Fianna Fail calling for a debate on gun crime

Sparks · 17-04-2014 1:28pm #1

Now this would be something to worry about, given the upcoming local elections and the desperation for anything to point the public at to distract them from all the fun things like water taxes, garda bugging and so forth:

Darragh O'Brien (Fianna Fail)

...
I wish to roundly condemn the brutal murder of a 40 year old man at 8.45 a.m. this morning in Ballymun, outside a national school. I wish to convey my condolences to his family on this brazen attack. Only two weeks ago in the Clongriffin area a man was shot outside a crèche and he has since died. The perpetrators deserve everything they get. My party, Fianna Fáil, has previously called for a dedicated Garda unit to tackle gun crime in Dublin city and county. It would be appropriate to have a debate after the Easter recess. I have called regularly for debates on policing but I call for a debate on the specific area of gun crime. The number of murders has escalated over recent months. The annual GRA and AGSI conferences have heard calls from gardaí on the possible correlation between the shortage of gardaí in the traffic corps and the increase in the number of road deaths in certain areas. It should be ensured that the Garda Síochána is provided with every resource necessary to tackle these people - I use that word very loosely - who carry out these crimes in the middle of the day or early in the morning. They shoot down their victims in cold blood and it is happening only four or five miles from here. It is deplorable and I ask the Leader to consider having a debate.

...

Ivana Bacik (Independent)

Like Senator Darragh O'Brien, I condemn the shooting that took place today outside a primary school in Ballymun in broad daylight. It is shocking to see another shooting carried out in such a brazen fashion. It deserves condemnation. We may seek a debate on crime and criminal justice, while recognising that legislation alone cannot prevent that kind of shooting from occurring. It would be good to have a broader debate on the criminal justice system after Easter.

...

Michael Mullins (Fine Gael)

I join with Senator Darragh O'Brien in sympathising with the family who lost a loved one this morning in very violent circumstances. I support the call for a debate on gun crime. The number of violent deaths in Dublin is increasingly worrying, as is the number of firearms being used in robberies down the country. Gangs, many of whom originate in Dublin, come down the country and terrorise vulnerable people in their homes and businesses.

I congratulate the gardaí in Galway who over the weekend apprehended a group, mainly from Dublin, who had carried out a significant number of robberies in the west in recent days. It is good to see that at least some of them have been taken out of circulation. We need a debate in this House on crime, particularly serious crime involving firearms.

So far, just noise in the seanad calling for a debate and normally it'd amount to naught (they call for debates on everything from foreign policy to what knot to teach kids to use when tying shoelaces), but between the shoutiness over the review annoying the Minister for Justice, and the sheer silly season stuff in the news, and the proximity of the local elections and MEP elections, this could be a start to something more unpleasant.

cathalomurchu · 17-04-2014 2:27pm

We should all chip in and load our guns on a pallet bound for Syria, they'll have better uses for them there.

Sparks · 17-04-2014 2:35pm

They'd just ship them back asking for something more usable...

bumper234 · 17-04-2014 2:41pm

I wonder why they didn't call for these debates when they were in office

http://www.cso.ie/Quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=cja01c1.asp&TableName=Homicide+Offences&StatisticalProduct=DB_CJ

2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013
01 Homicide offences 98 126 138 132 89 88 89 66 79 80
0111 Murder 30 52 62 77 50 56 53 42 53 51
0112 Manslaughter 15 13 8 7 5 4 5 3 7 4
0113 Infanticide 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
012 Dangerous driving leading to death 53 61 68 47 34 28 31 21 19 25

BattleCorp · 17-04-2014 2:46pm

I've no problem with them discussing gun crime, if that's actually what they end up discussing.

We are not part of those gun crime figures and hopefully those TD's will be informed of this fact if they call to any of our doors.

cathalomurchu · 17-04-2014 2:48pm

haha!

This could be a big problem and wipe out firearms as a whole in Ireland. The general public doesn't realise all the hoops we just through the legally get a firearm. They just see a gun on RTE and immediately think the hunter down the road must be a psycho killer with a double barrel laser killing machine. We really should put up a bigger fight and have one main organisation as a voice for the community(although different argument completely). We're one step away from Australia. Next they'll be banning nerf guns because "its a bad influence on our kids" The government doesn't like its citizens armed and history clearly portrays that. The Irish people need to stop being such pushovers. Obviously we will never have something like the 2nd amendment but even something like Slovenia or Sweden would be nice.

When I first got into the sport what really boggled my mind was the fact you couldn't practice "dynamic shooting" immediately I said, " Well isn't that what airsoft is?" The government seems to have no problem with that.. This country is backwards beyond belief IMO.

bumper234 · 17-04-2014 2:49pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've no problem with them discussing gun crime, if that's actually what they end up discussing.

We are not part of those gun crime figures and hopefully those TD's will be informed of this fact if they call to any of our doors.

I dare say they will bring up the "spate" of robberies from owners/dealers over the years. They are just looking to get out there again pre-elections.

Sparks · 17-04-2014 3:04pm

Could always just give them something useful to shout about I suppose:

Sparks, to the senators listed above wrote:

Firearms legislation and a debate on gun crime in Ireland

Senators,
In Tuesday's Order of Business, you spoke of calling for a debate on gun crime. While I personally think anything that fights crime has value, in the case of gun crime the Oireachtas has a long, long history stretching back over more years than any of us have enjoyed, of seeing debates on gun crime lead to new firearms legislation in the form of Acts amending the Firearms Act.

Thus far, this has resulted in the Firearms Act becoming a palimpsest document comprising over twenty seperate Acts (only about half of which are actual Firearms Acts and not all of which stem from the Department of Justice), sixty or more Statutory Instruments governing commencements of parts of these Acts, regulations, fine details of the policies involved and amendments to other Statutory Instruments (not all of these Statutory Instruments stem from the Department of Justice and as you know, the indexing and cross-referencing of Statutory Instruments leaves much to be desired in Ireland), and of course there's the influence of two EU directives and much case law to consider as well.

The end result of all this layering is that in this country, there are maybe three to four dozen people who have a working knowledge of the Firearms Act. That's including the Department of Justice, the Attorney General's office, the Gardai (both their Ballistics unit and their Firearms Policy Unit), the other members of the Firearms Consultation Panel, and those members of the legal profession who have taken related cases to the various courts. Having been involved for the last decade in the writing of the firearms act at one remove or another, I can tell you that there are probably no true experts in this section of the law in Ireland at all because of this scattering of text across the statute books.

The law is so convoluted and so hard to follow that in 2004, the Law Reform Commission called for a restatement of the Act into one document as a priority (and it was acknowledged as such by the Minister of the day, though this was never followed through on and remains undone). This call was made before several major additions to the palimpsest which have made the situation even worse than it was in 2004. More recently, Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court judgement McCarron-v-Kearney stated that "the piecemeal spreading over multiple pieces of legislation of the statutory rules for the control of firearms is undesirable. Codification in that area is almost as pressing a need as it is in the area of sexual violence."

I would urge you Senators, that if you do call for legislative reform as a result of this debate, you first call for the existing law to be restated under the Statute Law (Restatement) Act 2002 because until we actually see what the law currently looks like - warts and all - we cannot really debate changes to it. This is indeed a more pressing issue than that of whether or not the current law grants the powers to the Gardai that they require to tackle gun crime, because that is one of the very few things in the Act that we are sure of even through the layering of texts; though the average Garda may not be fully aware of what powers they have to call on because of the lack of a single, clear document detailing firearms law in Ireland.

Yours Sincerely,

BattleCorp · 17-04-2014 3:28pm

I did something a little bit more simple.

I emailed them explaining the difference between a licenced, law abiding firearm owner (such as a target shooter) and a scumbag with an illegal gun.

I also pointed out to them which of the two groups above are not going around doing the shootings.

I welcomed the debate on gun crime but hope that law abiding firearms owners wouldn't be the focus of the debate as we aren't the problem.

Maybe a waste of time but I had to get my speak in.

Sparks · 17-04-2014 3:47pm

Either way would work if they'd listen. Gotta stress that it wouldn't be something to panic over just yet - it's at the keep an eye on it stage rather than the go to the clinic and talk about withholding votes stage. Especially given that they're all on holidays as of today until May and this might just be a "make noise before the hols" sort of thing.

1shot16 · 17-04-2014 5:23pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I emailed them explaining the difference between a licenced, law abiding firearm owner (such as a target shooter) and a scumbag with an illegal gun.

I also pointed out to them which of the two groups above are not going around doing the shootings.

No matter how strict the gun laws get even banning every single gun wont make a difference to the scumbags going around doing the shootings as they will still have their illegal guns and the law abiding citizens will suffer as usual.... :mad:

They need to tackle this problem in an other way other than banning more guns...

yubabill1 · 17-04-2014 5:26pm

Of course, it's always easier for people who make laws for a living to draft new ones, when they need to be seen to be doing something.

That would be fine if the new laws were targeted at the people causing the problem.

When you run out of ideas, or you can't do any more in legislation, then you make a new law that merely looks like you're doing something.

On another note, don't be surprised if minister shatter is in Dept of Public Works legislating on drains or something, rather than firearms after Philo goes to Europe and any cabinet members manage to get on the gravy train with him in the EU elections.

He didn't turn up at the AGSI conference (and the Garda Reserve graduation before that), so I presume he's been told to keep quiet.

BattleCorp · 18-04-2014 11:58am

Fair play to Senator Michael Mullins. He went to the bother of replying to my email.

Dear xxxxxxxxxx,

Many thanks for your correspondence.

I wish to assure you that I do not put law biding target shooters in the same category as the criminals I spoke about in the Seanad. I have no desire to damage your sport , and in fact I have some good friends who compete regularly in National competitions. My only targets are the criminals.

Kind regards,

Michael.

Senator Michael Mullins.
Leinster House,
Dublin 2.

Sparks · 18-04-2014 12:46pm

Dear Sparks,
Many thanks for your interesting correspondence.
I intend to pass this on to the Minister for Justice for his consideration.
Kind regards,
Michael.

Not what I'd have called a response really. Kinda makes me think this really is a "make noise before the holidays" thing.

EWQuinn · 19-04-2014 2:19am

So if Mr. Mullins does not have the numbers, give him something regarding who is committing the gun crime and where they get their guns. I can guess that very few if any crimes are committed by licensed hunting rifles and handguns by law abiding owners. Many don't want the truth, but if one is open to it and could use the info, get it in their hands. However I understand that the facts may be difficult to gather.

tac foley · 19-04-2014 10:00am

The problem is here in a nutshell -

They can take guns away from people that have them legally

They cannot take guns away from people that have them illegally.

We are the easiest of targets - licensed, documented with names, addresses and every detail needed to walk up to your front door with the big black plastic bag, ready to take your guns off you.

It was done over here in 1988, and cost about twenty thousand law-abiding citizens their semi-autos and the sport of practical rifle that they were used in - I had seven, total value around £20,000.

And again in 1998, I had more handguns than I care to think about, total value again exceeding £20,000. Many ended up in Oregon with my cousins. This time it cost 57,000law-abiding citizens their multi-discipline sport.

tac

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Fianna Fail calling for a debate on gun crime

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