Galway Harbour Company has banned Motorhome Parking

Irishgoatman · 19-10-2014 1:59pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Its planning permission states it's an area of land on which parking is permitted.
If it is kerb side parking on a public road it would not need planning permission.

It is in fact a development on premises (operated by The Galway Harbour Company) to be used as off-street parking otherwise it would not have needed planning permission in the first place.

It should also be noted that the grant of permission does not contain any references to category, weight or size of vehicle which may use the facility.
The fact that it is referred to as a car-park carries no meaning that its use is restricted to cars, as is the case when the term car is applied to such things as car-ferries, car-ports, car-wash, etc., etc..

Sorry niloc but most of the above is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now I'm even more confused!. Kol's picture clearly shows that it is not off street parking, I know many towns here in Mayo where we park in the main street in exactly the same way. Nose/tail first and no way would it be referred to as off street parking.

Any large vehicle, be it MH or a lorry, could easily obstruct either the road or the foot path along side the dock. The obvious question, in my mind, is who owns Dock Street?, the council or the Harbour Board?. If it's the council then the Harbour Board surely could not have been granted permission to put in parking places, that would have been down to the council. If it's the Harbour Board then it is not a change of use because it's still being used by vehicles, albeit some of them are not moving.

Does the strip of land where the parking spaces are belong to the Harbour Board? if so I assume they must also own the footpath, so they could narrow the footpath a little thus giving more room for MH's to park without obstructing the road if that's owned by the council.

Please let me know if I'm missing something.

zambo · 19-10-2014 7:23pm

It looks to me as though the strip of land next the dock may be the Galway version of the campshires in Dublin i.e. the area used for loading and unloading vessels and as such part of the port area.However that does not mean the harbour board would own the roadway.
It is a great pity that they wish to ban us using this space at night when some of the other potential users are likely to be somewhat anti-social,they are passing up the chance of having people on site who have the best interest of the area in mind.

*Kol* · 19-10-2014 8:04pm

zambo wrote: »

It looks to me as though the strip of land next the dock may be the Galway version of the campshires in Dublin i.e. the area used for loading and unloading vessels and as such part of the port area.However that does not mean the harbour board would own the roadway.
It is a great pity that they wish to ban us using this space at night when some of the other potential users are likely to be somewhat anti-social,they are passing up the chance of having people on site who have the best interest of the area in mind.

The way the sign is worded it looks like they don't want campervan parking day or night. I have come across beachfront in France with signs like this (as far as I recall Carnac Plage was one of them).

To be honest f I parked the MH there front in, it would protrude out onto the road, back in it would obstruct the path. Either way a bit careless and inconsiderate for road or path users. I would personally prefer not to park there in that case and certainly wouldn't stay there overnight.

For vehicles that fit within the dimensions of the spaces I would see no problem allowing those to park there.

niloc1951 · 19-10-2014 8:04pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Sorry niloc but most of the above is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now I'm even more confused!. Kol's picture clearly shows that it is not off street parking, I know many towns here in Mayo where we park in the main street in exactly the same way. Nose/tail first and no way would it be referred to as off street parking.

Any large vehicle, be it MH or a lorry, could easily obstruct either the road or the foot path along side the dock. The obvious question, in my mind, is who owns Dock Street?, the council or the Harbour Board?. If it's the council then the Harbour Board surely could not have been granted permission to put in parking places, that would have been down to the council. If it's the Harbour Board then it is not a change of use because it's still being used by vehicles, albeit some of them are not moving.

Does the strip of land where the parking spaces are belong to the Harbour Board? if so I assume they must also own the footpath, so they could narrow the footpath a little thus giving more room for MH's to park without obstructing the road if that's owned by the council.

Please let me know if I'm missing something.

What is relevant is the fact that the parking of motorhomes has been stopped because The Galway Harbour Company were advised by Galway City Council Planning Department that they were in contravention of the planning permission granted for the facility.

Therefore the issue of the layout of the parking is irrelevant, the place may look like a public street/road but is obviously not, otherwise it would be under the direct control of Galway City Council.

The signs prohibiting motorhome parking have been erected by The Galway Harbour Company at the insistence of Galway City Council. Again this action points to the fact that the area is not under the direct control Galway City Council and is within the premises of The Galway Harbour Company..

niloc1951 · 19-10-2014 8:15pm

*Kol* wrote: »

.................... I have come across beachfront in France with signs like this (as far as I recall Carnac Plage was one of them). ................................

So have I,BUT you will find parking provided elsewhere in the vicinity.

See HERE and HERE

*Kol* · 19-10-2014 8:31pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

So have I,BUT you will find parking provided elsewhere in the vicinity.

See HERE and HERE

In context my comment related to the fact that parking appeared to be prohibited day or night (you omitted that part). Alternative overnight parking is not relevant as there is no obligation for it to be provided. In regard to daytime parking I am sure it is available elsewhere in the city.

Irishgoatman · 19-10-2014 10:41pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

What is relevant is the fact that the parking of motorhomes has been stopped because The Galway Harbour Company were advised by Galway City Council Planning Department that they were in contravention of the planning permission granted for the facility.

Therefore the issue of the layout of the parking is irrelevant, the place may look like a public street/road but is obviously not, otherwise it would be under the direct control of Galway City Council.

The signs prohibiting motorhome parking have been erected by The Galway Harbour Company at the insistence of Galway City Council. Again this action points to the fact that the area is not under the direct control Galway City Council and is within the premises of The Galway Harbour Company..

Sorry niloc but, for once & me and thee usually see eye to eye, I can't follow your logic. You said in an earlier post that MH's and cars come under the same catergory so how could the Harbour Board have contravened planning for car parking other than the safety aspect?. If the Council do not own the road then the harbour Board could alter the road markings to make the road a little narrower.

Many years ago, in the U.K., I on a daily basis, along with hundreds of other motorists, used a road that went through an army base. Although it was fully open to the public and maintained by the council, once a year the Military had to post a checkpoint on the road to inform traffic that they were on a private road. The only say that the Council had was that the public be allowed to use it. Nothing more.

Should have added to the above that one year there was chaos because the soldiers on checkpoint duty were not told that they couldn't stop people using the road. I was over 30 minutes late to work that morning!!!.

It really comes down, as I said/asked earlier, to who actually owns the road?.

niloc1951 · 19-10-2014 11:18pm

*Kol* wrote: »

In context my comment related to the fact that parking appeared to be prohibited day or night (you omitted that part). Alternative overnight parking is not relevant as there is no obligation for it to be provided. In regard to daytime parking I am sure it is available elsewhere in the city.

Of course it's relevant, off-street overnight parking is a common requirement for vehicles of any and every category, be they buses, coaches, HGV's, cars or whatever and of course there is an obligation on local authorities to provide it. If such parking was not provided there would be a situation where vehicles would be required to be driven around all night or park kerb-side on a street or housing estate.
Such an option is not always an environmentally friendly one for certain vehicles. Who wants a freezer unit, coach or box-van parked outside their door all night, or a motorhome for that matter. One can be fairly confident that residents so effected would beat a path to their local council office to lodge a complaint.
Then there is the width issue for such vehicles, being in the region of a half a meter wider than a car can cause its own problems if parallel parked on the average urban street.

However, if there is no off-street parking provided at all that's a different story and obviously the above is irrelevant.

The real issue is that there is clear discrimination against the drivers of motorhomes when their vehicles are singled out for the ludicrous special treatment of being denied access to off-street overnight parking throughput a whole municipality or council area as in the current situation in the City of Galway.

As a matter of interest, do you not expect that overnight parking is provided for you if you are away from your own home in your own car or whatever vehicle you may be driving, and would you not prefer it to be in the relative safety of an off-street parking area as opposed to kerb-side where your vehicle is more exposed to vandalism from passers by or damage from careless drivers.

*Kol* · 20-10-2014 12:36am

niloc1951 wrote: »

Of course it's relevant, off-street overnight parking is a common requirement for vehicles of any and every category, be they buses, coaches, HGV's, cars or whatever and of course there is an obligation on local authorities to provide it. If such parking was not provided there would be a situation where vehicles would be required to be driven around all night or park kerb-side on a street or housing estate.
Such an option is not always an environmentally friendly one for certain vehicles. Who wants a freezer unit, coach or box-van parked outside their door all night, or a motorhome for that matter. One can be fairly confident that residents so effected would beat a path to their local council office to lodge a complaint.
Then there is the width issue for such vehicles, being in the region of a half a meter wider than a car can cause its own problems if parallel parked on the average urban street.

However, if there is no off-street parking provided at all that's a different story and obviously the above is irrelevant.

The real issue is that there is clear discrimination against the drivers of motorhomes when their vehicles are singled out for the ludicrous special treatment of being denied access to off-street overnight parking throughput a whole municipality or council area as in the current situation in the City of Galway.

As a matter of interest, do you not expect that overnight parking is provided for you if you are away from your own home in your own car or whatever vehicle you may be driving, and would you not prefer it to be in the relative safety of an off-street parking area as opposed to kerb-side where your vehicle is more exposed to vandalism from passers by or damage from careless drivers.

Overnight parking whether off street or not may be a requirement but there is no obligation for this to be provided. I hope you are being tongue in cheek when you say that HGV and bus drivers may drive around all night in the absence of overnight parking being provided for them? There is nowhere in any city that you won't find a space at night for a bus or a HGV or car for free. Yes it would be preferable to have off street parking but it's not always available.

When I go away there is normally parking available off street. I am trying to think of an instance where I couldn't get satisfactory car parking but I cannot. To be honest your car would be safer on the street than in some of the off street obstacle course car parks that are around these days. Between narrow spaces, concrete pillars and narrow manouvering space you are more likely to get your car damaged than out on the street. Plus the guy who is supposed to be looking after the cars at night is probably too busy posting on boards than watching the security camera screens!!!

Don't get me wrong. I do see your frustration regarding the lack overnight parking for MH's around the country in general. Hopefully this will be addressed in the not too distant future.

niloc1951 · 22-10-2014 3:40pm

The situation at The Galway Harbour Company's parking area was discussed on Galway Bay FM during The Keith Finnegan Show this morning, it's 00:18:05 into the recording.

piuswal · 23-10-2014 2:09am

niloc1951 wrote: »

The situation at The Galway Harbour Company's parking area was discussed on Galway Bay FM during The Keith Finnegan Show this morning, it's 00:18:05 into the recording.

Just listened to Phoenix Motorhome representative discuss the issue re Galway.

Any chance he might get on Waterford Local Radio to discuss the issue in Dungarvan?

The question was asked as to what or who prompted the "Planning" authorities to take such a keen interest in the Docks. Has that question been asked directly of the authorities? Would they respond? Would it be worth making some enquiries under FOI, or is that possible?

Has anyone contacted Damien Geoghegan, chairman of Waterford Council and if so have they got a response? The November meeting cannot be too far away.

shruikan2553 · 23-10-2014 2:31am

It is a bit odd. I see the area daily and they were never an issue. Now the place hardly has anyone in it so I would guess the owners aren't happy about the loss of revenue.

*Kol* · 23-10-2014 8:47am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It is a bit odd. I see the area daily and they were never an issue. Now the place hardly has anyone in it so I would guess the owners aren't happy about the loss of revenue.

I doubt the loss of revenue is significant. How many spaces were there?

niloc1951 · 23-10-2014 9:34am

*Kol* wrote: »

I doubt the loss of revenue is significant. How many spaces were there?

It's not so much the loss of revenue from the parking fee but the loss to local businesses.
The tourists who stayed there undoubtedly patronised local restaurants, bars and shops. Surveys have shown that tourists who travel by motorhome spend an average of €28 per person daily in the local retail/pub/restaurant economy of where they overnight.

It's for the above reason that so many villages/towns/cities on The Continent, and a few here in Ireland, provide the parking for free.

niloc1951 · 23-10-2014 9:41am

piuswal wrote: »

...................................................Has anyone contacted Damien Geoghegan, chairman of Waterford Council and if so have they got a response? The November meeting cannot be too far away.

I believe that Cllr Geoghegan, who is the Chair of the council area in question has facilitated a meeting with representatives of The Phoenix Motorhome Club at the councils November meeting.
I also believe that The Phoenix Motorhome Club will be giving a presentation to the meeting on the benefits of providing official regulated parking for motorhomes and the economic benefits which can flow from such a venture.

piuswal · 23-10-2014 11:14am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It is a bit odd. I see the area daily and they were never an issue. Now the place hardly has anyone in it so I would guess the owners aren't happy about the loss of revenue.

Nothing is odd when it comes to bureaucrats following the rules and regulations for whatever reason.

The radio interview referred to the fact that some railing was put around the dock for the Volvo Race, how long ago was that?

Presumably it was for crowd control and safety. The radio presenter said there were no fatal accidents -that's my recollection but it may not be precise but I'm sure you get the meaning - since it went up but it must now come down because it does not have the proper planning permission. Something about blocking the view, of whom one might ask?

It was also said that any ships there tower over the railings.

The mentality displayed reminds me of the post WW2 story of a NAZI due for execution next morning; he was a smoker and was asked if he would like a last smoke. On refusing he was asked why. He pointed to the sign in the corridor "Nicht Rauchen"..

So, the railing will taken down, someone will drive into the water and drown, but that's alright, the railing didn't have the proper planning permission.

A long winded story just to remind people of the mentality of some bureaucrats and politicians that one may have to deal with concerning the parking of motor homes.

I've already mentioned that Councillor Geoghegan has said the matter has to be dealt with centrally!!!!!!!

Morgan The Moon · 23-10-2014 6:36pm

This whole aspect needs sensible authoritative research. Many "stelplatz" have huge description signs detailing the cost of the development of the facility. Many have European Funding Assistance to part pay for the project. The stellplatz at "Hitzacker" on the Elbe river does not charge an overnight fee. It is not allowed to because EU Funds were used to develop the site. Motorcaravan users pay for water and electricity if they need it. Grey water and Chemical Toilet emptying is free.

Does anyone have direct access to Luke "Ming" Flanagan.

Within the EU parliament there is a body with direct access to ADAC. They make representations for thousands of Motorcaravan owners. It is my belief and experience that every council or town must have a solution for motorcaravan users to be accommodated.

Unfortunately that can mean that motorcaravans are directed to campsites.

But if no campsite is available or not accessible, ie it is closed the authorities, if they have not a usable solution, would not be able to "move along" or issue a fine etc if a motorhome is legally parked for a period of 24 hrs. Many villages and small towns use this as the reasoning for being considered for EU assistance in developing "Aires" "Stelplatz" "Sostas" or what ever we want to call them. Can someone come up with a good Irish Name,for such a facility. The Funding might come flooding in if the councillors approach this as a necessity to comply with an EU directive. I will try and research as much info as possible and post the results. I will dig out some pics showing the signage, They may be useful in trying to educate the councillors and objectors.

niloc1951 · 23-10-2014 9:17pm

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

.................................................... Can someone come up with a good Irish Name,for such a facility. ..................................

Limistéar Páirceála le Thithe Mótair
or what about
Páirceála Bhaile Mótair

Hopefully someone who is a native Irish speaker will come along and give us a proper translation for Parking Area for Motorhomes or Motorhome Parking Area which ever reads easiest as Gaeilge.

Des32 · 24-10-2014 9:31am

They could be called "fáilte"

campingcarist · 24-10-2014 3:13pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Limistéar Páirceála le Thithe Mótair
or what about
Páirceála Bhaile Mótair

Hopefully someone who is a native Irish speaker will come along and give us a proper translation for Parking Area for Motorhomes or Motorhome Parking Area which ever reads easiest as Gaeilge.

Is that just your literal translation or the correct gaelige for a Motorhome?

CJhaughey · 24-10-2014 10:11pm

campingcarist wrote: »

Is that just your literal translation or the correct gaelige for a Motorhome?

I really don't understand why there is a need to convert to Irish translation, surely Camper parking is universal and well understood by the majority of the camper driving population?
Using a transliteration is kind of twee IMHO.
Flame away if you want, its like Helicopterí or whatever I heard the other day.
Just use the word helicopter if there isn't an Irish word for it.

Morgan The Moon · 24-10-2014 11:15pm

Des32 wrote: »

They could be called "fáilte"

Good idea ! "fáilte páirceála Bhaile Mótair" Maybe ! the welcome !! might get councillors thinking. My experience generally is to float the idea to the local shopowners and small business that would gain from the added potential custom. Bakers, tobacconist, newspapers, gift shops, restaurants and our fantastic pubs. We are customers that do not have to worry about driving home !!

The anti Motorcarvan brigade need to be informed that we have money to spend, it doesn't matter how much at any one time. The spend is constant, every day. Most of us have seen the "sleepy little French Village Aire" it is very rare to pull up and be on your own !!

If we had these opportunities here the whole country would benefit.

Lets try to stop using the term "wild camping" unless your in the field, up a mountain, with your tent and backpack.

Specifically in Galway, many "marinas" in Europe have realised the MH's require the same needs as "visiting yachts". Many charge a small fee, it helps with their overheads. Do any of the councillors own shops or a boat / yacht ? To allow MH parking in the marina may just help Galway conform to EU regulations requiring to provide designated parking solution for "any type of visiting vehicle".

Does any body know how the parking of coaches / tour buses are facilitated ?

Remember we are not "camping", we are parking. This terminology has already been described by nilloc, he is absolutely correct and the term is also now defined on "Wikipedia" as is the terms "aire" "stelplatz" etc. If on this forum we can come up with an acceptable Irish Term, we could submit it to be included in "Wikipedia". We could then inform RTE and others as to the recognition of the existence of the "Irish" facility.

Morg

gozunda · 24-10-2014 11:37pm

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

... If on this forum we can come up with an acceptable Irish Term, we could submit it to be included in "Wikipedia". We could then inform RTE and others as to the recognition of the existence of the "Irish" facility.

Morg

I would put forward the word "Stad" as a fairly good acceptable irish term for designated motorhomes parking. Relatively easy to pronounce - it is also easily spelt and would be easy to spot for visitors whose English/Irish language skills might not be perfect. Translated it means to draw up / stop and is used in connection with other terms such as 'stad cuairte' meaning a port of call for boats etc. (Aire in French simply means 'area')

Edit: 'Aire' in Irish translates as 'danger'!

I agree that a rebranding of the whole motorhome image would be a good idea. There is an existing perception that Motorhomes have unfortunately developed imo. Whilst this may be relegated to rogue individuals who really don't give a damn about where they park / dispose of waste or cause other issues unfortunately these issues have cast a long shadow on all motorhome activity. I know this came up in discussion before and there appeared to be little willingness to accept that this could be the case. ( and I had my head chewed off to boot for daring to suggest same!) However placing ones head in the sand either is not going help. From what I can see it does look like tighter regulations will come in to cover some of these issues.
Of interest presuming the likes of Youghal and other towns do provide designated motorhome parking - what if anything are other motorhome owners willing to pay for such services?

Morgan The Moon · 25-10-2014 12:19am

CJhaughey wrote: »

I really don't understand why there is a need to convert to Irish translation, surely Camper parking is universal and well understood by the majority of the camper driving population?
Using a transliteration is kind of twee IMHO.
Flame away if you want, its like Helicopterí or whatever I heard the other day.
Just use the word helicopter if there isn't an Irish word for it.

You are right, but if we convinced the "Anti Brigade" there may be some way of a town or village getting funding to provide what is our right. Using the "Irish" angle may just open some minds into thinking we are worth supporting.

Morgan The Moon · 25-10-2014 12:30am

gozunda wrote: »

I would put forward the word "Stad" as a fairly good acceptable irish term for designated motorhomes parking. Relatively easy to pronounce - it is also easily spelt and would be easy to spot for visitors whose English/Irish language skills might not be perfect. Translated it means to draw up / stop and is used in connection with other terms such as 'stad cuairte' meaning a port of call for boats etc. (Aire in French simply means 'area')

That sounds good to me, lets see if others agree. Morg

Of interest presuming the likes of Youghal and other towns do provide designated motorhome parking - what if anything are other motorhome owners willing to pay for such services?

That may be a problem, if we are honest we would all like it for nothing. Some are for nothing in other EU countries and some are for small modest fee's. The worst are "campsites" jumping on the bandwagon and offering overpriced unsuitable services in many instances.

Morg

CJhaughey · 25-10-2014 12:33am

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

You are right, but if we convinced the "Anti Brigade" there may be some way of a town or village getting funding to provide what is our right. Using the "Irish" angle may just open some minds into thinking we are worth supporting.

Would it not be easier to work with areas that already support Motorhoming then try and convert the unwashed?
If you could get funding for Cobh or Midleton or Dungarvan to put in better facilities it would show Galway and the small minded individuals in a poor light.
Easier to work with than against etc etc.

Morgan The Moon · 25-10-2014 12:45am

CJhaughey wrote: »

Would it not be easier to work with areas that already support Motorhoming then try and convert the unwashed?
If you could get funding for Cobh or Midleton or Dungarvan to put in better facilities it would show Galway and the small minded individuals in a poor light.
Easier to work with than against etc etc.

Again you are right but "branding" seems to be the in word with certain "purse string holding pen pushers" if using anything available to get them to "think" they have a new idea, do any of us really care what the facility is called !

Morg

piuswal · 25-10-2014 12:52am

Delighted to see more users making the case.

The economic argument has been made to most businesses in Dungarvan.

The response was underwhelming, unless they have lobbied their Councillors and just not responded to my email.

However a representative of the Phoenix Club will be making the total case to Dungarvan and Lismore Councillors prior to their November meeting.

From what I've read of their(Phoenix Club) viewpoint and heard what the rep had to say on Galway Local Radio I've no doubt that the best possible case will be made,

I'm not sure if they were aware of the EU angle but no doubt it will be used if considered suitable.

Nonetheless I feel the more that canvass the local Councillors, email addresses provided in an earlier pots, the better.

gozunda · 25-10-2014 7:46am

Morgan The Moon wrote: »

That may be a problem, if we are honest we would all like it for nothing. Some are for nothing in other EU countries and some are for small modest fee's. The worst are "campsites" jumping on the bandwagon and offering overpriced unsuitable services in many instances.

Morg

I agree also its nice to have free facilities however the disposal of waste / water / rubbish I believe should be covered if used. The other important point is that some form of cover charge will likely keep out more permanent residents that may wish to avail of said facilities.

CJhaughey · 25-10-2014 8:44am

gozunda wrote: »

The other important point is that some form of cover charge will likely keep out more permanent residents that may wish to avail of said facilities.

Maximum length of stay, same as Aires in France.

Galway Harbour Company has banned Motorhome Parking

Comments