presumably to indicate to us posters that the financial transaction happened before she died.

tricky D wrote: »

OP consult a solicitor.

Isn't that something for others to consider? Why should the OP consult anyone? If someone gave me a cheque, I cashed it and the person was hit by a bus that evening, are you saying I would need to consult a solicitor?

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 8:41pm

I know of a case where a similar sum was transferred from one account to another (within the same bank) by a sympathetic bank manager to enable a household to continue to function after the imminent (intestate) death of the head of household. No hassle ensued.

coylemj · 09-12-2013 8:47pm

HansHolzel wrote: »

I know of a case where a similar sum was transferred from one account to another (within the same bank) by a sympathetic bank manager to enable a household to continue to function after the imminent (intestate) death of the head of household. No hassle ensued.

It surely depends on how the next of kin function and whether they trust each other. Not for a minute questioning the OP's motives but one member of a family withdrawing a large sum of money on the day the parent dies would be seen by some as a means to disinherit the other siblings. In such a hypothetical case, one could well ask: 'if the parent intended the child to get all that cash, why didn't she just make a will stating this intent?'

A 'sympathetic bank manager' might get his rear end severely kicked if the other members of the family cry foul and kick up a stink.

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 8:49pm

I know what you're saying but it seems the other siblings are onside in this case.

coylemj · 09-12-2013 9:01pm

HansHolzel wrote: »

I know what you're saying but it seems the other siblings are onside in this case.

I'm inclined to agree, especially when the bank facilitated such a large withdrawal in favour of one member of the family.

tricky D · 09-12-2013 9:03pm

coylemj wrote: »

If the withdrawal happened while the mother was still alive and it was with her consent, where's the problem? OP explicitly stated that she died at 6 p.m., presumably to indicate to us posters that the financial transaction happened before she died.

You alluded to the verbal vs written consent potential issue yourself. My point re PoA is in addition to your own points.

Then there's fraud/utterance potential strictly speaking but I couldn't see that becoming a real issue there given the circumstances. PoA would have made this all much more solid.

coylemj wrote: »

Isn't that something for others to consider? Why should the OP consult anyone? If someone gave me a cheque, I cashed it and the person was hit by a bus that evening, are you saying I would need to consult a solicitor?

Consult in case of potential issues especially considering intestacy. Advised but not mandatory but isn't that so often the case for consulting a solicitor ie. to avoid/address potential issues. The scenario in the last line didn't happen so not sure if that's relevant. One of the potential issues could arise if the estate value came to over 615k (3 x 225 - 60) where the tax avoidance issue might play unless the 60k is included in the Capital Acquisition. My own recent advice received, is that it does have to be included.

Bepolite · 09-12-2013 9:09pm

Do any issues of donatio mortis causa arise here?

rebelden · 09-12-2013 9:14pm

Bepolite wrote: »

Do any issues of donatio mortis causa arise here?

What's that?

Bepolite · 09-12-2013 9:15pm

rebelden wrote: »

What's that?

A gift in contemplation of death. I might be barking up the wrong tree, it might have to be real property.

rebelden · 09-12-2013 9:28pm

In any normal set of circumstances, the last thing anyone should want is the account frozen.

Unfortunately, the inheritance/gift from parent(s) threshold is (1) for all such windfalls added together (2) much lower than it used to be (i.e. for a child it's now €225k, down from €543k in early 2009).

So by that the site(200,000) plus some other monies received three yrs ago from father passing and any future monies from my mother grant of probate must be under 225,000 threshold to avoid paying tax.

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 9:33pm

rebelden wrote: »

So by that the site(200,000) plus some other monies received three yrs ago from father passing and any future monies from my mother grant of probate must be under 225,000 threshold to avoid paying tax.

Per individual, yes, as I read the rules.

Who valued the site at €200k? And when? Have you sold it on at that price?

rebelden · 09-12-2013 9:41pm

HansHolzel wrote: »

Per individual, yes, as I read the rules.

Who valued the site at €200k? And when? Have you sold it on at that price?

Not exactly sure but Auctioneer valued the site i say five to six years ago. Never sold the site currently building a house on it. Site gifted to me by parents then. Subseqently received by probate 25k three years ago when father passed away.

Victor · 09-12-2013 9:51pm

coylemj wrote: »

If someone gave me a cheque, I cashed it and the person was hit by a bus that evening, are you saying I would need to consult a solicitor?

I am sure there might be enquiries.

rebelden wrote: »

In any normal set of circumstances, the last thing anyone should want is the account frozen.

But the account is owned by the deceased. While, sure, leaving a family with what might be a severe cash flow problem isn't desirable, neither is improper dissipation of the estate.

homewardbound11 · 09-12-2013 9:53pm

Hi,
Surly you can recieve an inheritance or gift twice without being taxed.

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 9:56pm

Victor wrote: »

I am sure there might be enquiries.

Sorry, that's absurd.

Getting hit by a bus and then having one of my cheques cashed would attract attention.

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 9:57pm

homewardbound11 wrote: »

Hi,
Surly you can recieve an inheritance or gift twice without being taxed.

It's cumulative. Say your mother leaves you cash/property worth €124k and then later your father leaves you €100k. You are still €1k under the €225k tax threshold.

rebelden · 09-12-2013 10:02pm

Looks like i going to be paying tax so. Could I refuse to except a gift and leave it to my other two sisters?

HansHolzel · 09-12-2013 10:10pm

In the absence of a will, the law divides things up equally and even if you don't accept some of your share of the estate (which you can do) the tax will still have to be paid by somebody.

I know this from personal experience, that's all.

Withdrawing monies prior to mothers death

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