Charities

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 7:17pm

mattjack wrote: »

MQI

87% services
9% admin
4% fundraising

I'd be surprised if that 87% for services didn't include salaries, expenses etc. The charity will say these are the costs of delivering the services. In the case of MCI this may well be genuinely true, i don't know them so i can't say. But because there not giving a full breakdown we don't know.

There's nothing to stop a charity saying we spend 87% on "services" and for this to include CEO's bonus which would be justified as part of the cost of delivering the service. Nobody checks charities in Ireland to see what's actually happening beyond what they decide to tell us.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 7:33pm

boo3000 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that 87% for services didn't include salaries, expenses etc. The charity will say these are the costs of delivering the services. In the case of MCI this may well be genuinely true, i don't know them so i can't say. But because there not giving a full breakdown we don't know.

There's nothing to stop a charity saying we spend 87% on "services" and for this to include CEO's bonus which would be justified as part of the cost of delivering the service. Nobody checks charities in Ireland to see what's actually happening beyond what they decide to tell us.

There is a charities act now and you did say you've worked for one of the biggest in Ireland so its a bit of a surprise you saying you never heard of MQI ..

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 7:39pm

mattjack wrote: »

There is a charities act now and you did say you've worked for one of the biggest in Ireland so its a bit of a surprise you saying you never heard of MQI ..

Yup the same charities act that isn't being implemented because of a lack of funding and i had referred to this situation earlier. So as far as i know the situation remains the same in that we're depending on these charities to self-regulate and I for one have no faith whatsoever in this.

And i didn't say i never heard of MQI i said i don't know them. I can't comment on their honesty or the quality of service they deliver.
I think i've been quite fair in saying that i don't know anything specific about MQI or Troacaire. I also can't name the charity i did work for because i know full well i'd be sued if i did!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 8:15pm

Here's a pretty good article on what's happening with the charity act:

http://www.boardmatchireland.ie/uncategorized/full-implementation-of-charities-act-will-not-happen-soon/

Of particular interest:

"Whilst enacted in February 2009, the majority of the provisions have not yet been implemented.
Of these provisions that have not come to fruition, the most noteworthy are: the call for the creation of a Charities Regulatory Authority, the creation of a Charities Register, revamping the law surrounding fundraising activity and the creation of a Charities Appeal Tribunal."

My understanding is that the charities regulatory authority was the group that would inspect charities and the charities register was where charities would have to publish accounts. Neither of these has happened so were left with a code of self-regulation that a lot of charities haven't even signed up for.

While I won't comment on specific organizations I have no faith in the majority of large charities in Ireland to self-regulate.

christmas2012 · 11-07-2012 8:20pm

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 8:34pm

I think a full boycott is the only way things will change in the foreseeable future. It doesn't seem that there is any incentive for the charity sector to change and they seem unwilling to do so anyway. From the same article, the minister discussing charities signing up to a voluntary code of practise:

"Whilst I would like to publicly acknowledge the fundraising charities that have signed up, the overall level of take-up thus far does not demonstrate the genuine hunger for regulation that representatives of the sector have always asserted exists.”

mattjack · 11-07-2012 9:22pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

Just for once , can you stop bringing CE/jobbridge/TUS into a thread.
Charities dont pay tax .. we know that.No charity is there to make a profit and where do they run with huge amounts of money ? What on earth are you talking about with warehouse charges
The charity I work for buys its own equipment,pays its few full time staff, offers paid sessional work to its CE and volunteers , has no company cars , doesn't feed us , the expenses it pays are staff travel costs ..

mikemac1 · 11-07-2012 9:23pm

Donate to Crumlin Childrens Hospital

I already did through my paypacket, James Reilly has over 13 billion to spend

Sorry

Charities are for specific areas the State can't or doesn't manage, not hospitals

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 9:44pm

mattjack wrote: »

JNo charity is there to make a profit and where do they run with huge amounts of money ?

I think the problem is you can't prove this. There's is no accountability amongst Irish charities. At present there is nothing to stop executives in Irish charities paying themselves massive salaries, bonuses, expenses etc. They don't have to run anywhere with the money because it's all technically legal even though it is morally disgusting.

FAS wasn't there to make a profit either and look what happened there.

Nobodies saying that the charity you work for isn't 100% above board the problem is the lack of transparency and accountability means the system is wide open for abuse.

foxinsox · 11-07-2012 9:47pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

Charities are running away with a huge amount of money,they get off some tax aswell,ive seen the way ''charity shops'' run for instance,they get out huge amounts of money,the clothes they get in stock they dont have to pay warehouse charges on,and they get pure profit by the time those clothes hit the floor,not to mention all the free labour ce workers they have on the floor!Its 100% profit!

Have you seen all these charities accounts ?

Have you seen the way all charity shops are run ?

Pure profit ? How much is that ?

You should really state some examples or facts to back up such ridiculous generalisations in your post.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 9:58pm

boo3000 wrote: »

I think the problem is you can't prove this. There's is no accountability amongst Irish charities. At present there is nothing to stop executives in Irish charities paying themselves massive salaries, bonuses, expenses etc. They don't have to run anywhere with the money because it's all technically legal even though it is morally disgusting.

FAS wasn't there to make a profit either and look what happened there.

Nobodies saying that the charity you work for isn't 100% above board the problem is the lack of transparency and accountability means the system is wide open for abuse.

There really is no correlation between Fas and a charity.Fas and its escapades are well documented.

I can't prove it ... but do you really think there are legions of people earning massive salaries ,expense's etc .. if you are going to employ people expecting them to bring a skill,talent or an ability to do a particular task .. surely paying them appropriately is a given
I 'd agree with you .. there maybe a few who do abuse what's there.
I'm now employed by a second charity and the only company vehicle I,ve seen was a battered 8 year old van.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 10:16pm

foxinsox wrote: »

Have you seen all these charities accounts ?

I don't think he can see these charities accounts because most charities don't publish there accounts or if they do a very vague version.

mattjack wrote: »

There really is no correlation between Fas and a charity.Fas and its escapades are well documented.

I can't prove it ... but do you really think there are legions of people earning massive salaries ,expense's etc .. if you are going to employ people expecting them to bring a skill,talent or an ability to do a particular task .. surely paying them appropriately is a given

I think there a number of clear similarities between FAS and the large charities in Ireland. Both are publicly funded and not accountable to those that fund them. You can argue a distinction between charitable funding and government funding but a lot of charities also receive a lot of direct government funding to provide services.

As regards salaries I don't think your point stands. In a charity the salary won't be set by the same market forces as it would be in a business. If charities published how much they pay in salaries the public and/or a regulatory body could determine whether they are suitable. As it stands we don't know how much salaries/expenses/bonuses charities pay because they don't tell us, so it is wide open to abuse.

I do think the majority of people who work for charities are decent and honest. I think and this is based on my experiences, that a culture exists in the larger charities of looking after the needs of executives often to the detriment of those the charity is supposed to be helping.

I could be wrong maybe there all fine apart from the charity i worked for, but i do think if a system is ripe to be exploited it will be. It is clear the Irish charity sector is there to be exploited.

jaja321 · 11-07-2012 10:19pm

boo3000 wrote: »

So can you show me how Irish charities are held to any sort of standards? Truth is Irish charities operate as private businesses once they've obtained charitable tax status they are answerable to nobody. They don't have to publish their accounts (and largely don't) or show that their spending the money in any kind of a worthwhile way. I'm sure there's some honest charities doing a great job but by and large i think it's a license to print money. We have essentially no accountability and if im correct the legislation to provide some degree of public transparency has been put on hold.

That i know of the rest of the western world has some sort of system of public accountability in place but we don't. It's sounds incredible but Irish charities can do whatever the hell they want and if you look into it, it seems some clearly have the attitude of just lining their own pockets.

Having worked for one of the large Irish charities i wouldn't give a penny to charity in this country because it's so open to abuse. It's a shame because I think the longer this situation continues the less people will be inclined to give to charity, so those that genuinely want to do something or need help will be neglected or ignored.

So because you worked for one bad charity they are are terrible? Seems unfair.

The point I was trying to make is that too often overheads are the go to point for criticism about charities - but what we should be focusing on is whether the staff are competent and professional, is the organisation delivering, is it accountable and transparent etc etc...

The Charities Act as far as I know is being delayed because of Govt inaction - charities actually want it enacted - the recent launch of the Code of Conduct on Corporate Governance was attended by over 600 people, with many having already signed up. At the launch pressure was put on the Minister to prioritize the Charities Act. Many overseas aid agencies are also already signed up to the Dochas Code of Conduct on Corporate Governance and do publish their accounts annually - I can think of one who was key in developing the Statement of Guiding Principles of Fundraising (part of the Charities Act) and who have won the annual award of the Leinster Society of Chartered Accountants several times for their standard of published annual accounts. Irish Aid are doing a lot of work with the aid agencies they work with to ensure good corporate governance - and where it is not good, they are applying pressure.

I don't think its fair to paint all with the same brush. Many are eager to keep their good names as public trust is their most valuable asset.

foxinsox · 11-07-2012 10:24pm

I tried to multi quote but made a complete arse of it.

I get what you are saying about the accounts. I would love to see really strict regulation on charities operating in Ireland.

I do believe that there are SOME charities that may be not completely honest and take advantage of their charity status.

But it annoys me when people sometimes lump all charities into the same kind of carry on. It is very unfair on charities who operate all above board with as little overheads as possible.

:-)

ahnowbrowncow · 11-07-2012 10:33pm

foxinsox wrote: »

I tried to multi quote but made a complete arse of it.

I get what you are saying about the accounts. I would love to see really strict regulation on charities operating in Ireland.

I do believe that there are SOME charities that may be not completely honest and take advantage of their charity status.

But it annoys me when people sometimes lump all charities into the same kind of carry on. It is very unfair on charities who operate all above board with as little overheads as possible.

:-)

Should you not be more annoyed with the charities that give all charities a bad name instead of "when people sometimes lump all charities into the same kind of carry on".

Charities wasting money on ridiculous wages that should actually be spent on helping people is not on and the more people that voice their discontent the sooner something will be done.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 10:39pm

boo3000 wrote: »

I think there a number of clear similarities between FAS and the large charities in Ireland. Both are publicly funded and not accountable to those that fund them. You can argue a distinction between charitable funding and government funding but a lot of charities also receive a lot of direct government funding to provide services.

Ok, I can see your point here,and I know some bigger charity's receive up to 70/80% of funding from the HSE , but I do know some now are being asked to reapply for funding every year, justifying it , funding is not just handed over unconditionally .A lot employ staff on contracts year by year.
I doubt any charity would survive on public funding alone.
Fas honestly was a disaster ,but to compare it to large charity's is a little unfair ... for the life of me I cant see Fas management in the same light as charity management.

As regards salaries I don't think your point stands. In a charity the salary won't be set by the same market forces as it would be in a business. If charities published how much they pay in salaries the public and/or a regulatory body could determine whether they are suitable. As it stands we don't know how much salaries/expenses/bonuses charities pay because they don't tell us, so it is wide open to abuse.

Well where I work employs various types of staff from project workers,nurses,counsellors, training officers etc none are paid outrageous wages

I do think the majority of people who work for charities are decent and honest. I think and this is based on my experiences, that a culture exists in the larger charities of looking after the needs of executives often to the detriment of those the charity is supposed to be helping.

I could be wrong maybe there all fine apart from the charity i worked for, but i do think if a system is ripe to be exploited it will be. It is clear the Irish charity sector is there to be exploited.

I think these might be the operative words .. your own experience is bad , but that hardly should tarnish every charity.Suggesting the Irish charity sector is ripe for exploitation is a little disingenous.

foxinsox · 11-07-2012 10:43pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

foxinsox wrote: »

I tried to multi quote but made a complete arse of it.

I get what you are saying about the accounts. I would love to see really strict regulation on charities operating in Ireland.

I do believe that there are SOME charities that may be not completely honest and take advantage of their charity status.

But it annoys me when people sometimes lump all charities into the same kind of carry on. It is very unfair on charities who operate all above board with as little overheads as possible.

:-)

Should you not be more annoyed with the charities that give all charities a bad name instead of "when people sometimes lump all charities into the same kind of carry on".

Charities wasting money on ridiculous wages that should actually be spent on helping people is not on and the more people that voice their discontent the sooner something will be done.

Annoyed... Not really into getting more annoyed, it won't change anything if I'm more annoyed.

That's why I said:

I would love to see really strict regulations on charities (all) operating in Ireland.

I reckon that would sort it out fairly quick. If all charities had to show full accounts publicly, the people who donate would very clearly be able to choose wisely which one to give their money to.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 10:45pm

jaja321 i think your really only giving me more examples of self regulation. I'm not basing this all on my own experiences, there have been a number of accounts of less than ethical behaviour from charities throughout the world. Other countries have brought in systems of accountability and regulation which might not be absolutely effective but are a step in the right direction. We haven't.

Your blaming the government for this but regardless any charity in Ireland can publish their accounts and open their work to the public in some form. From what i can see most don't, especially amongst the large charities where most of the money goes. This makes me suspicious.

I don't buy this thing of trusting an organization just on the grounds that it calls itself a charity. I don't think i'm being overly cynical either. I happen to believe that most people are essentially good, honest, etc. I believe that if a system can be easily exploited for large profit it will be.

jaja321 · 11-07-2012 10:53pm

boo3000 wrote: »

jaja321 i think your really only giving me more examples of self regulation. I'm not basing this all on my own experiences, there have been a number of accounts of less than ethical behaviour from charities throughout the world. Other countries have brought in systems of accountability and regulation which might not be absolutely effective but are a step in the right direction. We haven't.

Your blaming the government for this but regardless any charity in Ireland can publish their accounts and open their work to the public in some form. From what i can see most don't, especially amongst the large charities where most of the money goes. This makes me suspicious.

I don't buy this thing of trusting an organization just on the grounds that it calls itself a charity. I don't think i'm being overly cynical either. I happen to believe that most people are essentially good, honest, etc. I believe that if a system can be easily exploited for large profit it will be.

In the overseas charity sector, with which I am more familiar, most charities do publish their accounts in fairness. I don't trust any organisation just cause they say they are a charity either - everything and everyone should be questioned. The banks proved that to us. I don't think self regulation is the way either - but until the government pull the finger out that's all we have. For now. In my experience most charities want this legislation to guide them, it would actually be a really useful tool for them.

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 10:53pm

mattjack wrote: »

Suggesting the Irish charity sector is ripe for exploitation is a little disingenous.

I really don't think so. I think it's very clear that it's ripe for exploitation. There really is no system of regulation or accountability, if im wrong on this please show me.

Also im not basing this entirely on my own experiences. I have seen a charity where these practices occured. I know the conditions are the same for other charities. I have seen plenty of other accounts of unethical behaviour in unregulated charities.

Also, very few charities publish detailed accounts or allow public inspection, why?

Also, human nature, a system that's easily exploited will be.

So not just my experiences, other accounts and basic common sense here too!

christmas2012 · 11-07-2012 10:58pm

foxinsox wrote: »

Have you seen all these charities accounts ?

Have you seen the way all charity shops are run ?

Pure profit ? How much is that ?

You should really state some examples or facts to back up such ridiculous generalisations in your post.

Yes as a ce worker i have seen how they are run,they dont pay those they employ(ie free ce/jobridge/fas workers,mostly fas though),ive seen the money that comes in,as ive been on the till two days out of the week,and the best part of 1,000 comes in(you wouldnt think it)but with all the free charity shop clothing donations,high designer gear,and antiquey bits,they can charge anything from 4 euros to 50 euros,so you see how it can come in..
Ive been there to collect bags on average 6 - 10 everyday,and thats what ive seen thus far since i worked there,i finished up in 2011,and the money they would get in a five day week pure profit is enormous,considering they dont pay the free ce staff,they should be paid workers in that shop!
It all treacles up to the top!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 11:00pm

jaja321 i think we're probably agreed on a lot. I think though that a lot of charities publish overly simplified or misleading versions of their accounts, which i find suspicious.
Also, I don't see how charities need guidance on how to be accountable and transparent. It's simple, you just do it!

jaja321 · 11-07-2012 11:02pm

boo3000 wrote: »

jaja321 i think we're probably agreed on a lot. I think though that a lot of charities publishing overly simplified or misleading versions of their accounts, which i find suspicious.
Also, I don't see how charities need guidance on how to be accountable and transparent. It's simple, you just do it!

The thing is I don't agree that most charities are publishing overly simplified accounts - at least not in my experience.

On your second point - many do, and are! And that is self regulation which you criticized earlier. In any case, legislation can be helpful in assisting in the 'how to'.

foxinsox · 11-07-2012 11:08pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

foxinsox wrote: »

Have you seen all these charities accounts ?

Have you seen the way all charity shops are run ?

Pure profit ? How much is that ?

You should really state some examples or facts to back up such ridiculous generalisations in your post.

Yes as a ce worker i have seen how they are run,they dont pay those they employ(ie free ce/jobridge/fas workers,mostly fas though),ive seen the money that comes in,as ive been on the till two days out of the week,and the best part of 1,000 comes in(you wouldnt think it)but with all the free charity shop clothing donations,high designer gear,and antiquey bits,they can charge anything from 4 euros to 50 euros,so you see how it can come in..
Ive been there to collect bags on average 6 - 10 everyday,and thats what ive seen thus far since i worked there,i finished up in 2011,and the money they would get in a five day week pure profit is enormous,considering they dont pay the free ce staff,they should be paid workers in that shop!
It all treacles up to the top!

You have described your experience with a particular charity you have worked for.

That does not mean that all charities operate in the way you have experienced.

Maybe the "profit" might be going to help whoever/whatever the charity is for?

:-)

mattjack · 11-07-2012 11:13pm

christmas2012 wrote: »

Yes as a ce worker i have seen how they are run,they dont pay those they employ(ie free ce/jobridge/fas workers,mostly fas though),ive seen the money that comes in,as ive been on the till two days out of the week,and the best part of 1,000 comes in(you wouldnt think it)but with all the free charity shop clothing donations,high designer gear,and antiquey bits,they can charge anything from 4 euros to 50 euros,so you see how it can come in..
Ive been there to collect bags on average 6 - 10 everyday,and thats what ive seen thus far since i worked there,i finished up in 2011,and the money they would get in a five day week pure profit is enormous,considering they dont pay the free ce staff,they should be paid workers in that shop!
It all treacles up to the top!

Why on earth did you become a CE worker ? you havent stopped fcukin' moaning about Fas , CE , job bridge and that other term you invented 'job blocker' for the last three months.What the fcuk is pure profit ?

Boo3000 is able to debate and present an argument, you just roll out the same shite day in day out.

christmas2012 · 11-07-2012 11:18pm

I became a ce worker in order to get experience and have a few good references,i did go for ce work,but i didnt know how bad it was going to be in one job i was responsible for pushing a girl out of her job along with two other workers which i complained about and didnt like,i was then transfered to the charity shop to do a bit of ce work there and what i saw there opened my eyes..
I can debate,in my last reply i was just relaying what my experience of ''charity'' was,and weve all seen the huge salaries the ''charity'' CEOS get,so we know where it goes!

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 11:21pm

jaja321 wrote: »

The thing is I don't agree that most charities are publishing overly simplified accounts - at least not in my experience.

On your second point - many do, and are! And that is self regulation which you criticized earlier. In any case, legislation can be helpful in assisting in the 'how to'.

Okay we're disagreed on charities publishing their accounts. It's there for anyone that wants to, to check out a charity they might be interested to see if they can find how much is paying paid on executives salaries, expenses, bonuses and so on.

And i think you'll find there's a difference between self regulation and public accountability and transparency which is what i think most people are looking for. I don't think people trust charities any more.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 11:24pm

boo3000 wrote: »

I really don't think so. I think it's very clear that it's ripe for exploitation. There really is no system of regulation or accountability, if im wrong on this please show me.

Also im not basing this entirely on my own experiences. I have seen a charity where these practices occured. I know the conditions are the same for other charities. I have seen plenty of other accounts of unethical behaviour in unregulated charities.

...I understand that, you've seen some accounts .. there's hundreds of charity's in Ireland not all charity's are the same.

Also, very few charities publish detailed accounts or allow public inspection, why?

Also, human nature, a system that's easily exploited will be.[/B

] Human nature could be also very positive, with people going out and doing beyond what's expected of them.Just because something's easily exploited doesn't mean it will be.Maybe I'm a bit innocent.

So not just my experiences, other accounts and basic common sense here too!

,,

boo3000 · 11-07-2012 11:30pm

I know there's hundred's of charities in Ireland I've only seen some accounts. The problem is I (or anyone else for that matter) can't see what's happening in the other charities in Ireland and what evidence there is makes me suspicious.

As regards human nature, I don't think i'm being overly cynical. There are loads of great people out there and I'm sure many of them work for charities. The problem as i see it is that the charity sector is structured to be far more favorable to those that want to exploit it than those that want to do good.

mattjack · 11-07-2012 11:41pm

boo3000 wrote: »

I know there's hundred's of charities in Ireland I've only seen some accounts. The problem is I (or anyone else for that matter) can't see what's happening in the other charities in Ireland and what evidence there is makes me suspicious.

As regards human nature, I don't think i'm being overly cynical. There are loads of great people out there and I'm sure many of them work for charities. The problem as i see it is that the charity sector is structured to be far more favorable to those that want to exploit it than those that want to do good.

Ok , I can appreciate that...some people in any aspect of society will exploit an angle if they find one.
No harm in being suspicious.

Charities

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