20% personal tax for SARP executives - "fair"?

Permabear wrote: »

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You mean Irish people aren't allowed be members of the SARP class? Is there a SARP in California that Irish citizens get to avail of?

Permabear wrote: »

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If you don't want to fully participate in Irish society and pay your dues, do we really want you here?

If your political views are such, you (and those you will be voting for in GE 2016) will have a lot of political explaining to do to the ordinary workers who are breaking their backs to keep up with the mortgage repayments so they give their children a half-decent chance.

Permabear wrote: »

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You (and those you'll be voting for) have a lot of people to explain all this to.

If Ireland's long term economic strategy is to continue to be an aircraft carrier for US multinationals (at any cost), then I hope and pray it keeps going for them.

How do Noonan/Kenny intend to mitigate risks such as:
- A republican president in the US who doesn't care that Enda Kenny would like to pose for a photo at the White House on St Patrick's Day.
- An increasingly frustrated EU who are sick of Ireland's cute-hoor tax regime, lack of transparency and reputation for being a tax haven (sorry, "low tax economy"...)
- A UK government who has to deal with Ireland poaching "patent box" companies by rolling their own "innovation box" tax breaks that any company with even the most tentative "innovation" criteria can avail of?

Irishmen and women have built up Ireland's reputation for hard work, honesty and a friendly working rapport over decades, if not centuries. Irish people were liked the world over. This reputation was built from sweat, tears (and sometimes blood). Banana republic style laws are damaging to our reputation as a serious country who contributes to the global economy. There was a lot of good will shown to the Irish from all over the world over the years: after the conflict, membership of the EU and peace with Britain, money was pumped into the country (EU structural funds and US multinational investment). Ireland flourished and rapidly became a first world economy after decades of mismanagement of what was essentially an agricultural economy. No sooner were the stabilisers were off and we had a property bust and banking system collapse. The good will is gone now. Nobody's interested in cap-in-hand Irish government officials in Washington/Brussels/London anymore. We're supposed to be big boys now. If FG/Labour strategy is to try and re-live the good old days, then I hope and pray it goes well for them.

Permabear wrote: »

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Long-winded, complicating excusing won't wash with the man who does an honest week's work, pays his way, rears his family and pays his mortgage on time every month. He should go work for a multinational, work 80 hours and never see his kids, right? Will he be able to pay his mortgage in 5 years when the plant has moved to Taiwan?

The political decision to introduce SARP for people who (by definition) haven't contributed anything to Ireland in the previous 5 years comes with political consequences.

You, an Irish immigrant in the USA, won't have to deal with the consequences of pre-retirement Irish politicians making blatant exceptions for multinationals who like to throw their weight around. You also won't have to live in a country with Sinn Fein in power - I might have to join you in America then. Though I won't be expecting a SARP package to bring me to California - I would expect to have start again and pay my taxes - like everyone else.

Permabear wrote: »

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When you say "just" 31 people availed of SARP "last year", what end-of-tax-year are you referring to? Do you actually have the 2013 figures yourself? I don't. However a little birdie has filled me in on the kind of tax gymnastics that's currently going on.

Advanced countries like Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc. compete by offering innovative products and services that nobody else can offer. They don't need to participate in the race to the bottom of begging the world's largest advertising company to come to them in exchange for a 2% corporate tax rate and bus loads of imported labour (who also happen to rent flats). If you're going to pump your population with imported "talent" (and welfare tourists), there needs to be a dividend - infrastructure and services do not come "free". Private citizens (an increasing number of whom have no estate) aren't an unlimited source of revenue for government.

I can see where you're coming from with your "executive talent" rationale. However, I believe your rationale to be flawed and blinkered, is based purely on economics, and fails to take into account the democratic process where politicians are held to account for their decisions. As well as being a low tax economy, Ireland is also a republic where political leaders face re-election on a regular basis.

Anyway, I'm not the person you (an opinionated Irishman living in America) need to be explaining the benefits to society of imported "executive talent" to.

Irish Times article you refer to isn't clear about what year "just" 31 SARP executives got personal tax breaks. I can't see how they're referring to anything other than the 2011 figures.

Artists' exemption another tax anomoly that should go IMO. SARP is infinitely more hurtful to those who fully pay their way, because there is no income limit for SARP execs - Aosdana members can only earn €50k tax free.

conorh91 wrote: »

No.

Michael Noonan's figures refer to "new" SARP.

"New" SARP commenced in early 2012.

The figures he produced were deduced from specific SARP returns. They have nothing to do with self-employed/ company director tax returns.

Also, "new" SARP is not dramatically different from the "old" SARP, and the changes that arose from Budget 2012 would not justify an increase from eleven executives per year (on average) rising to your claim of "thousands" of executives per year.

That is not a runner. No matter what the "little birds" are telling you.

So, you're talking about an absolutely tiny minority of individuals, all of whom are associated with generating increased employment, which is the reason this programme exists.

Your posts demonstrate a dogged unwillingness to recognize the benefits of an increase in PAYE employment, contrasted against your gross overestimation of the numbers taking up SARP.

You can't have it both ways. It would be fantastic if there were thousands of new SARP-eligible employers arriving into Ireland, because the employment they would bring would make a huge dent in out unemployment statistics.

Unfortunately for the Irish economy, and for your thread, the evidence indicates that your figures are completely wrong.

The point of this discussion is "fairness".

You can argue the benefits of "executive talent" and try explaining that to the electrician down in the pub till the cows come home.

Permabear wrote: »

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Said "talented executives" would pressurise the Irish government to issue visas to a load of Indian electricians thereby putting him out of a job. Tis a global economy we're in after all...