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What's your ideal vision of the EU?

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  • 29-05-2008 9:03pm
    #1
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭


    Europe that is! - Not the Lisbon Treaty campaigning :D

    Are you happy where the EU is at the moment? Beaurocracy aside.

    Is it too integrated or not integrated enough?

    Personally, I'm happy with the EU staying as it is - an economic and social union. They can keep the military and megastate aspirations to themselves as far as I am concerned.

    Thoughts?

    Edit: why can't you put in polls here?
    Here's the options I was going to put in:

    Where should EU integration stop?
    1. No EU integration
    2. Economic Union
    3. Economic & Social Union (current)
    4. Economic, Social and Military Union (after Lisbon)
    5. Total political union
    6. Something not in these options


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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Where should EU integration stop?
    1. No EU integration
    2. Economic Union
    3. Economic & Social Union (current)
    4. Economic, Social and Military Union (after Lisbon)
    5. Total political union
    6. Something not in these options

    I think you are overstating the impact Lisbon will have. After Lisbon there still will be no 'military union' a lot will have to happen before that is possible. First of all a unanimous decision will have to be made in the council, I know you've stated before that Ireland could just abstain but every other country would have to vote in favour. This is unlikely to happen any time soon as Sweden, Austria and the UK are dead against. Now you could argue that these countries could also abstain and let the others get on with it but I think that an EU military which does not include 17% of the population would be politically unviable in other member states.

    I am actually for military integration of the EU for much the same reasons Scofflaw is. As well as better equipment for peacekeeping. I am not for a full federation as I don't think it's in anyone's best interests.
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I don't think I mentioned US influence? The EU already serves as a good counterweight to the US through the use of "soft force" (diplomacy, trade, and money). I wouldn't be particularly interested in building up a "Cold Peace" system for the sake of it, where the EU and the US both use military force, although I've no objection to the EU being at least known to be able to back itself.

    No, I'm keen on the multilateral control for the same reasons the EU exists in the first place. Maybe I had a slightly different upbringing to others, in that I went to a semi-military public school in England. The militaristic nationalism of the old EU Powers isn't dead, so the more the militaries of the EU get entwined with each other the happier I'll be. I'm in favour of the EDA for the same reason - part of its mission is to make the EU militaries complementary, rather than each nation retaining a full-spectrum force. The more that happens, the more EU forces can only operate with each other rather than against each other. They still don't like each other, and Europe is still the part of the world that has dragged the world into its fights, and generated heaps of corpses piled many millions high.

    The accession countries have only just regained their freedom, and they have swelling nationalist and ultra-nationalist movements, plus thousands of old scores to settle. Again, maybe a lot of posters don't remember a Europe dominated by the Iron Curtain and military juntas in what are now holiday destinations, but I do - it's only 30 years gone, and the end of the last ruinous bloodletting only 60 years. You'd be fools to think it's not possible simply because nearly everybody's shagged a continental European.

    I know, I know, it sounds alarmist, but 50 years is not a long period in European or world history. Integration of EU military forces under multilateral control makes a lot of sense, for all the suspicion it inevitably generates. Pacifism at any price is not an acceptable stance when we know how high the butcher's bill can be.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #3
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Ok, so if you could decide, what form (if any) would your ideal European Union take? Federation? Tight/loose confederation? One big free trade area and no more? Status quo?


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    #4
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    The Lisbon treaty will make the EU pretty close to my ideal vision of the EU. There are a few things I would change. I would've preferred the constitution as it would have been one document that was easier to read than multiple treaties. I would also like to see the commission change completely to one that is more like a cabinet of ministers made up of a prime minister elected from MEP's by MEP's and that they would select the commissioners. But I accept that in the current political climate that is not practical. EU wide parties need more time to fully emerge and to become more united and distinctive. I would say that will take 25 years or so for proper parliamentary parties to evolve.

    I would also like them to scrap the Strasbourg and Luxembourg parliaments and keep all governing bodies in Brussels. It such a waste of money and energy moving the entire parliament every month.


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    #5
    Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    Threads merged and topic changed to reflect it.


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    #6
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    My ideal EU is where im Emperor of Europe.

    Seriosly though, a union of nations and NOT a union of citizens. Robbing phrases from P.ie, but I would like a situation where smaller countries have a lot more control per head that big countries do. But I am Irish, so I would think that.


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    #7
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    Frankly, in this country most of the benefits we have to champion came from the EU, in spite of much mismanagement by our own Governments. i'm all for further integration of the existing member states, but i don't want to see further expansion any time soon. we're already stagnating; sort out the current crop first. in particular though i would like to see movements made towards some fiscal integration. tentatively at first mind.

    I also find people's attitude towards military integration slightly strange, considering how close economically we are. championing neutrality given such a context baffles me. should the EU as a whole not be in a position to defend itself should it need to?


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    #8
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    What bizzare country is going to invade the EU??? And if the EU was invaded, Nato would intervene.


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    #9
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    China might. But there would be no military union without such major arms manufacturers as Britain and Sweden out of the loop.


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    #10
    Benfatto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Benfatto


    Strange how people are talking about a 'counterweight to the US' or 'to pressure Russia and China', what kind of militaristic cold war talk is that?

    Unions like the EU will only bread more conflict instead of peace. Conflicts within and outside the union. I'm surprised that in Ireland with its history of forced union with the UK people are babbling about a strong union.

    What we need is disintegration into small states as big as your municipality, with direct democracy as in Switzerland, a militia like army and no economic barriers. Look at Switzerland, it works very well. Only then you will get peace and prosperity.


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    #11
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Benfatto wrote: »
    Strange how people are talking about a 'counterweight to the US' or 'to pressure Russia and China', what kind of militaristic cold war talk is that?

    Unions like the EU will only bread more conflict instead of peace. Conflicts within and outside the union. I'm surprised that in Ireland with its history of forced union with the UK people are babbling about a strong union.

    The EU is considered to be better at soft skills, ie negotiation.
    What we need is disintegration into small states as big as your municipality, with direct democracy as in Switzerland, a militia like army and no economic barriers. Look at Switzerland, it works very well. Only then you will get peace and prosperity.

    I think I'll just pass on this although I am having flashbacks to the Middle Ages.


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    #12
    Benfatto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Benfatto


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The EU is considered to be better at soft skills, ie negotiation.

    Ah, like the soviet union you mean?

    is_that_so wrote: »
    I think I'll just pass on this although I am having flashbacks to the Middle Ages.

    Take a holiday to Switzerland, it's a nice country, really.


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    #13
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Benfatto wrote: »
    Ah, like the soviet union you mean?




    Take a holiday to Switzerland, it's a nice country, really.

    You have either completely misunderstood me or are so entrenched in your "confused" world view that I'll leave you with it.


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    #14
    FruitLover
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    Benfatto wrote: »
    I'm surprised that in Ireland with its history of forced union with the UK people are babbling about a strong union.

    Oh Christ, mods, is there any chance we can have an Irish equivalent of Godwin's law that kicks in any time someone brings up the 800 years of oppression etc etc blah blah? I'm sick to my back teeth of it.

    :rolleyes:


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm just afraid this will happen


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    #16
    Benfatto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭Benfatto


    FruitLover wrote: »
    Oh Christ, mods, is there any chance we can have an Irish equivalent of Godwin's law that kicks in any time someone brings up the 800 years of oppression etc etc blah blah? I'm sick to my back teeth of it.

    :rolleyes:

    I guess 82 years of freedom is enough to wipe it out of the collective memory


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    #17
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Benfatto wrote: »
    I guess 82 years of freedom is enough to wipe it out of the collective memory

    How many people are alive still from either side of the conflict? I wonder what they would have to say about it when they look at the progress we've made in recent years.


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    #18
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    As outlined elsewhere, I'd like to see an EU where
    1) Citizens of each member state have the option of petitioning with N signatures to have a referendum on anything (N being large enough to avoid niusances)

    2) The EU offers opportunities for co-operation on an opt-in basis only


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    #19
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    I would like to see a very strong confederation with the trappings of a federation, but with some things such as the power to declare war still in state hands.

    I admire the system of the US (the system, not the parties or the polititions!), and I think the EU should try and emulate a number of things about the US. Its constitution, for instance, which tells the government what it can and cannot do, would be a welcome addition to the EU in my eyes, as the governments think they have a right to interfere in the affairs of private citizens in the name of the "common good".

    I would like to see a double majority voting system similar to the one proposed, but I think a simple majority instead of the 55%/65% would be more democratic.

    I would like to see a simple written EU constitution which makes all previous treaties obsolete which limits government power.

    I would like a system of law similar to Germany and the US, where each state makes its own laws, provided they are in keeping with the constitution, and where the ECJ can strike down any law deemed illegal.

    Of course I accept this would be impossible right now, we're not ready. Europe isn't ready. I think 40 years is a realistic timeframe to aim for this. There is more I could say, but why go into detail? All I'll say is yes, the above reduces sovereignty, yes it affects neutrality, yes it might "force" abortion, gay marriage, and euthanasia on us. That is why I would support this type of EU; it "forces" petty conservative countries to give people their rights.

    I will now accept flames.


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    #20
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    my ideal vision of the EU...


    hmm

    I dont know, initially I was strongly in favour in the EU as a predominantly economic structure and having no influence in other areas. encoruaging growth across the EU and spreading finances around to the benefit of all member states.

    Its still that very strongly at its base.

    that was when I was fourteen.

    I have since been in favour of spreading that wealth to new nations with the enlargment and I embraced the EURO as a means to improve economic exchange between member states.

    though I felt the UK opting out of the EURO heavily damaged its benefit to us (or is it them?)

    I like its current (and the proposed lisbon structure) because it doesnt put power into any singuler area, its very evenly spread between the EU as an institute itself, the governments of each and finally the people.

    I have felt though that the beuracracy at times can be very finicky in being very strict in wording and political correctness, but as it is an institute between 27 states its understandable that things like the *banana* incident occured.

    I like the EU, I like the expansion, and while I do not expect nor wish Ireland to be militarised in any way, I have visited the balkans and east europe and I can understand the need for the EU to ensure the need to rearrange the military power to ensure that the newer states can have the protection of the EU and also that they wont drag us into something none of us want a part of.


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    #21
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    My ideal vision of the EU, is of one "supernation" like the USA. :o


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    #22
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    democrates wrote: »
    As outlined elsewhere, I'd like to see an EU where
    1) Citizens of each member state have the option of petitioning with N signatures to have a referendum on anything (N being large enough to avoid niusances)

    2) The EU offers opportunities for co-operation on an opt-in basis only

    Exactly! True democratic accountablity would really make the EU a forward visionary and role model for similar groups in Africa, Asia and South America.

    It's a pity that after lisbon the heads of the european union (commission president, president of europe, foreign minster) will not be directly elected which makes the idea of europe being a role model very questionable indeed.:(


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    #23
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    Benfatto wrote: »
    What we need is disintegration into small states as big as your municipality, with direct democracy as in Switzerland, a militia like army and no economic barriers. Look at Switzerland, it works very well. Only then you will get peace and prosperity.
    That sounds like ancient greece. How peaceful!


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    #24
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    FionnMatthew wrote: »
    That sounds like ancient greece. How peaceful!
    Strawman job. It sounds like modern Swtzerland, have a go at the actual target ;)


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    #25
    FionnMatthew
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭FionnMatthew


    democrates wrote: »
    Strawman job. It sounds like modern Swtzerland, have a go at the actual target ;)

    Nope. Sorry. I persist. A Europe of Switzerlands sounds like a recipe for Ancient Greece.


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    #26
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    FionnMatthew wrote: »
    Nope. Sorry. I persist. A Europe of Switzerlands sounds like a recipe for Ancient Greece.

    Agreed Switzerland is one of the most xenophobic countries in Europe.


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    #27
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    Agreed Switzerland is one of the most xenophobic countries in Europe.
    Really? Surely Germany,Italy and any country with a fascist dictator in the past would also be examples


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    #28
    VoidStarNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Really? Surely Germany,Italy and any country with a fascist dictator in the past would also be examples

    Not any more. The germans put a lot of effort into being the opposite of what they were 70 years ago.


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    #29
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    VoidStarNull wrote: »
    Not any more. The germans put a lot of effort into being the opposite of what they were 70 years ago.

    Point taken but yet we have right wing parties ruling Germany and Italy and the *rehousing* program in Italy of Roma people at the moment doesn't exactly look like being a million miles away


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    #30
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Point taken but yet we have right wing parties ruling Germany and Italy and the *rehousing* program in Italy of Roma people at the moment doesn't exactly look like being a million miles away

    The have very right wing parties in power in Switzerland now!
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054932.stm


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    #31
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    The have very right wing parties in power in Switzerland now!
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7054932.stm

    But yet the Swiss had one of their direct votes very recently (i'll find a link if I must) about making their immigration laws more strict which was comprehensively rejected.

    I don't think the link being made between xenophobia and direct votes is actually valid.

    Edit: here's a link Herald Tribune

    You see that's the great thing about direct democracy on certain very important issues. When people vote for a representative they're not mindreaders and when issues like this turn up they want direct say.
    I sincerely wish the EU was heading more in this direction. Pity.:(
    Link wrote:
    The people clearly said: 'We don't want xenophobia and we want direct democracy to respect basic rights


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