Film censorship in Ireland

BrianD3 · 05-10-2003 7:38pm #1

I have a few questions about censorship in this country.

I believe that the Irish censor maintains a list of prohibited cinema releases and videos/DVDs. Someone posted the list for cinema releases in this forum - what about videos/DVDs? Is there a list available anywhere?

Reason I ask is I notice that the British censor (BBFC) has recently passed several so-called "video nasties" for release. Films such as Driller Killer, The Beyond and Zombie Creeping Flesh have been passed uncut. Others such as Cannibal Holocaust (previously banned altogether) have been passed after cuts. These releases are available from amazon.co.uk. But I'm wondering if they are banned over here? If they are, then I believe anyone importing them into this country would be liable for prosecution under the Video Recordings Act 1989.

There's an excellent site which gives details of cinema and video releases in the UK - what films have been banned/passed, what cuts have been made (if any) the current status of films etc.
www.melonfarmers.co.uk

But I haven't found any info on the web in relation to censorship in this country. Can anyone shed any light on this?

BrianD3

lodgepole · 05-10-2003 8:29pm

Importing with the intention to sell on the Irish market is illegal, importing for personal use is not.

Most of the video nasties that were re released within the last few years on DVD in Britain and Ireland remain heavily censored. Their "uncut" claim comes from the fact that the versions submitted to the censors did not require cutting. Cutting done before this submission has taken place. You probably know all that anyway from Melonfarmers though...

ThreadKiller · 05-10-2003 8:35pm

The films have to be resubmitted here before they can go on release, the reletive expense of this to the probably market is most probably the reason they'd not be done. *** They're all a bit **** now anyway

ObeyGiant · 05-10-2003 8:49pm

Originally posted by BrianD3
I believe that the Irish censor maintains a list of prohibited cinema releases and videos/DVDs. Someone posted the list for cinema releases in this forum - what about videos/DVDs? Is there a list available anywhere?

I pressed the IFCO on this issue, to be told "The National Archives is open to the public between the hours of 10.00 am and 5.00 pm, Monday to Friday - with the exception of public holidays."

Charming.

ThreadKiller · 05-10-2003 8:50pm

Why was "T B H" censored out ? (the irony)

ObeyGiant · 05-10-2003 9:11pm

Originally posted by ThreadKiller
Why was "T B H" censored out ? (the irony)

I would like to think it's been censored because of all the CS players whose entire posts consisted of:

:rolleyes: tbh

I hate those guys.

BrianD3 · 06-10-2003 11:29am

Importing with the intention to sell on the Irish market is illegal, importing for personal use is not.

Are you 100% sure about that? Here's a link to the legislation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA22Y1989.html

And here is the section that specifically deals with importation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA22Y1989S16.html

My interpretation of this is that importation of banned works for personal use is not OK - however I could well be wrong. Does anyone know for sure?

BrianD3

lodgepole · 07-10-2003 1:34am

Originally posted by BrianD3
Are you 100% sure about that? Here's a link to the legislation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA22Y1989.html

And here is the section that specifically deals with importation
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA22Y1989S16.html

My interpretation of this is that importation of banned works for personal use is not OK - however I could well be wrong. Does anyone know for sure?

BrianD3

MMMmmm... Seems I wasn't sure... Thanks for those links, they'll make for interesting reading....

I guess the last thing I can say on this matter, before reading further, is that I have never been contacted regarding the importation of films that were banned here. It is possible that such a law exists for the sole purpose of prosecuting any importers of illegal porn, whether it be hardcore, beastiality or paedophelia. That is, of course,only my opinion. I will read your links further...

Caesar_Bojangle · 07-10-2003 7:39pm

Ffs, I hate it when they place cuts on any film, but especially when it comes to an 18 cert. What’s the point in snipping scenes in an 18 cert film? When obviously the target audience is 18(adult) upwards so should be free to watch what they like.

Andrew Duffy · 08-10-2003 11:10am

The IFCO imposes cuts on 18 cert films to ensure they never get a DVD/video release. For example, about 20 seconds of meaningless dialogue was cut from the film "Crash" for its cinema release. It was hoped that the distributors would not bother to create a cut version of the video specifically for Ireland and simply not apply for a cert. However, I believe that the full version was submitted for a video cert and got one anyway. I remember Xtravision having it, and they aren't the types to stock uncertified tapes.

ThreadKiller · 08-10-2003 11:15am

Andrew - sorry, but... utter crap

Off to see kill bill now will give more detail later

Andrew Duffy · 08-10-2003 2:46pm

Read this before you give more detail:

http://www.iftn.ie/filmireland/issue_58/page2.html

ThreadKiller · 08-10-2003 2:59pm

Read it & once again I say utter crap. That piece is total conjecture, it's an opinion, not fact.

The reason that films are censored is because there are laws as to what is replicatable.
For instance, headbutts are banned & are cut from every release because there's a very strong chance that kids could replicate them & cause serious injury.

Same goes for nunchucks etc. Anything that is easily replicatable & can cause grevious or actual bodily harm is banned automatically. Sometimes in the event of a tragedy co-inciding with the release of a film the distributor may call for a ban (NBK being a case in point).

Other times a film may be banned because it's crap like showgirls

Seamus Smith was one of the most liberal censors in the world, we got to see a lot more stuff than the likes of the UK did.

Andrew Duffy · 08-10-2003 4:01pm

Seamus Smith was one of the most liberal censors in the world, we got to see a lot more stuff than the likes of the UK did

Now that's what's crap. Since Norway has just unbanned all of its 300-odd banned films Ireland is now the most censorious country in the western world, without exception. One would have to look to Singapore or Thialand to find a first-world country with such strict censorship. Of course the UK has stricter censorship than most of the rest of Europe, but you can buy or rent such films as Lars von Trier's The Idiots, the Japanese classic Ai No Corrida and Abel Ferrera's visceral Bad Lietentant, all of which are banned on video here.

I can imagine only two reasons why someone might think Ireland has less strict censorship laws than the UK. Firstly, the guidelines you give about headbutts and nunchaku are BBFC guidelines, and don't apply here. Our last censor, Seamus Smith, did not like to cut movies and tended to give 18 certs to, or ban, films containing excessive violence rather than cut them. Of course, when it comes to video the cuts are almost always decided by the BBFC since no distributor targets Ireland seperately. Often the BBFC cut of a movie does not meet the standards of the Irish Film Censor's Office and it fails to get a release here. Another common occurrence is the distributor precutting the movie to obtain a 15 cert from the BBFC, and still only managing an 18 cert here.

Secondly, due to a legal loophole it is possible for cinema clubs to hold private screenings of unrated movies, so long as they don't attract too much attention to themselves. This is not really possible in the UK, but it is usually unneccessary since very few movies are banned there.

I challenge anyone to give me a single example of a film that was given a general release in cinemas here but not in the UK, or that was certified for video release here but not in the UK.

Andrew Duffy · 08-10-2003 4:11pm

Back to the question asked in the thread, I've also asked for a full list of videos cut or banned, but none is forthcoming. To get an idea of the size of such a list, this Senate speech:

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~maryhenry/debates/adjourn/13june00.htm

...from June 2000 mentions that over 3000 videos have been banned since September 1994. I find it amazing that distributors still bother submitting porn for classification, but there are many legitimate arthouse films in that banned list as well.

ThreadKiller · 08-10-2003 4:41pm

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
Now that's what's crap. Since Norway has just unbanned all of its 300-odd banned films Ireland is now the most censorious country in the western world, without exception.

Conjecture, can you back it up with facts please ?

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
One would have to look to Singapore or Thialand to find a first-world country with such strict censorship. Of course the UK has stricter censorship than most of the rest of Europe, but you can buy or rent such films as Lars von Trier's The Idiots, the Japanese classic Ai No Corrida and Abel Ferrera's visceral Bad Lietentant, all of which are banned on video here.

They're banned for rental but not for sale, a very slight difference, the reason they're not on sale here is that the companies don't go to the hassle of getting a certificate for what would be miniscule sales (particularly with the internet)

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
I can imagine only two reasons why someone might think Ireland has less strict censorship laws than the UK. Firstly, the guidelines you give about headbutts and nunchaku are BBFC guidelines, and don't apply here.

I think you'll find they do

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
Our last censor, Seamus Smith, did not like to cut movies and tended to give 18 certs to, or ban, films containing excessive violence rather than cut them. Of course, when it comes to video the cuts are almost always decided by the BBFC since no distributor targets Ireland seperately. Often the BBFC cut of a movie does not meet the standards of the Irish Film Censor's Office and it fails to get a release here. Another common occurrence is the distributor precutting the movie to obtain a 15 cert from the BBFC, and still only managing an 18 cert here.

We generally get the (pre certified) UK release submitted here, therefore some films just will not get released as they're not submitted in the UK.

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
Secondly, due to a legal loophole it is possible for cinema clubs to hold private screenings of unrated movies, so long as they don't attract too much attention to themselves. This is not really possible in the UK, but it is usually unneccessary since very few movies are banned there.

You're (mostly) correct on that one, cinema clubs can hold screenings of unrated films to members only (under strict criteria), there's absolutly no bearing on attracting attention to themselves. They're a private enterprise the censor has no bearing on this. It is entirely possible in the UK, but generally isn't because the market is entirely different

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
I challenge anyone to give me a single example of a film that was given a general release in cinemas here but not in the UK, or that was certified for video release here but not in the UK.

The Exorcist was released here uncut but required approx 1m of cuts in the UK.

I've worked in the business for close to fifteen years at this point, there's a lot I know about it, if there's anything I can answer for you I'll do my best.

Andrew Duffy · 09-10-2003 11:10am

1) Name a western country with stricter censorship than Ireland. If you reply, don't attempt to ridicule the accuracy of the rest of my post because you disagree with the idea that Ireland is the most vigourous opressor of free expression in the western world. There is much evidence for it, and I haven't yet seen evidence against it.

2) There is no difference in the VRA between rental and sale other than the licence required. Also, these movies in particular are banned here, not just uncertified. There are many other arthouse films certified in the UK but not here because they were submitted and banned, or the distributor has prior experience of the Irish system and never submitted them.

3) We don't have guidelines for acceptable content other than a work that is likely to deprave or corrupt, or a work depicting acts of extreme cruelty to a person is not allowed. If we had guidelines, John Kelleher would have had to justify his (successfully appealed) ban of Spun earlier this year.

4) The UK cert has nothing to do with the cert earned here; many films are certified differently in the UK and Ireland, and a great many that have UK certs do not have Irish certs. Look at the next DVD you rent or buy from an Irish shop; it will have two certs printed on it or a sticker bearing the Irish cert, even if the two are the same. The BBFC processes a massive amount of material each year, and it would be surprising to find a film that is never made available to the UK/Ireland market. A lot of films are, however, illegal in a small part of that market.

5) Have to give you that one; I'm not 100% on the position of cinema clubs in the UK. I know they need a licence, and that the R18 category was introduced in the 1970s to clamp down on clubs showing porn to large audiences, but it was very restrictive until recently. R18 can be applied to a cinema or video release, but since porn cinema is a dead idea and the UK gives 18 certs to arthouse films containing small amounts of sex, it is only used for porn videos.

6) The exorcist was given an X certificate, uncut, for cinema in the UK, and was released, uncut and uncertified (pre-VRA) on video. It was eventually certified by the BBFC in 1999 uncut.
I'm unsure of the story in Ireland. I know it has an 18 cert for cinema, and I think it was first granted for the re-release in 1998 or so. I don't know about video; cdwow.ie sell it so it surely has a cert. Since the VRA here never really outlawed pre-1994 uncertified works, I guess that would mean the film was never really banned on video.

Chad ghostal · 10-10-2003 1:57pm

a agree with most of what your saying But..

1) Name a western country with stricter censorship than Ireland.
Austrailia.. has just about the same censorship as we.. a little worse than the english.. and the two of us do have pretty much the worst censorship of 1st world countries or seriously westernised countries anyways..

also idiots and bad lieutenant(cut) are not banned here.. or if they are then hmv and virgin should be told.. iv seen them in there countless times.. and bought bad lieutenant..

There are many other arthouse films certified in the UK but not here because they were submitted and banned, or the distributor has prior experience of the Irish system and never submitted them.

from what i know alot of the arthouse films dont bother getting a film cert due to the expense and the fact that there will only be a very small audience in ireland.. arthouse cinemas as you say can show uncensored films with membership..

5) Have to give you that one; I'm not 100% on the position of cinema clubs in the UK. I know they need a licence, and that the R18 category was introduced in the 1970s to clamp down on clubs showing porn to large audiences, but it was very restrictive until recently. R18 can be applied to a cinema or video release, but since porn cinema is a dead idea and the UK gives 18 certs to arthouse films containing small amounts of sex, it is only used for porn videos.

they can get a license from the local council to unban a film..
this can also go the other way with the local council banning a film..

cdwow are international and im sure would sell you pretty much anything..

as for importing films.. it probably is against the law but iv never heard of anyone getting anything stopped at irish customs(film wise).. iv a few imported banned films and have never had problems.. even with the name of the film on the front of packaging..

lodgepole · 10-10-2003 6:43pm

Originally posted by Chad ghostal
arthouse cinemas as you say can show uncensored films with membership..

Not necessarily. The IFC were stopped from screening Natural Born Killers when it first came out. They can show certain things that are uncertified, or uncut versions, but they are still at the mercy of our censor.

Chad ghostal · 11-10-2003 1:49pm

your right!!.. as you no doubt know...
what a wierd setup..
you can show films without censorship but well censor you if you show a film we dont approve of..

Andrew Duffy · 13-10-2003 10:50am

Yeah, Australia is a weird case alright. All those screenings of Ken Park being shut down by armed police... If you haven't seen it, the film is boring trash, with a small amount of sex and an ejaculation in it.

About cinema clubs in the UK; do they have to get a licence for each film? Can they show uncertified films that haven't been explicitly banned?

The deal with Natural Born Killers was that the IFC (at the time based in O'Connell Bridge House, wasn't it?) were running a full season, and selling week-long memberships at the door. I think that was silly, even if the film should have been given an 18s cert to start with.

Our man in Havana · 14-10-2003 10:08am

What are the rating given out by the censor?

I see some films rated 15/PG which sounds ridiculous.

James

lodgepole · 14-10-2003 10:17am

15pg means that people under 15 can see the film accompanied by an adult. 12pg refers to those younger than 12.

A 15 film only allows those 15 and over.

Our man in Havana · 14-10-2003 10:24am

does anyone have a complete list of ratings?

ixoy · 14-10-2003 1:35pm

There's no 15s rating anymore - only 15PG. Which presumably means that some films which may have gotten a 15s rating are now pushed into the 18s rating.

There's also: 12PG (under 12s must be accompanied by an adult) and G (General - anyone can get it).

There's no X-rated in Ireland (closest you get is an 18s with explicit warning or unrated movies, like in the IFI).

sceptre · 14-10-2003 1:53pm

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
Can they show uncertified films that haven't been explicitly banned?

AFAIK they can

Film censorship in Ireland

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