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Is it time for an economically right wing party?

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    #92
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    UncleChael wrote: »
    I think today's budget answered the OP's question. I think its now a case that we(working people), absolutely NEED a right wing party and someone to fight our corner.

    Impossible, Even in the US the republicans are in disarray. The immediate future is socialism until it all falls apart.


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    #93
    adocholiday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭adocholiday


    I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

    Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

    And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.


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    #94
    adocholiday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭adocholiday


    In relation to the job creation vs social welfare discussion. There is nothing wrong with the minimum wage. Increasing it will seriously drive inflation, increasing the cost of living and thus leading to the same arguments that those on social welfare cannot afford to pay bills etc and the vicious circle continues.

    Give businesses more reason to employ people by removing the insane amount of red tape and bureaucracy (not to mention cost) around hiring someone. My father is a business owner and he said that it's easier to take on extra hours himself rather than hiring someone else. At the same time reduce the extra benefits keeping people on the dole. Someone previously mentioned the carrot and stick analogy. Well it's about finding a balance between attracting people to work but it's equally important to ensure that the stick is scary enough to stop it being an attractive alternative


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    #95
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    adocholiday wrote: »
    I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

    Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

    And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

    What, in your opinion, is the problem with setting aside 2.2bn (over the next 3 years) for social housing?

    Or in fact with any of the other measures you mentioned?


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    #96
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,204 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Valmont wrote: »
    Less regulations, less taxation - abolish the minimum wage and youth unemployment would be solved overnight.

    Tbh, without policy details (not having a go at ye) this is little more than Yes, we can.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



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    #97
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #98
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Agree completely with you on the special interest groups. In time it will be seen as the biggest missed opportunity of this recession.


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    #99
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #100
    al22
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭al22


    China create about 12 million new working places per year.
    Why not lower Irish wages to the Chinese USD 500 a month average or less and take their jobs here? To build factories, undercut their business, and export goods to China?
    It will eliminate most of unemployment too.

    At their low wages they still have a modern cities, transport, education etc. And everyone who move from country to cities ge a free apartment (once a life) and apartments are of a better quality than in Ireland.

    Why nobody want it here? :-)


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    #101
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Firstly, it's very possible that many of those social housing units will come to be occupied by working people, so they'll be paying taxes towards them themselves, along with the rents they pay to local authorities.

    Secondly, investing in social housing stock is a capital investment with a whole range of benefits. Would you rather we kept paying slum landlords 500m a year in rent supplement ad infinitum?

    There is no pretense that the state can create jobs. Any individual or organisation with the capacity to invest can create jobs, directly or indirectly.

    The fact of the matter is that we have a large pool of unemployed persons with skills and experience in construction, we also have a housing shortage. I guess the government has put 2 and 2 together......

    As for the portion of society that cost the state 20bn a year? The vast majority of that money ends up in the tills of businesses around the country. You could argue that the state spends too much on social spending, yet we are in and around the OECD average.

    So often these 'right wing' critiques seem to me to be self centred whinging because somebody or some section of society is perceived to be getting more than they deserve. In my opinion it's typically a fiction.


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    #102
    Mahogany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭Mahogany


    Right Wing thinking is what got us into this mess so no thank you.


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    #103
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #104
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #105
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    marienbad wrote: »
    I don't dispute some of this at all, but it is not the problem ( in terms of this discussion), if and when we create the jobs and find that they are not taken up , then you might have a case. Lets create the jobs climate first , previous experience has indicated that given the chance people prefer to work.

    Now if you are saying that this template has been irreparably busted due to inordinate SW rates you might well have a case but we have to wait and see.

    Yes, however, it has been noted by many in the business community that it is very hard very often to entice people off the dole into lowish paying jobs. The people on the dole look at the rate being offered, do the sums and say "No, not worth it". I don't blame them

    There are two solutions to this.

    1)This person finds a better paying job, but that usually involves a skill, a trade or a qualification of some sort say in IT, Health and so on. A lot of people on the dole either have no skills relevant to today's market so naturally they will not take up worth that they see as 'beneath them'. OK, so back to school education allowance and so forth can help but not everyone is motivated to re learn something when older but they should be encouraged to do so.

    2) The stick. Reduce the dole and this could be done over a period of time. Say every 12 months that someone is on it, reduce it by 10% each time until its 50% of what it is. This would be a incentive for someone to go off and educate themselves and look for work. Germany has something similar to this.

    Lastly, people forget that Ireland is still attracting immigrants from Eastern Europe to take up low paying jobs, 10,000's of thousands in fact in the worst recession of the past 80 years. So there is work out there just not at the rates that many Irish people want. The days of the easy money is gone. To get good money one has to be driven to learn a skill and add value to themselves. Unskilled work is low paid for a reason.


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    #106
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    adocholiday wrote: »
    I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

    Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

    And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

    One doesnt even need to be that right wing economically to see how much of the folly in the latest budget is and its blatent pandering to loutish special interest groups.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/the-punt-mchales-warning-on-soft-budget-stance-30664059.html
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/fiscal-council-chair-wanted-a-2bn-adjustment-291403.html
    But yesterday, with hours to go until Finance Minister Michael Noonan took to his feet to deliver Budget 2015, he expressed his fear that the country could repeat the mistakes of the past, amid calls from interest groups for an easing up of austerity. And he mooted the possibility of his resignation should it be required in the future.


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    #107
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    adocholiday wrote: »
    I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

    Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

    And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

    They have learned their lesson from 2002 & 2007 - they are blatantly trying to buy the election, like FF did.


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    #108
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    adocholiday wrote: »
    I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

    On priinciple I would be interested too, but I am scared of hi-jacking by fringe weirdoes of the type who screech "baby killers" at anyone who has sensible opinions on abortion or similar social issues.

    In my opinion the Catholic Taliban types are a great distraction and hindrance. I wouldn't vote for any party that involved them, but would certainly vote for a sensible moderate right wing party with libertarian social liberal views, or at least middle of the road on social issues - much like the PD's used to be.


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    #109
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #110
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Private investors have been reluctant to start building houses in line with increased demand and prices that have risen 25% in a year. What makes you think that making a mortgage more difficult to obtain and attempting to increase the housing stock is an attempt to prop up housing prices?

    Furthermore, with 860,000 working poor earning so little they don't reach the threshold for income tax, how do you expect them to house themselves in our cities, with drastic under supply and colossal rent prices?


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    #111
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    porsche959 wrote: »
    They have learned their lesson from 2002 & 2007 - they are blatantly trying to buy the election, like FF did.

    That completely misses the point, the majority of the electorate are hypocrites.


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    #112
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jank wrote: »
    Yes, however, it has been noted by many in the business community that it is very hard very often to entice people off the dole into lowish paying jobs. The people on the dole look at the rate being offered, do the sums and say "No, not worth it". I don't blame them

    There are two solutions to this.

    1)This person finds a better paying job, but that usually involves a skill, a trade or a qualification of some sort say in IT, Health and so on. A lot of people on the dole either have no skills relevant to today's market so naturally they will not take up worth that they see as 'beneath them'. OK, so back to school education allowance and so forth can help but not everyone is motivated to re learn something when older but they should be encouraged to do so.

    2) The stick. Reduce the dole and this could be done over a period of time. Say every 12 months that someone is on it, reduce it by 10% each time until its 50% of what it is. This would be a incentive for someone to go off and educate themselves and look for work. Germany has something similar to this.

    Lastly, people forget that Ireland is still attracting immigrants from Eastern Europe to take up low paying jobs, 10,000's of thousands in fact in the worst recession of the past 80 years. So there is work out there just not at the rates that many Irish people want. The days of the easy money is gone. To get good money one has to be driven to learn a skill and add value to themselves. Unskilled work is low paid for a reason.

    Low paying jobs and forcing people to take them is never the answer . That just switchs subsidies from people to business - just like Walmart where all employess are on foodstamps.

    Another issue in any case seems to be the Irish workers will not take those jobs under any circumstances so we have the foreign lads and lassies and good luck to them , you get service efficiently and with a smile and the quality of work across all areas is just outstanding. imho opinion they are playing a vital role in our recovery as they have brought a sense of reality back to the work force


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    #113
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    marienbad wrote: »
    Low paying jobs and forcing people to take them is never the answer . That just switchs subsidies from people to business - just like Walmart where all employess are on foodstamps.

    Another issue in any case seems to be the Irish workers will not take those jobs under any circumstances so we have the foreign lads and lassies and good luck to them , you get service efficiently and with a smile and the quality of work across all areas is just outstanding. imho opinion they are playing a vital role in our recovery as they have brought a sense of reality back to the work force

    Getting people off welfare into Jobs is not the answer? Welfare is supposed to be a net, not a "Ill see if I can get a job that pays what I want". Beggars cannot be choosers and more often then not if you are in a job, you are more likely to move to a higher paid job over time. The statistics prove this. Nobody owes you a living and I think the Irish psyche has changed massively over the past 20 years regards this.

    I agree with people coming over and getting a job. I was just drawing onto the fact that there are jobs out there and the reason why many Irish people are on the dole is that they find a lot of the work on offer too lowly paid or beneath them. The dole in its current format just creates a poverty trap with little or no incentive to get off it. Work should always be incensed.


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    #114
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    jank wrote: »
    Getting people off welfare into Jobs is not the answer? Welfare is supposed to be a net, not a "Ill see if I can get a job that pays what I want". Beggars cannot be choosers and more often then not if you are in a job, you are more likely to move to a higher paid job over time. The statistics prove this. Nobody owes you a living and I think the Irish psyche has changed massively over the past 20 years regards this.

    I agree with people coming over and getting a job. I was just drawing onto the fact that there are jobs out there and the reason why many Irish people are on the dole is that they find a lot of the work on offer too lowly paid or beneath them. The dole in its current format just creates a poverty trap with little or no incentive to get off it. Work should always be incensed.

    I am not disagreeing with much of this Jank , I just don't agree with switching from Social welfare to Corporate welfare which is what a lot of these schemes are .

    The is no evidence that if jobs are available that people will not go for them . This is outside the 4 or 5% in every country that for what ever reason will never work.

    I will accept the balance between welfare and work has been skewed in recent years and needs correction but fundamentally most people want to work .


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    #115
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #116
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.


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    #117
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Valmont wrote: »
    Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.

    The issue is far more complex than that. There is always a % of the population that will be unemployed. In every country throughout history unemployment exists. Economically speaking full employment is around 2-3% of the population unemployed.

    Reason being, some are undesirable.. and no employer will take them on (rightly so), others in between jobs etc. During the so called boom, we weren't far off full employment.


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    #118
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Valmont wrote: »
    Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.

    You'd be surprised how little choice really enters into it. I've spent years working with the unemployed. You'd be surprised how many middle aged men in this country can't read and write for example, it's not a matter of guys like this, who may have been fine block-layers or whatever, just popping off a few application forms to the local supermarkets and be stacking shelves in a few weeks.

    Likewise I've seen the same bunch of young people traipse in and out of my office every month for years now, with any enthusiasm crushed out of them. There's a swathe of young people from a particular type of background who didn't make it to college, didn't have the cash or networks to emigrate and are competing for the lowest paid jobs with migrants of far better education/experience.

    There are schemes to help alleviate some of these problems but they aren't suitable for everyone and there aren't the resources to offer everybody a leg up either.

    95% of these people would work the rest are people with substance abuse issues or maybe mental health problems. To glibly assert that people would voluntarily subject themselves to a life of grinding poverty, stigmatisation and dependency continues to propagate the media led fiction that the feckless and lazy poor squander the money of the virtuous and prudent middle/upper classes


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    #119
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,319 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Halloween Jack wrote: »
    To glibly assert that people would voluntarily subject themselves to a life of grinding poverty, stigmatisation and dependency continues to propagate the media led fiction that the feckless and lazy poor squander the money of the virtuous and prudent middle/upper classes

    Grinding poverty? On €188 per week? Are you sure?


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    #120
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    Gloomtastic! wrote: »
    Grinding poverty? On €188 per week? Are you sure?

    Yep, there are a lot of people now who don't qualify for rent allowance now as the vast majority of rents in the city are above the allowable thresholds. While rents are lower outside the cities the thresholds are also lower and you have extra costs associated with getting in to cities to avail of services etc...

    I would suggest trying to house, clothe and feed yourself on 188 constitutes poverty.


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    #121
    Gloomtastic!
    Registered Users Posts: 8,319 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Halloween Jack wrote: »
    Yep, there are a lot of people now who don't qualify for rent allowance now as the vast majority of rents in the city are above the allowable thresholds. While rents are lower outside the cities the thresholds are also lower and you have extra costs associated with getting in to cities to avail of services etc...

    I would suggest trying to house, clothe and feed yourself on 188 constitutes poverty.

    Just as well you don't work in the UK then. You'd be distraught!


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