What's The Point If Everyone Is Going To Heaven?

thevan1983 · 07-12-2007 2:14am #1

I’m an Irish Catholic twenty something male with a strong belief in God. This certainly wavers from time to time but most of the time, I really do believe that EVERYONE on this planet was once a child, and we are all children of God. I do not fear God, for I believe that he loves us and we will all go to Heaven when we die. I don’t see God as being this figure who judges all and one we should be afraid of. I see him as one who loves us all. I do not believe in hell. I don’t see any of us going to hell, not even the worst of the dictators from the last century. I am not a regular church goer and disagree with a lot of what the church stands for in fact. I believe in the concept of treating every other person you meet in the way in you would want to be treated. I believe that there is good and evil in everyone and sometimes the evil wins out but when that person dies, he/she will be given the same space in Heaven as the most good-natured people down on earth will eventually enjoy too. I’m also a firm believer in redemption on earth too. Joe Strummer, Johnny Cash and Bob Marley all sang versions of Redemption Song and you can tell that they really mean it. If people made mistakes and there was no way to claw their lives back, to show people they are sorry and want to change, where’s the hope in that? This is how I view Christianity. I myself have made mistakes in my life but have tried to forgive myself and am trying to change. At the end of the day, many years away or could be next week as seen on the news tonight(RIP Katy French), I would love to have lived a happy life, made others who came across me happy too and generally to have made a difference when im here.

My big question is this……….if no matter what we do on Earth, we will all end up living in perfect bliss in Heaven, what’s the point in even trying down here? Don’t get me wrong by the way, I always have been a positive person, I really had a great childhood, such a happy kid until I made a big blunder and pretty much wasn’t able to forgive myself. Through a lot of soul searching over the past few years, I came to the conclusion that it was a mistake and I have forgiven myself. I’ve also come to the conclusion that all will be well in the end. But you see, here is the crux, ive let myself get too lazy, too relaxed, no longer desperate to live life to the fullest because im looking to Heaven already.

Maybe im just too scared to get out of my comfort zone? In fact, I am but I am trying to change that. But, if in the end of the day, we’ll all be in Heaven, what’s the point?

I may not have articulated all of this very well but are there people who are out there who feel the same / have an opinion on this?

PS This all arose after hearing Fr Peter McVerry being interviewed on Eamon Dunphy’s radio show a few months back (on itunes podcasts). Eamon asked him the question but then asked another so Fr McVerry wasn’t given the time to answer unfortunately.

PPS That interview was really good and the work Fr McVerry is doing for the people on the edge of the light in Irish society is incredible in my opinion.

JC 2K3 · 07-12-2007 2:17am

I always presumed that Christians believed that myself and my atheist companions were going to rot in hell for eternity, no?

Otherwise, as you say yourself, what IS the point?

kelly1 · 07-12-2007 2:35am

Greetings thevan!

Good, honest post! I've just drunk half a bottle of wine so I'm in not fit state to answer tonight (this morning). Will come back to you in the morn.

God bless,
Noel.

thevan1983 · 07-12-2007 2:57am

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I always presumed that Christians believed that myself and my atheist companions were going to rot in hell for eternity, no?

Otherwise, as you say yourself, what IS the point?

I certainly don't hold that opinion myself. I think everyone has different beliefs out there and I respect everyone else's as none of us can say we know for sure. I just think that if there is a God he'll be looking out for absolutely everyone and he won't really mind what anyone's beliefs were. Im just trying to get to the crux of why try?

ryoishin · 07-12-2007 3:08am

Hey,

Christianity is a community faith. its not about private faith. Being a Christian is about living as a member of an organic living group of people not about living in fear of what the afterlife is like. The point of making an effort in the here and now is because its what human relationships are about. Sin is to fall short of being Christian. Not what you do (sort of) but not doing what you could try to do as a member of a community ie family, friends, social group,country etc.

If there was no God and no afterlife people would still have a point.

Also there is the possibilty that you could be wrong in your thoughts about heaven. But their your beliefs.

If you believe in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit then God himself is community and by living in a community people become more akin to the divine.

The work that peter mcverry does helps the community and is an example of what the point is.

Zombrex · 07-12-2007 9:05am

thevan1983 wrote: »

I just think that if there is a God he'll be looking out for absolutely everyone and he won't really mind what anyone's beliefs were.

That ain't a standard Christian doctrine

RAMADAN · 07-12-2007 9:52am

For the record, the standard Christian doctrine is that ALL are saved by Christ's death on the cross, and that it is up to each person to accept that or not.

One nonp-standard way to look at this is to see humans as responsible for creating their own capacity to enjoy heaven. By how I live, I determine the extent of my future happiness. I have the capacity to say a complete yes to God, a complete no or anything in-between. It is something I say by the totality of my life.

PDN · 07-12-2007 10:10am

thevan1983 wrote: »

I’m also a firm believer in redemption on earth too. Joe Strummer, Johnny Cash and Bob Marley all sang versions of Redemption Song and you can tell that they really mean it. If people made mistakes and there was no way to claw their lives back, to show people they are sorry and want to change, where’s the hope in that?

I don't believe everyone is going to heaven. I would prefer it if there was no hell, and I don't think hell is a necessary for a religion to function, but I believe what is in the Bible.

Certainly the opportunity exists for redemption here on earth. The guy who conducted my wedding ceremony was a convicted loyalist killer who had repented and turned his life around - and a nicer guy you are never likely to meet.

Even if you believe that everyone is going to heaven, there would still be plenty of point. My involvement in Christianity has enabled me to be of practical help to others in ways I would never have imagined, as well as helping me live a better lifestyle as part of a loving and supportive community. Studies demonstrate that people who regularly participate in worship services are much more likely to give to charity and to engage in voluntary community activities. So there is much benefit, both to yourself and others, for being a Christian quite apart from the issue of whether everyone goes to heaven or not.

Peter McVerry is a good example. I watched 'Would You Believe' the other night on RTE and was impressed by the work he was doing. I did wonder how he was allowed to practice as a priest, celebrating mass and stuff, when he was obviously opposed to Catholic doctrine on hell - but I thank God for the work he is doing among addicts.

Pompey Magnus · 07-12-2007 10:36am

It would be a lovely thought that Christianity teaches that we all would go to Heaven but I don't think this is supported by the Gospels:

"For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 3:10

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17.

As an athiest I would advise you to start living life to the fullest as it is all that you have, but as you are coming from a Christian point of view did Jesus not give the Parable of the Talents where God condemns the man who did not use what was given to him to its full potential and sends him into the darkness where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

So coming from either approach I don't think just sitting back and waiting for death is a great way to live life.

edanto · 07-12-2007 10:40am

Heaven and Hell are equally morally reprehensible and their existence as concepts shows the falseness of organised religion.

IMHO. (as a follower of Christ & Buddha & the prophet).

Run_to_da_hills · 07-12-2007 10:43am

Only a few make it to Heaven.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it". Matthew 7 vs 14

PDN · 07-12-2007 10:55am

edanto wrote: »

Heaven and Hell are equally morally reprehensible and their existence as concepts shows the falseness of organised religion.

IMHO. (as a follower of Christ & Buddha & the prophet).

So you follow a guy who spent a good bit of his time teaching morally reprehensible stuff?

kmick · 07-12-2007 10:56am

Ill just throw one point in there - people who spend their time on this good earth being horrible to other people in one form or another are generally not happy people.

The reward is here and now. Be good to people and you will experience good.

edanto · 07-12-2007 3:23pm

+1 kmick

PDN wrote: »

So you follow a guy who spent a good bit of his time teaching morally reprehensible stuff?

You believe everything you read in King James' version of the Bible?
Personally, I feel a lot of what Christ said was taken out of context. But hey while I'm on my high horse, I don't know if there's a god or not, or a heaven, or a hell.

Only to do unto others as you would they do unto you.

But I do know that anyone that says that they know what happens to us after we die is lying through their teeth, no matter what costume they're wearing or what religion they're part of.

Pepe le Sac - letter from God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KnGNOiFll4

or Talib Kweli (some poetry about beliefs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGvZ9aXg5Xs

PDN · 07-12-2007 3:38pm

edanto wrote: »

You believe everything you read in King James' version of the Bible?

No, I never use the King James Version of the Bible (not quite sure what the KJV has to do with anything, but no doubt you had your reasons for mentioning it). For my own personal study I prefer to read the New Testament in the original Greek.

The only information we have about Christ's teaching is what we have in the Bible. If we reject that as a source then all we are doing is inventing an imaginary figure, attributing to him any ideas we think are nice, and calling him 'Jesus'. That might help you to develop your own morality, but following Jesus it ain't.

edanto · 07-12-2007 3:40pm

PDN wrote: »

That might help you to develop your own morality, but following Jesus it ain't.

ok.

Zombrex · 07-12-2007 4:42pm

PDN wrote: »

No, I never use the King James Version of the Bible (not quite sure what the KJV has to do with anything, but no doubt you had your reasons for mentioning it). For my own personal study I prefer to read the New Testament in the original Greek.

The only information we have about Christ's teaching is what we have in the Bible. If we reject that as a source then all we are doing is inventing an imaginary figure, attributing to him any ideas we think are nice, and calling him 'Jesus'. That might help you to develop your own morality, but following Jesus it ain't.

I'm pretty sure most Christians here would say that their first source of all is their personal communication with God. The Bible comes second.

After all without that personal communication the Bible is just a holy book. There are hundreds of holy books, the Bible isn't special unless one first has reason to believe that it is actually a communication from God. There is no reason to accept anything in the Bible without first having its authenticity confirm by a personal communication from God (which is given as an explanation as to why atheists like myself consider it simply another holy book, one of many)

So why can't this personal communication also tell someone that the Bible is in fact a flawed representation of what Jesus was said and did?

The idea that one must accept the entire Bible or reject all of it doesn't make sense. Without this individual confirmation there is no reason to accept any of the Bible. And with this individual confirmation it is not necessary to accept all of it.

philologos · 07-12-2007 4:45pm

Wicknight wrote:

I'm pretty sure most Christians here would say that their first source of all is their personal communication with God. The Bible comes second.

The only source we have to know what God's nature is however is the Bible. I suppose you can find out small elements from your personal experience with God, but I don't think anything else tells us as much about him asides from the Bible.

ryoishin · 07-12-2007 4:50pm

It depends on how you view the Bible. As a history book or as a tool to help a growing faith thats taken in its entirity and not a view that fixates on a certain sentance or quote.

laughin'joe · 07-12-2007 4:52pm

well said man well said...most of these people are boring and lead a horrible unhappy life...bible bashers....I believe in what goes around comes around..karma and what you said be good and good will follow....

kmick wrote: »

Ill just throw one point in there - people who spend their time on this good earth being horrible to other people in one form or another are generally not happy people.

The reward is here and now. Be good to people and you will experience good.

Zombrex · 07-12-2007 4:59pm

Jakkass wrote: »

The only source we have to know what God's nature is however is the Bible.

Who told you that?

If it was God himself, then is it not possible that someone had a similar experience when God told them that not everything in the Bible is to be trusted as accurate?

JC 2K3 · 07-12-2007 5:06pm

thevan1983 wrote: »

I certainly don't hold that opinion myself. I think everyone has different beliefs out there and I respect everyone else's as none of us can say we know for sure. I just think that if there is a God he'll be looking out for absolutely everyone and he won't really mind what anyone's beliefs were. Im just trying to get to the crux of why try?

Because being a good person makes you feel good. Everyone should try and be a good person for the benefit of society.

Christians generally believe that if you don't act in a certain way you will rot in hell. You sound more like an Agnostic, personally.

BrianCalgary · 07-12-2007 5:13pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm pretty sure most Christians here would say that their first source of all is their personal communication with God. The Bible comes second. .

Not at all. The Bible comes first, then prayer. God communicates to us through both and we test against the Bible.

Wicknight wrote: »

So why can't this personal communication also tell someone that the Bible is in fact a flawed representation of what Jesus was said and did?.

It certainly could and since it disgarees with scripture then the communication isn't from God. Just like th elittle voice that tells me to go on a murder rampage, not from God because it doesn't hold up to scripture.

Wicknight wrote: »

The idea that one must accept the entire Bible or reject all of it doesn't make sense. Without this individual confirmation there is no reason to accept any of the Bible. And with this individual confirmation it is not necessary to accept all of it.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'm speechless. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

PDN · 07-12-2007 5:29pm

laughin'joe wrote: »

well said man well said...most of these people are boring and lead a horrible unhappy life...bible bashers....I believe in what goes around comes around..karma and what you said be good and good will follow....

Yeah, we're all really unhappy and leading horrible lives. :rolleyes:

Actually I'm having a blast and I love my life. My happiness index is in the high nineties.

Zombrex · 07-12-2007 8:47pm

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Not at all. The Bible comes first, then prayer. God communicates to us through both and we test against the Bible.

Ok, and you know the Bible is the word of God because ... ?

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It certainly could and since it disgarees with scripture then the communication isn't from God.

That doesn't make any sense.

A book written by men 2000 years ago can't be mistaken but the deity talking to you can?

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Just like th elittle voice that tells me to go on a murder rampage, not from God because it doesn't hold up to scripture.

Er .. ok (backs away carefully avoiding eye contact)

BrianCalgary wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'm speechless. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Why?

You are basically saying you accept the Bible as the word of God over God actually talking to you.

As I said that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The Bible is just a book. What possible authority could you give to it on its own? There are literally hundreds of holy books from human history. The Bible has no authority as the word of God unless one confirms it is actually the word of God. And the Bible itself can't do that, because it has no authority itself unless it one has already confirmed it is actually the word of God etc etc etc

You must have some reason to accept the Bible as actually having authority to represent God, external to the Bible itself.

It would be like walking down the street and stopping at a hand written sign that says

"Michael Jackson rapes children. This sign was written by Michael Jackson"

and going "wow, its weird of him to just admit it like that"

Karlusss · 07-12-2007 9:20pm

The amount of people who come here and say that they don't believe God could do this or do that is really surprising.

If you don't believe in what the Christian God had to say for himself in the Bible, then what are you testing this belief against? If the God from the Old Testament was too bad for you to deal with, then the New Testament doesn't have any basis, and the "God" that you believe loves everyone is really just someone you've made up so you feel comfortable.

BrianCalgary · 07-12-2007 11:03pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok, and you know the Bible is the word of God because ... ?

That doesn't make any sense.

A book written by men 2000 years ago can't be mistaken but the deity talking to you can?

Er .. ok (backs away carefully avoiding eye contact)

Why?

You are basically saying you accept the Bible as the word of God over God actually talking to you.

As I said that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The Bible is just a book. What possible authority could you give to it on its own? There are literally hundreds of holy books from human history. The Bible has no authority as the word of God unless one confirms it is actually the word of God. And the Bible itself can't do that, because it has no authority itself unless it one has already confirmed it is actually the word of God etc etc etc

You must have some reason to accept the Bible as actually having authority to represent God, external to the Bible itself.

It would be like walking down the street and stopping at a hand written sign that says

"Michael Jackson rapes children. This sign was written by Michael Jackson"

and going "wow, its weird of him to just admit it like that"

C'mon wicknight think about it. Sometimes I just don't believe the stuff you come up with. :rolleyes:

Someone phones me, claiming to be involved in investments and how they can make me millions if I send them $10,000 today.

Am I going to believe it? would you? Or would you want to check on the persons credentials first? meet them, get to know them, are they really who they say they are?

The Bible is the word of God. There are demons out there who would wish for me to stumble and sin. So yes, the deity I could be talking to may not be God, therefore you test the message against scripture. You obtain authenticity, just as you would with the voice on teh other end of the phone.

but of course you won't get this because you just do not want to understand analogies nor do you want to acknowledge anythjiong a Christian ever says.

Why do I ever bother. :rolleyes:

Stabshauptmann · 08-12-2007 9:57pm

Same as why people answer trolls in the Personal Issues forum, though the answer is useless to the troll, it may be of use to others.

philologos · 08-12-2007 10:27pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok, and you know the Bible is the word of God because ... ?

In my opinion the Holy Spirit simple as.

RAMADAN · 12-12-2007 9:51pm

Hmmm. A tall order. Whose bible? Whose translations? Whose books (apocrypha or not)? The problem here is that some institution or authority had to agree the bible to be what it is, the canon of scripture. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, is not part of the canon. Catholics include additional chapters in Daniel which some protestants exclude. So, before one can make the claim that the bible is the word of God, one must indicate the source of the authority that agreed this. From whence then did this group, that agreed on what books made up the bible, derive its authority. This authority could not come from the bible (as it was not yet agreed) so where did it come from?

What's The Point If Everyone Is Going To Heaven?

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