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20% personal tax for SARP executives - "fair"?
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25-10-2014 11:53am#1People are giving out about Irish Water spending €420k on cars. At least they pay BIK on that. Yet SARP executives don't pay any BIK on their cars. They also get to claim back all tax paid on flights and private school fees and only pay 20% personal income tax. 1000s of SARP execs live in Ireland at the moment. Michael Noonan signed off on the creation of a new class of citizen, but how does Michael Noonan explain this to his constituents in Limerick? Hope they don't understand what SARP means? Hope they forget what the idea of a republic is?
The way the Irish nation is organised (no, it's not an unplanned, disorganised mess...), anyone who works hard at school, works hard at college and goes out to do an honest day's work is a mug. You'll end up paying huge rent which means you can't save for your own place, you'll end up doing all the donkey work so those parachuted in above you can take all the credit and you'll end up paying 50% of your modest income to fund the Big Ideas of Big Government. It doesn't matter that you have no savings for retirement or haven't got your own home - Big Government and the vulnerable (millionaire OAPs and dole lifers) take priority. People whose first instinct is to "to the right thing" get eaten up very quickly in contemporary Irish society - junior doctors who work 80 hour weeks for 35k, how many 30 year-olds do you know who are still "training" to be accountants/solicitors/barristers/etc. and are earning 25k? How do ordinary workers manage to put a roof over their head? That's right, they don't - the State does.
The strategy for a lot of 30 year-olds I know is: 1) get a job in government and 2) stay there. Go earn 10k more (5k after tax) working for a US multinational, sure, but will your job be there in 5 years' time? At the request of any of the top 40 multinational companies (who account for 2/3rds of all Irish exports), the Irish State will hand out passports to whoever (no matter what country they're from) if their skills are in demand - you won't be in a position to benefit from any labour shortage - you will be replaced for complaining or told to work harder so you can "compete". How can you plan a family based on a high pressure job with long hours and you're expected to carry a blackberry at weekends? Your wife works too, right? What happens when someone in America decides the Ireland project is over? What tech companies hire 40 year-olds these days? Try get a 9-5 job in a quango? It will be too late then. Everyone will be trying to withdraw their money from the bank at the same time.
As far as working in Ireland in 2014 is concerned (as I see it), we have a three tier labour force:
a) those who work and are financially independent (or will be financially independent)
b) those who work and have no hope of achieving financial independence
c) those who don't work and have no hope of achieving financial independence
Category a) is shrinking rapidly (many are moving out of the labour force and onto the pension payroll), category b) is expanding rapidly (the deluded working poor) and category c) is expanding linearly (no hope school leavers, single mother teenagers, newly arrived immigrants, etc.). The way I see it, the mugs are those in b) category. Those in category c) have kids and grandkids to look after them.
I was on the Arran Islands over the summer - everything is State funded over there - piers, landing strips, schools, surguries, tourist offices, etc. Apart from a few modestly wealthy Germans who like the isolation, nobody makes any money doing anything other than serving the state. Ireland is like a bigger version of the Arran Islands as far as Europe are concerned. The beal bocht act of Irish politicians cap in hand over Brussels is becoming tiresome. Noonan was going on about the "deal" he was going to get a couple of weeks ago, but was laughed back to Ireland on his 25 year-old tin can jet.
How does one go about becoming a member of the SARP class?
Is there any hope for those who do the right thing in Ireland?Tagged:0
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The lower tax rate for executives to make Ireland more appealing to MNCs. The Netherlands gives tax breaks to executives for MNCs there. It would be hard to convince an executive to move to Ireland from the US, when the marginal tax rate is 52% here. They are also going to have to pay for private health insurance(they wont want to use a public hospital). The lower tax rate is make Ireland more attractive. Its not going to cause a massive drop in tax revenue, but could bring more MNCs to Ireland or at least keep some present here at the moment.
Lets be honest and realise a huge amount of Irish people pay no income tax and they should at least pay some PRSI. Next year you can earn €12,000 without pay a cent in USC, PAYE or even PRSI. Where as the executive from America on €350,000 a year, gets only €179,616.00 after tax. But yet gets the same pension and unemployment benefits as the person who earns €12,000 a year. Everyone should at least pay some PRSI.
But someone is going to have to pay for the all the handouts in Ireland. To be the most unfair tax policy is the tax credits for OAPs over 70. Its morally wrong for a Government to place higher tax burden on a young person, who probably has a mortgage and children. But yet allows an OAP with a medical card, the ability to earn more and pay less tax. To me this is far greater tax inequality than a tax scheme such as executive breaks(which probably will be impossible to obtain), along with the abolished PRSI ceiling and tax self -employed people more(without them getting any greater benefits)0 -
Do you have any evidence is support of that figure? I understood there to be a far smaller number of people availing of SARP. Like maybe 50.1000s of SARP execs live in Ireland at the moment.
Plenty. And they're on far less than 35k.how many 30 year-olds do you know who are still "training" to be accountants/solicitors/barristers/etc.
I agree with you that the government does not provide sufficient initiative for indigenous industry. In fact, government appears to actively stand in the way of anyone who does not seek to join the payroll of the State. But I think criticism of SARP is a little misdirected, unless your "thousands" figure is correct.0 -
The lower tax rate for executives to make Ireland more appealing to MNCs. The Netherlands gives tax breaks to executives for MNCs there. It would be hard to convince an executive to move to Ireland from the US, when the marginal tax rate is 52% here. They are also going to have to pay for private health insurance(they wont want to use a public hospital). The lower tax rate is make Ireland more attractive. Its not going to cause a massive drop in tax revenue, but could bring more MNCs to Ireland or at least keep some present here at the moment.
Lets be honest and realise a huge amount of Irish people pay no income tax and they should at least pay some PRSI. Next year you can earn €12,000 without pay a cent in USC, PAYE or even PRSI. Where as the executive from America on €350,000 a year, gets only €179,616.00 after tax. But yet gets the same pension and unemployment benefits as the person who earns €12,000 a year. Everyone should at least pay some PRSI.
But someone is going to have to pay for the all the handouts in Ireland. To be the most unfair tax policy is the tax credits for OAPs over 70. Its morally wrong for a Government to place higher tax burden on a young person, who probably has a mortgage and children. But yet allows an OAP with a medical card, the ability to earn more and pay less tax. To me this is far greater tax inequality than a tax scheme such as executive breaks(which probably will be impossible to obtain), along with the abolished PRSI ceiling and tax self -employed people more(without them getting any greater benefits)
I've nothing against people earning high salaries and acquiring wealth.
I do however have issue with a state that believes SARP execs living here don't avail of the same privileges as someone on 50k.
Why should I pay 50% tax when it's patently an unjust tax? It's your duty (not only as a citizen, but also as a human) to disobey unjust laws. I filed my tax return last week, and when I read about SARP; it makes my stomach churn. Revenue were in to my bank account yesterday and took a big chunk of my earnings.
According to your logic those on 20k should pay 55% tax and the "wealth generators" (i.e. the bankers who think ordinary workers should pay for their bad decisions) should only pay 20% tax. Paying for bank bailouts is only for those Irish passport holders who don't have the means to be able to straddle international tax boundaries?
Ireland is utterly dependent on a handful of multinationals - the multinationals know this and swing their weight around for their benefit. Make your education system more market-focussed or we'll leave, issue passports to cheap engineers from outside the EU or we'll leave, charge us 2% tax or we'll leave, let our execs on €1m only pay 200k tax, etc. Ireland is smaller than Apple. An Apple/Google/Intel/Facebook executive can phone the Minister for Finance any time they want - they would get laughed off the phone by the PR department in any other country.0 -
Do you have any evidence is support of that figure? I understood there to be a far smaller number of people availing of SARP. Like maybe 50.
Oh, so that's OK then.
Where are you getting your figures from? Do you think Revenue will be publishing statistics any time soon? lol.
Noonan put the foot down on SARP with budget 2015 - there was a €500k limit on earnings. Now it's unlimited. That's an absolute pi$$ take.0 -
I honestly have no idea how you took that ''people on 20k should pay 55% tax'' from his post.
As conor pointed about above, there are no ''1000s of executives on SARP'' as you put it, the figure is less than 100 last I heard. The reason behind SARP is not to let these executives off lightly but to draw them to Ireland and hopefully they will bring more investment and job growth with them. Whether you want to believe it or not, we live in a very competitive international environment.
Now as for the argument that we are overly dependent on multinationals, I take that point, but I don't think the fix for that is to give less resources to attracting multinationals, rather use more resources to promote entrepreneurship in this country. Enterprise Ireland do a reasonably good job from what I see but more could always be done.0 -
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Where are you getting your figures from? Do you think Revenue will be publishing statistics any time soon? lol.
From figures here, from May 2013
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2013052100066
To date, 6 people had qualified for SARP.
The number of people who had taken up the pre-SARP analogue was less than 50 in total during 3 years.
Can you tell me the source you took the "thousands" claim from? Because there's no way you just made that up, surely.0 -
You won't get much in Dublin for 35k (unless bank of mum and dad with their million euro gaff in South Dublin and their millionaire's defined benefit pension are close by). The amount of people queuing up do do these never-ending "training" jobs that still don't realise they're going to be a *lot* poorer than their parents. The fees for some of these exams are ridiculous - Kings Inns/Blackhall Place/Chartered Accountants Ireland must be laughing all the way to the bank (they are!). Sons/daughters of Celtic Tiger suburban property owners + 3rd level degrees + ambition = big business.Plenty. And they're on far less than 35k.I agree with you that the government does not provide sufficient initiative for indigenous industry. In fact, government appears to actively stand in the way of anyone who does not seek to join the payroll of the State. But I think criticism of SARP is a little misdirected, unless your "thousands" figure is correct.
Apart from agriculture and tourism, our indigenous industry is pathetic. Without multinationals, our exports would drop to 10% of what they are. Without just 40 companies, our exports would just be 33% of what they are. We are in desperate need to create indigenous companies to pay for the pensions of retired public sector workers (the pensions bill is now bigger than the entire budget of the Dept. of Social Protection - and it's bigger, not smaller the liability is going to get).
Don't worry, the folks who go to the Dublin Web Summit (all with 2.1's from Trinity, no less) will save us. (but only if you have €1500 for a ticket)0 -
You're just ranting at this stage. I have no idea what that spiel about professional exams and Dublin Web Summit has to do with the OP or my response to it.You won't get much in Dublin for 35k (unless bank of mum and dad with their million euro gaff in South Dublin and their millionaire's defined benefit pension are close by). The amount of people queuing up do do these never-ending "training" jobs that still don't realise they're going to be a *lot* poorer than their parents. The fees for some of these exams are ridiculous - Kings Inns/Blackhall Place/Chartered Accountants Ireland must be laughing all the way to the bank (they are!). Sons/daughters of Celtic Tiger suburban property owners + 3rd level degrees + ambition = big business.
Apart from agriculture and tourism, our indigenous industry is pathetic. Without multinationals, our exports would drop to 10% of what they are. Without just 40 companies, our exports would just be 33% of what they are. We are in desperate need to create indigenous companies to pay for the pensions of retired public sector workers (the pensions bill is now bigger than the entire budget of the Dept. of Social Protection - and it's bigger, not smaller the liability is going to get).
Don't worry, the folks who go to the Dublin Web Summit (all with 2.1's from Trinity, no less) will save us. (but only if you have €1500 for a ticket)
Are you abandoning the claim of "thousands" of SARP claimants?0 -
From figures here, from May 2013
To date, 6 people had qualified for SARP.
The number of people who had taken up the pre-SARP analogue was less than 50 in total during 3 years.
Can you tell me the source you took the "thousands" claim from? Because there's no way you just made that up, surely.
Let's just say a little insider birdie tells me that this is the case. You can take that whatever way you wish - I'll happily PM further info on the goings on. And besides, why would a politician bother with such a complex tax exception for only a couple of hundred grand? To keep a handful of mid ranking Google executives happy?
The link you quoted referred to old SARP (i.e. 2011 are the most recent figures) - SARP that hasn't taken off to the level it has today. And Noonan put his foot on the accelerator two weeks ago.
At least with bank bailouts, you can argue that the most well off are paying too ("everyone" is paying "their share" proportional to their means). With this SARP stuff, it will cause huge division - the idea of there being a "social contract" and a "fair" taxation system with high quality benefits in Ireland is already in tatters. SARP is the final nail in the coffin.0 -
You're just ranting at this stage. I have no idea what that spiel about professional exams and Dublin Web Summit has to do with the OP or my response to it.
Are you abandoning the claim of "thousands" of SARP claimants?
I suggest you write to the Department of Finance and/or Revenue and ask them for a straight answer to a straight question.
You won't get a straight answer in the Dail. So what makes you think they're going to publish the figures for journalists this side of a GE?0 -
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Yeah, it seems like you have indeed been talking to the birds.
Old SARP attracted 34 claimants over 3 years.
The last available figures for new SARP was 6.
You are making up the "thousands" claim.
You are talking about old SARP figures from 2011. SARP has been changed and upgraded hugely since then. Noonan during budget 1015 announced SARP execs are now allowed unlimited earnings at 20%. It's to maintain Ireland's attractiveness after being told by Europe that the "double Irish" had to go.
Wait for the published figures. You will not see these figures this side of the GE.0 -
No I'm not.You are talking about old SARP figures from 2011.
New SARP commenced in early 2012.
In May 2013, a year and a half later, Michael Noonan stood up in Dail Eireann, and the words that came out of his mouth were "employer returns received to date indicate that there were 6 individuals who qualified for the relief".
Now which part of that is unclear?0 -
No I'm not.
New SARP commenced in early 2012.
In May 2013, a year and a half later, Michael Noonan stood up in Dail Eireann, and the words that came out of his mouth were "employer returns received to date indicate that there were 6 individuals who qualified for the relief".
Now which part of that is unclear?
Sigh.
At least you admit that SARP has now been cranked up massively. We're making progress...
Now, regarding Noonan in 2013... You file your 2012 tax return by October 2013. Therefore, the "most recent figures" would be from 2011. Like you said, new SARP commenced in 2012.
Answer me two questions:
1. Do you agree with the creation of an exclusive class of citizen who doesn't have to pay the same level tax like everyone else yet gets to avail of all the services provided for citizens?
2. Do you think an Irish Government Minister will ever be able to undo SARP? How do you think you can explain to a Google exec that they pay 200k on their €1m salary one year, but when SF/Labour are in power then now must pay €550k? Do you not think Noonan has done huge damage to the Irish economy by putting this risk in place?
All very fine for pre-retirement Noonan to make bad decisions on day and a couple of months later go off into the sunset with a fat pension guaranteed by Paymaster General.0 -
No I'm not.
New SARP commenced in early 2012.
In May 2013, a year and a half later, Michael Noonan stood up in Dail Eireann, and the words that came out of his mouth were "employer returns received to date indicate that there were 6 individuals who qualified for the relief".
Now which part of that is unclear?
Sigh.
At least you admit that SARP has now been cranked up massively. We're making progress...
Now, regarding Noonan in 2013... You file your 2012 tax return by October 2013. Therefore, the "most recent figures" in the Dail on the date you refer to would be from 2011. Like you said, new SARP commenced in 2012.
Answer me two questions:
1. Do you agree with the creation of an exclusive class of citizen who doesn't have to pay the same level tax like everyone else yet gets to avail of all the services provided for citizens?
2. Do you think an Irish Government Minister will ever be able to undo SARP? How do you think you can explain to a Google exec that they pay 200k on their €1m salary one year, but when SF/Labour are in power then now must pay €550k? Do you not think Noonan has done huge damage to the Irish economy by putting this risk in place?
All very fine for pre-retirement Noonan to make bad decisions on day and a couple of months later go off into the sunset with a fat pension guaranteed by Paymaster General.0 -
I've nothing against people earning high salaries and acquiring wealth.
I do however have issue with a state that believes SARP execs living here don't avail of the same privileges as someone on 50k.
Why should I pay 50% tax when it's patently an unjust tax? It's your duty (not only as a citizen, but also as a human) to disobey unjust laws. I filed my tax return last week, and when I read about SARP; it makes my stomach churn. Revenue were in to my bank account yesterday and took a big chunk of my earnings.
According to your logic those on 20k should pay 55% tax and the "wealth generators" (i.e. the bankers who think ordinary workers should pay for their bad decisions) should only pay 20% tax. Paying for bank bailouts is only for those Irish passport holders who don't have the means to be able to straddle international tax boundaries?
Ireland is utterly dependent on a handful of multinationals - the multinationals know this and swing their weight around for their benefit. Make your education system more market-focussed or we'll leave, issue passports to cheap engineers from outside the EU or we'll leave, charge us 2% tax or we'll leave, let our execs on €1m only pay 200k tax, etc. Ireland is smaller than Apple. An Apple/Google/Intel/Facebook executive can phone the Minister for Finance any time they want - they would get laughed off the phone by the PR department in any other country.
You don't pay 50% or 55% on your earnings. Dig out your p60 from last year, add up all the deductions, PAYE, USC and PRSI and check what percentage you actually paid for the year. If it all adds up to 50% then fair play to you as you earn more than the majority of people in this country.
I'm tired of the marginal rate argument trotted out at every opportunity in pretty much every debate to do with finances.0 -
relax carry on wrote: »You don't pay 50% or 55% on your earnings. Dig out your p60 from last year, add up all the deductions, PAYE, USC and PRSI and check what percentage you actually paid for the year. If it all adds up to 50% then fair play to you as you earn more than the majority of people in this country.
I'm tired of the marginal rate argument trotted out at every opportunity in pretty much every debate to do with finances.
The tax I paid last week and every month is my business. You've also missed the point completely - I suggest you start another thread if you don't want to talk about SARP.
How do you explain to consultant doctors (you know, the people who save lives; not sell advertising) on 250k that they must pay 50% tax and BIK on their cars, yet the State allows certain persons to come and go into the country with massive personal tax benefits.
SARP is a toxic ingredient that rips apart the fabric of society. Noonan is an idiot for allowing it - when he's told to jump by Brussels/Google/Intel/Facebook, he asks "how high", like a true Paddy.0 -
The tax I paid last week and every month is my business. You've also missed the point completely - I suggest you start another thread if you don't want to talk about SARP.
How do you explain to consultant doctors (you know, the people who save lives; not sell advertising) on 250k that they must pay 50% tax and BIK on their cars, yet the State allows certain persons to come and go into the country with massive personal tax benefits.
SARP is a toxic ingredient that rips apart the fabric of society. Noonan is an idiot for allowing it - when he's told to jump by Brussels/Google/Intel/Facebook, he asks "how high", like a true Paddy.
You seem to ignore everyone else's point and just listen to your own, we've told you why SARP is there, its not to allow these people to get off lightly, its to attract FDI into Ireland, it is that simple.0 -
You seem to ignore everyone else's point and just listen to your own, we've told you why SARP is there, its not to allow these people to get off lightly, its to attract FDI into Ireland, it is that simple.
Sinn Fein will love the simplicity of it, that's for sure.
Do you think SARP executives don't drive on the same roads, call the police, need ambulances/fire trucks, avail of the protection of the Defence Forces, need to resolve disputes in the courts, etc.?
Paying income tax is only for the mugs, right? Sinn Fein love mugs like you.0 -
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So with SARP the basicpremise is to make more foreign execs move here and spend there money in Ireland creating jobs, previously there was a ceiling of 500,000 of which they paid 20% tax on so they paid 100,000 in tax if they were paid that much, as opposed to not having sarp not having more jobs and not having 100,000 extra to spend on "the same roads, call the police, need ambulances/fire trucks, avail of the protection of the Defence Forces, need to resolve disputes in the courts, etc."Sinn Fein will love the simplicity of it, that's for sure.
Do you think SARP executives don't drive on the same roads, call the police, need ambulances/fire trucks, avail of the protection of the Defence Forces, need to resolve disputes in the courts, etc.?
Paying income tax is only for the mugs, right? Sinn Fein love mugs like you.
Sounds like a great idea to me! And if they attract some other execs on ridiculous salaries of 500,000 plus fantastic better to collect the tax here then let some other country have it.0 -
everdead.ie wrote: »So with SARP the basicpremise is to make more foreign execs move here and spend there money in Ireland creating jobs, previously there was a ceiling of 500,000 of which they paid 20% tax on so they paid 100,000 in tax if they were paid that much, as opposed to not having sarp not having more jobs and not having 100,000 extra to spend on "the same roads, call the police, need ambulances/fire trucks, avail of the protection of the Defence Forces, need to resolve disputes in the courts, etc."
Sounds like a great idea to me! And if they attract some other execs on ridiculous salaries of 500,000 plus fantastic better to collect the tax here then let some other country have it.
That's fine. Political views such as this are not without consequence. Sinn Fein love cheerleaders like you.
Would you agree with a maximum personal tax contribution? For example, a €100k limit? After that you keep everything you earn? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this scenario and would be open to debating it.
However, you can't have it both ways - you either have a progressive income tax system or you don't. Creating a special class of person in a republic rips apart the social fabric and is contrary poisons the work-reward system that we work so hard to embed in the minds of our children from a very early age.0 -
everdead.ie wrote: »So with SARP the basicpremise is to make more foreign execs move here and spend there money in Ireland creating jobs, previously there was a ceiling of 500,000 of which they paid 20% tax on so they paid 100,000 in tax if they were paid that much, as opposed to not having sarp not having more jobs and not having 100,000 extra to spend on "the same roads, call the police, need ambulances/fire trucks, avail of the protection of the Defence Forces, need to resolve disputes in the courts, etc."
Sounds like a great idea to me! And if they attract some other execs on ridiculous salaries of 500,000 plus fantastic better to collect the tax here then let some other country have it.
That's fine. Political views such as this are not without consequence. Sinn Fein love cheerleaders like you.
Would you agree with a maximum personal tax contribution? For example, a €100k limit? After that you keep everything you earn? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this scenario and would be open to debating it.
However, you can't have it both ways - you either have a progressive income tax system or you don't. Creating a special class of person in a republic rips apart the social fabric and poisons the work-reward system that we work so hard to embed in the minds of our children from a very early age.0 -
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Google are in the business of selling advertising. They have an international finance bureau with a multi-lingual call centre tacked on to it here in Dublin.
The net benefit to society of bending over backwards to keep this kind of company in Ireland is debatable.0 -
Well we already have different "classes" of people we have the PAYE worker and the self employed both pay different levels of tax and can get different benefits from the system.That's fine. Political views such as this are not without consequence. Sinn Fein love cheerleaders like you.
Would you agree with a maximum personal tax contribution? For example, a €100k limit? After that you keep everything you earn? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this scenario and would be open to debating it.
However, you can't have it both ways - you either have a progressive income tax system or you don't. Creating a special class of person in a republic rips apart the social fabric and poisons the work-reward system that we work so hard to embed in the minds of our children from a very early age.
Wouldn't really be interested in capping the amount of tax you pay.0 -
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everdead.ie wrote: »Well we already have different "classes" of people we have the PAYE worker and the self employed both pay different levels of tax and can get different benefits from the system.
Wouldn't really be interested in capping the amount of tax you pay.
The self-employed pay for their own sick pay, maternity leave, etc. They must also administer (or pay to administer) their own companies and are responsible if things go wrong - that's before they sell their first widget. Self-employed have to pay extra PRSI to avail of full social welfare entitlements.
Anyway, the SARP execs we're talking about here are not self-employed.
SARP class citizens are entitled to a 30% tax relief, so they're paying 10% tax on unlimited incomes (since budget 2015). Not sure if they pay USC, but nothing would surprise me anymore...0 -
2,500 jobs, sure; but what is net benefit of that? Are these graduates of Irish universities? Or were they imported? Irish graduates have very poor foreign language skills - you need fluency in at least one EU language to get a job in the Google call centre. Even though corporations, such as Google, receive huge state subsidies; they aren't required to publish statistics on the proportion of their employees who are Irish/EU/non-EU.This post had been deleted.
Have you tried buying a flat around Grand Canal? The mechanic or the electrician or the architect has to pay more to buy/rent the same flat just because Google are in town and have a huge international labour force that needs accommodating? In California they have the "G-bus" to ferry the monkeys in and out every day from low-cost suburban locations.This post had been deleted.
Google operating in Dublin puts a huge strain on infrastructure and government services - that comes "free" right? It's good that US corporations want to operate in Ireland, but what price are we willing to pay to keep them here?
A small number of huge companies (they have access to a lot more money that the department of Finance do) dictating tax policy to Kenny and Noonan is a recipe for political and social chaos.
We need to have a debate about our dependance on US corporations. If we want to remain dependant, then how do politicians explain to their constituents that they must pay more and more for less and less?0 -
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