Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Denialism,Pseudo-Skeptics - Disillusoned, intellectually lacking or dishonest??

Options
  • 03-03-2010 10:53am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭


    Not sure whether to post this in A&A, or Skeptics. (Or perhaps even Pop Science?)
    (Or after hours?:p)

    Each time I see a media report regarding, in particular, science I find myself hard pressed to find one that actually represents the science it's supposedly reporting. Indeed, in scientific issues that have a political movement associated with them (AGW,Creationism/Evolution,Vaccinations) the standard of reporting usually stinks. People are misquoted, taken out of context, quote mined and, it seems, one media outlet parrots uncritically what another says without checking anything. I'm not just referring to tabloids here. Though, I must admit I find it terrifying that tabloids are allowed to spout such nonsense as they tend to have the larger volumes of uninformed audiences. Science is pretty much the only topic I have enough interest and background knowledge of to know whether the reports are accurate. It makes me wholly wonder whether anything written about anything by certain journalists is even in the slightest bit reliable - is it solely a science and religion thing?. If it isn't, I can't help but think of that as being an absolute disgrace, but, hey, such is life.

    Right, now that the ranty bit is over with. I cannot help but find it amazing that humans are so capable of spouting nonsensical crap. Take deniers of any form for instance (evolution,climate,HIV etc) if you look at their arguments, they always follow a similar pattern : Conspiracy, BIG science, no scientific consensus, political movement, religion etc etc. HIV denial is harmful to human health and does cost people their lives. However, given that the WHO regards Climate Change as the biggest threat to human health (unsurprising really) it's pretty much the denialist movement in Climate science that are ultimately going to be the most harmful. Hence, why I'm paying more attention to these guys.

    I understand that most of them probably have political or corporate reasons to deny the science, but it's not just them I want to understand : Why on earth, do ordinary independent people get so easily roped in by the nonsense? In particular the pseudo skeptics, those who haven't got a ideological motivation or bias but seem to think that the strawman arguments presented by the denialist community actually hold water as a science. To take a very common everyday examples :

    Scientists said there would be no snow as the earth warmed up.


    Anyone who even thinks critically about that should see the obvious flaw in that statement that you'd really have to wonder if scientists are such idiots. Who knows, maybe they are? But I can't see such a statement in a peer reviewed journal ;). Of course the pseudo skeptics seem to get the impression that that was what the scientists claimed. There are tonnes of ****ty arguments out there that are on par with creationist junk science but that doesn't stop people from spouting them. It's ok for most of us as we can simply choose to ignore them after they've being presented for the 55th time, but for climate scientists they have to debunk the nonsense again and again and again and again... pretty much wasting their valuable time in the process. More so, climatology like evolution has gaps, but as Climate is evidently so important it is vital that we fill as many gaps as possilble. The denialist movements is really an awful impediment to filling these vital gaps. If a contrarian gets a paper published (they usually cry censorship if it's blocked) then some poor soul has to waste their own time in doing a step by step rebuke of the papers which arguably should never have been published. The biggest loser though is the genuine skeptic who publishes a paper that is well written,well presented and not full of gaping errors and/or scientific strawmans but it doesn't get the attention it deserves because of the more vocal dissidents who basically waste everyone times by having them to correct the same crap over and over.

    Right-eo, I went slightly off topic there but the point of all this is that denier and pseudo-skeptics aren't a rare breed. The problem, I have though is ascertaining whether they are being deliberately ignorant and dishonest, or whether they're just disillusioned and suffering plain old confirmation biases. By the way, my main way of distinguishing between a skeptic and a pseudo one is that the latter seems to have the balls to pass a quotation in mainstream media as scientific statements. If you haven't met one of these people in real life, then I really really envy you as right now I'm surrounded by em. They're all over the internet but that I can easily ignore; it's the everyday people that I can't! If they're being dishonest then obviously communication is a waste of time. If they're disillusioned what do you think is the best way to free them of it? Even more so though, how can I discern whether they're being honest or not?

    I used climate science as an example in the OP, but really this applies to all forms of pseudo quackery.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Unbiased reporting is pretty much impossible, theres always some influence somewhere. Its an ideal to strive towards.

    I think youre better off to take whats written in any paper, definitely anything on telly and anything on the radio and most things elsewhere as being social commentary and not news reporting as such. Theres information there but you get the news yourself by reading through the lines, looking at all sides and digging a little deeper if necessary. People have go to stop taking this stuff at face value.

    Edit: What makes people give these stupidly wrong statements like the snow one you mentioned? In the media world its probably sensationalism that takes top spot, in the Iona Institute world its conformation bias I'd say. There's a fair amount of denialism in both worlds I'm sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Right-eo, I went slightly off topic there but the point of all this is that denier and pseudo-skeptics aren't a rare breed. The problem, I have though is ascertaining whether they are being deliberately ignorant and dishonest, or whether they're just disillusioned and suffering plain old confirmation biases.
    [snip]
    If they're being dishonest then obviously communication is a waste of time. If they're disillusioned what do you think is the best way to free them of it? Even more so though, how can I discern whether they're being honest or not?

    I think a bigger question is does it really matter what they are?

    Firstly, because I thinks its impossible to be entirely one or the other (If they are dishonest, then they are disillusioned to the damage they are doing; if they are disillusioned, then they end up dishonest if they dont take heed of people pointing out how they wrong, which they invariably do).

    Secondly, I think the real problem is not the people spouting crap, its the people taking it in. There will always be people taking ****e in every subject, if nothing else then to just hear their own opinion, what is wrong is most of those listening have no idea how to discern good points from bad. In terms of pseudo science, even up to third level science education, no one really explains the scientific method, or the peer review process, you are just taught how to pass exams. Even in general, people dont know how to recognise bad types of arguments (for the first while on this forum, I had to keep going looking up things like "Strawman Argument" and "Ad Hominem Attack" as i had never heard of them before).

    People need to learn critical thinking and how to recognise bad arguments. People need to learn the difference between a scientist and the scientific method, that anyone can call themselves a doctor or a scientist, but it doesn't mean that they are keeping to the scientific method.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    18%2Btimes%2Bthe%2Bspeed%2Bof%2Blight%2Bspace%2Bshuttle%2Bcolumbia%2Bmotivational%2Bposter%2Bposters%2Binspirational%2Bfunny%2Bdemotivational%2Bhot%2B%2Bwww.motivationalpostersonline.blogspot.com.jpg

    Science reporting in popular media, you don't need a degree in physics to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    18%2Btimes%2Bthe%2Bspeed%2Bof%2Blight%2Bspace%2Bshuttle%2Bcolumbia%2Bmotivational%2Bposter%2Bposters%2Binspirational%2Bfunny%2Bdemotivational%2Bhot%2B%2Bwww.motivationalpostersonline.blogspot.com.jpg

    Science reporting in popular media, you don't need a degree in physics to do it.

    I don't watch TV any more, let alone TV 'news' for just these reasons. Sickening drivel these days. If it's not "What is nine meters in English?*" it's "Now we go to Sally, who is with little Timmy, the boy who is sad about his cat. What's the situation on the ground Sally?"

    * This actually happened during CNN's reporting on the Chilean earthquake and (relatively minor) Tsunami. They had a guest scientist on the show who was (quite correctly) using metric measurements. The ignorant troll of an anchorman responded with the above question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Zillah wrote: »
    I don't watch TV any more, let alone TV 'news' for just these reasons. Sickening drivel these days. If it's not "What is nine meters in English?*" it's "Now we go to Sally, who is with little Timmy, the boy who is sad about his cat. What's the situation on the ground Sally?"
    It's worse than that -- the way that US anchors speak with their reporters is encroaching here too. If you watch closely, you'll see a lot of the following kind of exchange which backfoots the reporter completely:

    Anchor: And now to Charlie Chaffinch who's at the scene with little Timmy. <turns to video to the left, leans back in chair> Charlie, I gather little Timmy is heartbroken after the fire-engine which came to rescue Tabby the cat, rolled over and killed Spot, his adorable little puppy, leaving a large red and furry stain on the driveway, traumatizing four of the firemen who are now on their way to the hospital which is on fire on following that terrorist attack.
    Charlie: Er, yes. Timmy, how do you feel?
    Timmy: Waaaaahh!
    Charlie: Thanks, Timmy. Charlie Chaffinch, somewhere in the 'burbs. Now, back to the studio.
    Anchor: Thanks for that Charlie. And now for the weather report, where there's a 75% chance of precipitation. In the south. Bob?

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst




  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig



    Let's give em the benefit of the doubt that that was just a blue screen coordination error of judgement because otherwise...that's just...well...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Let's give em the benefit of the doubt that that was just a blue screen coordination error of judgement because otherwise...that's just...well...

    They had a gigantic touchscreen display for that. This is the same guy who asked for meters to be translated into English.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Zillah wrote: »
    They had a gigantic touchscreen display for that. This is the same guy who asked for meters to be translated into English.

    *Ignores Zillah's depressing post in denial.*
    -Blah blah not listening-
    What wrong's with asking for something in metres, not everyone speaks the same arrogant elitist language you do?


    None of this post is meant to be taken as serious statement by Matly_T


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Actually, rewatching the segment I saw with the touchscreen, I'm not sure if it's big enough to be what we see in the Hawaii location video. It may very well have been a bluescreen.

    (This is the one, by the way. Bless that scientist for his patience and quick thinking)


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean



    Off topic, but the recommended videos section on that video recommended this.

    On topic; Pseudo science drives me bonkers. Like Malty's reference in the OP about global warming. I hate the way people seem to think that because there was snow this winter global warming can't possibly be real. Deniers like to perpetuate the myth that global warming says the world is getting hotter and hotter (in a sort of steady chronological order it would seem), when in reality it is more to do with extreme weather patterns. Heck, over the top snow and ice strikes me as evidence in favour of global warming. It's pretty extreme weather.
    Sadly, the everyman is of the opinion, "Global warming? I'm effing freazing!"

    Also, who doesn't know what a meter is? Have these people never read a book about dinosaurs?!?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Pseudo science drives me bonkers.
    Every somebody says "You know, I'm really sceptical about everything!", I die a little bit inside.
    Galvasean wrote: »
    Like Malty's reference in the OP about global warming. I hate the way people seem to think that because there was snow this winter global warming can't possibly be real.
    You can't win.

    "Global warming" was the early stock phrase until it was replaced -- at the behest of political consultants to the US Republican Party -- with the less-threatening "Climate Change". Now that the climate appears to be behaving a bit more edgily recently, the new phrase is ignored and the unthinking vent against the old phrase instead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    robindch wrote: »
    Every time somebody says "You know, I'm really sceptical about everything!", I die a little bit inside.You can't win.
    You can't really be certain of that, can you?


Advertisement