Over training

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 12:08pm #1

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure i have got myself into an over trained state, i have pretty much all of the symptoms, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, bit depressed for no reason, thirsty all the time, have had a sore throat for the past 3 weeks and other niggles which i can't seem to shake. So i'm 99% sure i've over trained, plus i did a mountain of training in October and November.

My question is how long should i take off to recovery and what should i be doing to actively help recovery?

Thanks in advance

Ole Rodrigo · 01-12-2014 12:13pm

I'd buy a new bike immediately.

EmcD123 · 01-12-2014 12:29pm

From my experience its not that you've overtrained but you've under recovered.
Foam roll,stretching, going for some walks, eating plenty of food. And regularly icing any musclepains i have always works for me.

And then get back into it easily, and making sure to get enough rest in from now on.
But thats just me. Sometimes its better just to take a step back for a week or two if youre hitting that phase where you're grumpy and depressed about training and then after a week or two you'll find the love of it will come back

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 12:33pm

Ok Cheers, i'll give that a go.

Beasty · 01-12-2014 12:38pm

How much time have you been spending on the bike and how does this compare, both time- and intensity - wise to what you were doing previously?

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 12:46pm

To be honesty i've been doing pretty much the same as i have been doing all summer during the racing season about 10-12 hours per week, i'm not doing as much intesity as the summer just zone 1 and 2 stuff with a few intervals every now and then. I think the big difference between the summer and now is the turbo, a 2 hour session on the turbo just feels like double the effort of a 2 hour session on the road even if it was just an easy turbo session.

nak · 01-12-2014 12:52pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

To be honesty i've been doing pretty much the same as i have been doing all summer during the racing season about 10-12 hours per week, i'm not doing as much intesity as the summer just zone 1 and 2 stuff with a few intervals every now and then. I think the big difference between the summer and now is the turbo, a 2 hour session on the turbo just feels like double the effort of a 2 hour session on the road even if it was just an easy turbo session.

2 hours on the turbo if after work is quite a bit.

Did you take a break from training after race season?

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 12:58pm

I did yeah i took a 3 week break. Yeah i think i'm going to limit the turbo sessions to 1h 30 max. The 2 hour session usually has about 20-30 minutes of tempo stuff, after that you'd be fit for nothing, not to mention the amount of sweat you loose during it.

dragratchet · 01-12-2014 1:01pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

a 2 hour session on the turbo just feels like double the effort of a 2 hour session on the road even if it was just an easy turbo session.

a solid 60 mins on the turbo should be regarded as about 90 on the road when you account for free-wheeling etc on the latter. 2 hours turbo'ing is quite a lot.

yop · 01-12-2014 1:07pm

Think I'm the same as you OP, only when I read your symptoms I think it might stupidly be overtraining

Though I had most of the year off with a back operation, so not sure how that equates.

Maybe at this time of the year the body needs recovery and is more open to flu/cold/infection or whatever is gone.

Beasty · 01-12-2014 1:17pm

yop wrote: »

Though I had most of the year off with a back operation, so not sure how that equates.

This time last year I would have been doing 8-10 hours a week. I've been recovering for the past 9 months or so though, and am now doing 4+ hours, occasionally 6 or so. My aim is to be back to 8-10 by the end of January, although within that there will be easy weeks - maybe 6 hours but without major effort. It's definitely a matter of building up. I am no-where near as fit as I was last year, but I reckon by pacing myself back to fitness hopefully I'll be at a reasonable level come next March

ford2600 · 01-12-2014 1:21pm

Rest more, eat well and try to get sleep right.

Sleep being the most important, I think. No tv, labtop, phone 30 mins before bed, try ZMA supposed to be excellent in aiding repair during deep sleep. If your waking up a lot your probably not getting your deep sleep, which is the important bit for muscle repair.
Adequate protein also.

Leave the bike alone for a week, walk, swim stretch etc

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 1:23pm

ok i'll take all of that on board

RobFowl · 01-12-2014 1:24pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

To be honesty i've been doing pretty much the same as i have been doing all summer during the racing season about 10-12 hours per week, i'm not doing as much intesity as the summer just zone 1 and 2 stuff with a few intervals every now and then. I think the big difference between the summer and now is the turbo, a 2 hour session on the turbo just feels like double the effort of a 2 hour session on the road even if it was just an easy turbo session.

10-12hours a week is a hell of a lot for someone who is working or studying full time.
Prper diet (especially eating within 1/2 hour of a session) and getting at least 8 hours sleep a night is essential to maintain that load.
I'd personally look at reducing the duration and getting a coach to try to looks at substituting quantity for quality .....

Leroy42 · 01-12-2014 1:29pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure i have got myself into an over trained state, i have pretty much all of the symptoms, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, bit depressed for no reason, thirsty all the time, have had a sore throat for the past 3 weeks and other niggles which i can't seem to shake. So i'm 99% sure i've over trained, plus i did a mountain of training in October and November.

My question is how long should i take off to recovery and what should i be doing to actively help recovery?

Thanks in advance

There is no simple answer, but your body is telling you you are pushing too hard and it needs a rest.

My first thing to hit on the head would be the 2 hour turbo. Not only from the physical point of view, but mentally that is very hard to maintain. Sometimes you just need to chill out a bit.

When will you know you're ready to come back?...in my experience you'll know. You'll look forward to getting back on board, rather than the dread of another session. Maybe give all cycling related topics a miss for a few days. It really can become an overwhelming obsession, from training, to eating, to training plans etc (even dare I say it being on here).

Maybe just take a break, lie in on Sunday, head out for a few pints, or cinema or whatever floats your boat on Saturday. Forget about HR, Watts, diet, weight etc for a few days.

IMO its more the mental side that is the impact of overtraining rather than your body shutting down. Another way to get around this is you don't want to stop altogether (a few days/weeks actually won't make too much difference at this stage) is to head off on new routes/take the bike offroad through a park or whatever. Change of scenery really.

tailendcharlie · 01-12-2014 1:33pm

Cheers there's some great advice in there, Thanks

yop · 01-12-2014 1:44pm

Beasty wrote: »

This time last year I would have been doing 8-10 hours a week. I've been recovering for the past 9 months or so though, and am now doing 4+ hours, occasionally 6 or so. My aim is to be back to 8-10 by the end of January, although within that there will be easy weeks - maybe 6 hours but without major effort. It's definitely a matter of building up. I am no-where near as fit as I was last year, but I reckon by pacing myself back to fitness hopefully I'll be at a reasonable level come next March

Thats the key isn't it, something I haven't been doing! I was at a good level before I started having these issues and just horsed into it!

I am probably doing 3 hours road, 5 hours turbo ( a back to back 1 hour club session in here), 2 or 3 hours core/weights and 2 or 3 thirty five min runs, so when I write it down and look at it then ya its probably daft.
Add to that 2 young kids who seem to strategically rotate waking at night, a 6am start in the morning for work and then trying to lose weight... epic fail all around eh!

Though when your stubborn its hard to switch off

ZiabR · 01-12-2014 1:51pm

Go an buy yourself some Epsom Salts from Boots. Very cheap and they are just unreal for muscle pain and recovery. I didn't believe in them but put them into a warm bath and they work!

kumate_champ07 · 01-12-2014 1:59pm

under recovering. sore throat is normal with this weather. how good is your diet?

any work/family related stress? maybe you just miss summer, its always a downer when race season ends and dark grey Irish winter sets in.

outfox · 01-12-2014 2:31pm

I'm not training anything like you guys are, so I'm probably not qualified to comment. But one thing I found good was to remove the computer from the winter bike for a while. The spins were suddenly so much more enjoyable. Back to basics - fresh air and view, and noise from the tyres on the road.

MB Lacey · 01-12-2014 2:44pm

Beasty wrote: »

This time last year I would have been doing 8-10 hours a week. I've been recovering for the past 9 months or so though, and am now doing 4+ hours, occasionally 6 or so. My aim is to be back to 8-10 by the end of January, although within that there will be easy weeks - maybe 6 hours but without major effort. It's definitely a matter of building up. I am no-where near as fit as I was last year, but I reckon by pacing myself back to fitness hopefully I'll be at a reasonable level come next March

Out of interest Beasty, did you have your physio schedule you a rehab training plan or did you just base it on your own experience?
(I'm unsuccessfully coming back from injury because I push myself too much every single time I'm the slightest bit better).
This can be started as another topic if you feel like we're going off OP's post, but I think rehab training ties into overtraining in that you've got to be careful and limit yourself not to do too much.

Beasty · 01-12-2014 2:57pm

MB Lacey wrote: »

Out of interest Beasty, did you have your physio schedule you a rehab training plan or did you just base it on your own experience?
(I'm unsuccessfully coming back from injury because I push myself too much every single time I'm the slightest bit better).
This can be started as another topic if you feel like we're going off OP's post, but I think rehab training ties into overtraining in that you've got to be careful and limit yourself not to do too much.

Onto my 3rd physio now. First one dealt mainly with the wrist and elbow and a bit on the neck, the 2nd the neck and shoulder - had to be a different one to get it under the Aviva back-up programme, and recently I've been going to one ahead of starting Pilates in January. Main recent complaints have been the back/sciatica and shoulder.

None of them have been "prescribing" any cycling but all have encouraged it as part of my overall rehab. I have been working with a coach, but it is very much played by ear, as all sorts of things affect me both physically and mentally at present. I always knew it would not be a straight-line recovery, and some weeks it feels like I'm suffering a bit of a set-back. However what I do seem very good at is spotting the symptoms and planning/cutting back accordingly. In some ways I am probably way ahead of where I could possibly have expected, but still way behind where I think I could be! I guess it's a "happy balance" but very much based on my own feelings about the state I am in

Beasty · 01-12-2014 3:36pm

Just to add a bit more - back in July I thought I was going great guns - probably getting on for 5-6 hours a week. However that was when I wasn't really focussed on work and indeed other priorities. Getting the balance right has been the key to me. I'm very focussed on work at present and have a young family to think about (and indeed ferry around particularly at the weekend). I also need lots of rest. My body is still recovering but my brain in particular is taking a lot of energy repairing itself.

Having said all of that the last few weeks I feel as if I've made a breakthrough, and now feel as if I'm almost back to the old self. I know there is still some way to go before I finally get there, but I am pushing the boundaries at present - each week I'll push up the power curve a bit more. Sprinting-wise I'm pretty much back to where I was before the crash. Endurance-wise I am still quite a way off - probably 10-20% in terms of power, but I am slowly narrowing the gap. Who knows, maybe this gradual build-up will actually help as I'm not currently overdoing it and feel I still have a lot of capacity to build further.

MB Lacey · 01-12-2014 3:38pm

That sounds to me like you're disciplined and in tune with what your mind and body are needing and it's serving you well.
Anyway - for danger of veering thread completely OT I'll leave it at that, amybe start a thread another time on rehab.
Thanks for your reply (and great you're doing so well, even though it's been a very long process)

petethedrummer · 01-12-2014 5:54pm

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/06/how-to-know-with-laser-like-accuracy-if-your-body-is-truly-recovered-and-ready-to-train/
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/06/what-is-under-recovery/

12 sprocket · 01-12-2014 6:29pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure i have got myself into an over trained state, i have pretty much all of the symptoms, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, bit depressed for no reason, thirsty all the time, have had a sore throat for the past 3 weeks and other niggles which i can't seem to shake. So i'm 99% sure i've over trained, plus i did a mountain of training in October and November.

My question is how long should i take off to recovery and what should i be doing to actively help recovery?

Thanks in advance

GET CORRECT DIAGNOSIS
If its going on that long eliminate the medical end first, it may or may not be overtraining or there could be a throat infection that needs antibiotics. At least get some medical advice would be recommended by most good coaches.

12 sprocket · 01-12-2014 6:32pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

under recovering. sore throat is normal with this weather. how good is your diet?

any work/family related stress? maybe you just miss summer, its always a downer when race season ends and dark grey Irish winter sets in.

Sore throats are not normal with this weather..surely if that was the case the whole population would have them..

killalanerr · 01-12-2014 7:13pm

Rest rest and rest . It's all about listing to your body . But the hard part for a motivated atleate is to act on what you are hearing . We all do it its a fine balance .op you didn't have to come on here to know you were doing a bit to much you knew that yourself . Ajust and over come and you will be back to yourself in no time

ROK ON · 01-12-2014 9:03pm

A three week break!!!

Nuts.

IMHO that is too short a break. I can think of very few other sports where the off-season is three weeks. I would give it at least twice that. Mentally you need a break as much as physically.
I am not saying don't cycle at all, maybe commute on the bike taking it easy.
10-12 hours this time of year - are you training for the Ras?

Hi Ho · 01-12-2014 9:38pm

ror_74 wrote: »

I'd buy a new bike immediately.

No, this won't help.
"how long should i take off to recovery" - as long as it takes I'd suggest.
You have identified all the symptoms so knock things back until they resolve. That doesn't mean stopping altogether, but reducing things significantly, especially intensity.
It sounds like you could do with a mental break also.
When you do get your form back be sure to take recovery periods every third or fourth week to prevent yourself from digging yourself into a similar fatigue hole again.

Beasty · 01-12-2014 9:45pm

Hi Ho wrote: »

No, this won't help.

I suspect the "tongue in cheek" smiley was missing from that comment;)

tailendcharlie · 02-12-2014 10:15am

Hi Ho wrote: »

No, this won't help.
"how long should i take off to recovery" - as long as it takes I'd suggest.
You have identified all the symptoms so knock things back until they resolve. That doesn't mean stopping altogether, but reducing things significantly, especially intensity.
It sounds like you could do with a mental break also.
When you do get your form back be sure to take recovery periods every third or fourth week to prevent yourself from digging yourself into a similar fatigue hole again.

Yeah i think i simply didn't have enough recovery weeks, no point in training hard unless you have recovery weeks, over training was bound to happen!!!

ROK ON wrote: »

A three week break!!!

Nuts.

IMHO that is too short a break. I can think of very few other sports where the off-season is three weeks. I would give it at least twice that. Mentally you need a break as much as physically.
I am not saying don't cycle at all, maybe commute on the bike taking it easy.
10-12 hours this time of year - are you training for the Ras?

I was toying with the idea of the ras but i think i'm just going to leave it off till next year or the year after and just enjoy my racing this year, Ras training is just mental.

el tel · 02-12-2014 1:01pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure i have got myself into an over trained state, i have pretty much all of the symptoms, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, bit depressed for no reason, thirsty all the time, have had a sore throat for the past 3 weeks and other niggles which i can't seem to shake. So i'm 99% sure i've over trained, plus i did a mountain of training in October and November.

My question is how long should i take off to recovery and what should i be doing to actively help recovery?

Thanks in advance

What are you training for?

tailendcharlie · 02-12-2014 1:02pm

Next years road racing

wav1 · 02-12-2014 6:42pm

a couple of weeks visiting the chipper and pub regularly will have you as right as rain and raring to go again..taking the p..s I know but seriously when you are f....d from racing and training its the way to go

12 sprocket · 02-12-2014 9:01pm

tailendcharlie wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure i have got myself into an over trained state, i have pretty much all of the symptoms, trouble sleeping, muscle pain, bit depressed for no reason, thirsty all the time, have had a sore throat for the past 3 weeks and other niggles which i can't seem to shake. So i'm 99% sure i've over trained, plus i did a mountain of training in October and November.

My question is how long should i take off to recovery and what should i be doing to actively help recovery?

Thanks in advance

I hate to repeat myself again and sorry if its a bit annoying but if your symptoms are not clearing up you should eliminate any medical causes rather than think its just overtraining (which it may well be) see a sports doctor preferably.. then if you get the go ahead to train you can train away and get better. As I said in an earlier post any coach worth his salt would recommend a visit to a doc by you for correct diagnosis

richieg · 03-12-2014 12:26pm

Wow 2 hour sessions on a turbo are pretty serious. I mainly follow trainer road 60 and 90 min sessions of more interval work (quality vs quantity) supported by a 3-4 hour low effort ride on Saturday or Sunday.
I'd be interested to know what time people are putting in for a week as someone who moved to a3 last year and trying to balance training with family. I am working of average of 7-8 hours per week. Too much? Other half thinks so!!!

tailendcharlie · 03-12-2014 12:44pm

richieg wrote: »

Wow 2 hour sessions on a turbo are pretty serious. I mainly follow trainer road 60 and 90 min sessions of more interval work (quality vs quantity) supported by a 3-4 hour low effort ride on Saturday or Sunday.
I'd be interested to know what time people are putting in for a week as someone who moved to a3 last year and trying to balance training with family. I am working of average of 7-8 hours per week. Too much? Other half thinks so!!!

Its hard to know, you'll get the lads that just do hours and hours of training because they don't have many commitments and they do well on that, but then you get the lads with families who seem to be able to do well on a more quality v quantity approach.

Like if quantity was all it took then ironman athletes would be winning all triathlons, right? so there has to be some balance point where you can get away with less time and still get the same results. basically getting rid of the junk miles.

Up to this point i was doing between 9 and half hours to 12 hour with 15 and half hours being the biggest week which i wasn't able to manage in the end as i was just knackered. I was able to manage that sort of big week during the summer, but since the winter has come and the turbo came out it has just become so much more taxing on the mind and body.

rigal · 03-12-2014 3:31pm

Just my 2cents. All very subjective I know...

I've been a3 for two seasons now. Found a4 easy but have struggled at times to finish the tougher races in a3 near the pointy end. Last season i was competitive (I.e close to, or in, the points) maybe two or three times. I raced pretty much every weekend from feb to August and consider myself a very average (and honest!

a3 rider.

I do 8-10hrs a week during the winter. 1hr turbo Tues/Thursday, 4hr club spin on Sat and 2-3hrs in a small group or on my own Sunday. I'll also do 30mins if core on Monday and Wednesday - I've found this to be of great benefit.

I think if you are talented and are looking to move to a2 10-14hrs is okay. But if you're not competitive doing all those Hours you need to sit down and look at things more closely. Maybe with a coach.

If you're tired, irritable, run down etc ease off. Replace the turbo with a walk or gym for a week or two. Try to keep the weekly long spin at low intensity going though.

RockWerchter · 03-12-2014 4:24pm

Even if you're training for the Ras that's quite a high volume of training for this time of the year. Training is about progress and slowly building. If you can't manage 15 hours now, then that's you're max, (and enough to do the ras if you train and recover well) but you have to build up to your max not just hit it and not progress.

Over training

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