Arsenal Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2011/2012

08-05-2012 1:01pm

cson wrote: »

They count for the fact that they we're match winning assists that have us in the position we are at present. .

I agree with that.:D
getting forward so much to get 11 assists, leaving the back door open, has us in the position we are in at present.

Oranage2 · 08-05-2012 1:03pm

It's funny I was looking at last season's point tally and we had

Pos Wins D L GF GA GD Points
3 Arsenal 37 20 7 10 71 47 +24 67 (This season)
4 Arsenal 38 19 11 8 72 43 +29 68 (2011)
3 Arsenal 38 23 6 9 83 41 +42 75 (2010)
4 Arsenal 38 20 12 6 68 37 +31 72 (2009)

So in reality after selling Cesc, Nasri and clichy we're preformed on average the same. And over the last four seasons there hasnt been that much in it.

Not sure what point I'm making.

gnfnrhead · 08-05-2012 1:08pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

I agree with that.:D
getting forward so much to get 11 assists, leaving the back door open, has us in the position we are in at present.

Exactly, because without them we would be sixth at best. Not quite sure why you are trying so hard to make a positive thing, like 11 assists, look like a negative thing.

08-05-2012 1:14pm

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Exactly, because without them we would be sixth at best. Not quite sure why you are trying so hard to make a positive thing, like 11 assists, look like a negative thing.

Just ignore the fact that had he been doing his defensive duties, we may be in a better position?
I just don't like using assists as a reason to big up a player who leaves the team open to being destroyed on the counter attack time after time.

Frisbee · 08-05-2012 1:21pm

Wenger has his system. If we sign M'Vila and drop Song, Wenger will most likely ask M'Vila to do the exact same thing Song is doing now. The problem is in the system, not Song repeatedly going against the managers orders. At least Song can provide end product when he pushes on.

Wenger is happy with the role Song is performing. If he asked Song to be a dedicated defensive midfielder that doesn't stray more then ten yards into the opponents half then I'm sure he'd do that job fantastically for us as well. Just like he did in 08/09 and was close to our best performer that year.

gosplan · 08-05-2012 1:21pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

Just ignore the fact that had he been doing his defensive duties, we may be in a better position?
I just don't like using assists as a reason to big up a player who leaves the team open to being destroyed on the counter attack time after time.

Well what do you want to use?

He's not played as a DMF - he's clearly supposed to be covered on his runs forward.

08-05-2012 1:25pm

gosplan wrote: »

Well what do you want to use?

He's not played as a DMF - he's clearly supposed to be covered on his runs forward.

Well Arteta is clearly better with the ball going forward with regards to ball retention and pass completion, yet he stays back more as a DMF, even though he was more attack minded whilst at Everton.
Has Wenger got it arse about face.?

cson · 08-05-2012 1:41pm

Frisbee wrote: »

Wenger has his system. If we sign M'Vila and drop Song, Wenger will most likely ask M'Vila to do the exact same thing Song is doing now. The problem is in the system, not Song repeatedly going against the managers orders. At least Song can provide end product when he pushes on.

Wenger is happy with the role Song is performing. If he asked Song to be a dedicated defensive midfielder that doesn't stray more then ten yards into the opponents half then I'm sure he'd do that job fantastically for us as well. Just like he did in 08/09 and was close to our best performer that year.

That's pretty close to the mark imo except for the fact that M'vila is a noted DM, its where he's at his best. I don't think that'd fly over Wengers head.

If, and I sincerely doubt it'll happen, we sign him then I'm expecting us to line up some thing like below in midfield when fully fit;

--- Wilshere --- Song

M'Vila

Where exactly that leaves Arteta, Rosicky and Ramsey is anyones guess. It'd certainly mean the end for Diaby and necessitate Frimpong being loaned out.

I'd like to have the headache of signing M'Vila but then we're relying heavily on the flanks for creativity I think, and we need significant improvement there.

@ RVP 11; there are about 15 players more deserving of criticism on this seasons performances than Alex Song. You're showing yourself up badly by directing criticism at him; as I've said he's won us more points than he's cost us this season.

08-05-2012 1:49pm

cson wrote: »

@ RVP 11; there are about 15 players more deserving of criticism on this seasons performances than Alex Song. You're showing yourself up badly by directing criticism at him; as I've said he's won us more points than he's cost us this season.

As you have said, 11 assists has won us more points than he cost us this season, i think you will see we let in a hell of a lot more goals than 11.
Showing myself up?, this is the inter www's, i don't come on here to get thanks and kudos from other virtual users, just post an opinion.
If you don't like it, don't attack me, just ignore my post, simples.

emergingstar · 08-05-2012 1:54pm

I can imagine been away from home and in a tough physical game, our midfield three

Mvila, song, diaby (I no)

That's a powerful midfield

08-05-2012 1:58pm

Most of the Song lovers on here would drop Arteta (proven in the PL for several years) for a midfiled 3 of........
Irresponsible Song, injury ridden and pretty much innefective Diaby, and unproven M'Vila.
Arteta has been our best midfielder this season if you look at stats in relation to position.

cson · 08-05-2012 1:58pm

Right off the top of my head he had match winning assists against Everton, Liverpool and Spurs [x2] as well as one that helped beat BVB and ensured we qualified for the knock outs. That's 9 points won right there, the only times I can remember him directly costing us points were versus QPR [though any number of players failed to track back for the second and Vermaelen was highly culpable for both goals] and Norwich the weekend.

You're allowing a mistake at the weekend to cloud your view of what's otherwise been an excellent season for the Cameroonian. Your post, just in case I wasn't clear originally, that we would be higher up the table if we didn't have Alex Song is frankly laughable.

I don't understand the negativity tbh, we're all wearing the same colours in here.

gnfnrhead · 08-05-2012 1:59pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

As you have said, 11 assists has won us more points than he cost us this season, i think you will see we let in a hell of a lot more goals than 11.
Showing myself up?, this is the inter www's, i don't come on here to get thanks and kudos from other virtual users, just post an opinion.
If you don't like it, don't attack me, just ignore my post, simples.

So every single goal we concede is Song's fault?

08-05-2012 2:01pm

cson wrote: »

Right off the top of my head he had match winning assists against Everton, Liverpool and Spurs [x2] as well as one that helped beat BVB and ensured we qualified for the knock outs. That's 9 points won right there, the only times I can remember him directly costing us points were versus QPR [though any number of players failed to track back for the second and Vermaelen was highly culpable for both goals] and Norwich the weekend.

You're allowing a mistake at the weekend to cloud your view of what's otherwise been an excellent season for the Cameroonian. Your post, just in case I wasn't clear originally, that we would be higher up the table if we didn't have Alex Song is frankly laughable.

I don't understand the negativity tbh, we're all wearing the same colours in here.

When did i ever say if we didn't have him? i said if he were more responsible and i said sell him if he pays for M'Vila, as we have enough midfielders.
I just don't ignore his failings because he has 11 asists, even if a lot of them were wonderful.

emergingstar · 08-05-2012 2:01pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

Most of the Song lovers on here would drop Arteta (proven in the PL for several years) for a midfiled 3 of........
Irresponsible Song, injury ridden and pretty much innefective Diaby, and unproven M'Vila.
Arteta has been our best midfielder this season if you look at stats in relation to position.

If that's aimed at my post I said tough away games, read the post

08-05-2012 2:02pm

gnfnrhead wrote: »

So every single goal we concede is Song's fault?

Most of them are as a result of our defenders moving out of position to challenge someone outside the box because our midfielders cannot get back to deal with them.

gosplan · 08-05-2012 2:22pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

Has Wenger got it arse about face.?

Explain - Wenger doesn't play Song instead of Arteta - Arteta's injured so song is left playing his DMF/CMF role alone. In the last two season's Wenger has always partnered Song with a defensively minded player when possible. Arteta is ever present on the teamsheet when available so I don't get your thinking at all.

RVP 11 wrote: »

Most of the Song lovers on here would drop Arteta (proven in the PL for several years) for a midfiled 3 of........
Irresponsible Song, injury ridden and pretty much innefective Diaby, and unproven M'Vila.
Arteta has been our best midfielder this season if you look at stats in relation to position.

Listen, you're just looking for an argument here ... and it's the same style of nonsense your were spouting when it was all 'wenger out'.

'you are all song-lovers and here's what you think'

I mean what kind of infantile duscussion is that supposed to be?

Stick it up your hole to be honest.

08-05-2012 2:24pm

gosplan wrote: »

Stick it up your hole to be honest.

Nice one.:pac:

Frisbee · 08-05-2012 2:28pm

cson wrote: »

That's pretty close to the mark imo except for the fact that M'vila is a noted DM, its where he's at his best.

Agreed. I think M'Vila would get forward less. But signing him wouldn't mean we'd all of a sudden start playing with an out and out holder in the middle.

The best season Song ever had for us was 08/09 imo. He was an absolute beast in midfield. If asked to be no more than a DM I have no doubt he'd tear shít up in there again.

M'Vila is a good signing and a step in the right direction. But if it's at the expense of Song then I'll be disappointed.

08-05-2012 2:31pm

Frisbee wrote: »

M'Vila is a good signing and a step in the right direction. But if it's at the expense of Song then I'll be disappointed.

It probably won't be, he got a new deal only recently, so i think he is very much in Wenger's plans.

gosplan · 08-05-2012 2:36pm

Frisbee wrote: »

Agreed. I think M'Vila would get forward less. But signing him wouldn't mean we'd all of a sudden start playing with an out and out holder in the middle.

The best season Song ever had for us was 08/09 imo. He was an absolute beast in midfield. If asked to be no more than a DM I have no doubt he'd tear shít up in there again.

M'Vila is a good signing and a step in the right direction. But if it's at the expense of Song then I'll be disappointed.

I'd imagine it's pick 2 from Song/M'Vila/Wilshire/Arteta with the option of picking 2 plus Wilshire if the more advanced position works out for him. Perhaps Arteta could play further forward too.

TBH, it's pointless discussing who we'd play if they were all fit because that never happens.

premierstone · 08-05-2012 2:42pm

gosplan wrote: »

Listen, you're just looking for an argument here ... and it's the same style of nonsense your were spouting when it was all 'wenger out'.

'you are all song-lovers and here's what you think'

I mean what kind of infantile duscussion is that supposed to be?

Stick it up your hole to be honest.

Dont waste your breath gosplan, I'm actually pretty convinced he's not actually an Arsenal fan at all.

Marty McFly · 08-05-2012 2:49pm

gosplan wrote: »

I'd imagine it's pick 2 from Song/M'Vila/Wilshire/Arteta with the option of picking 2 plus Wilshire if the more advanced position works out for him. Perhaps Arteta could play further forward too.

TBH, it's pointless discussing who we'd play if they were all fit because that never happens.

When you look at it like that Song/M'Vila/Wilshere/Arteta now they be options I think most Epl club would be delighted to have to pick between two positions bring it on id say, It could just spell trouble for Diaby/ Coq and Frimpong. But loan out Coq and Frimpong for a season let them gain some experience and playing time and come back stronger and better for the season after. As for Diably Id have no problem letting him go he can be great can be frustrating but either way he barely fit for five mins these days to find out if he can ever fulfil his potential plus hes 25 now.

All that is in an ideal world

Just read an aticle on Vela hes a player ive always liked but Wenger for some reason never had much faith in, but he does have ten goals and and four assists since January so has found form Id have no problem with him coming back. Is it time to let him go or bring him back? I know hes been quoted as saying he sees his future away from Arsenal but probably could be persuaded to stay id imagine.

jordainius · 08-05-2012 2:55pm

RVP11 might have a point about Song in fairness, he has had a decent season with some memorable assists but there are obvious question marks about his effectiveness as a DM, he's no Emmanuel Petit or Gilberto, I'd be more critical of Song but I believe that Wenger is the one at fault for giving him license to roam. It can't be denied that it has cost us dear on many occasions this season. (And previous seasons...)

keano_afc · 08-05-2012 2:58pm

The more bodies we have in midfield the better really, I think Wenger might go back to something similar to a 4-4-2 next season. Having players in there that can play different roles is only a good thing.

We do need an out and out holding midfielder though. Look at the City model, Yaya sits back, protects the back 4 and when things are looking a bit pear shaped they bring on de Jong and he's pushed forward to attack. Thats how we should play Song. No doubt he can play the Hollywood passes (makes it all the harder to understand how he struggles so much with 5-10 yard balls) but his first job should be to protect the back 4 and move forward IF needed. We've lost far too many goals from passes jsut going right through our midfield. IIRC both goals conceded at QPR were back to front passes that completely bypassed our midfield. If M'Vila is coming to plug that gap its a vast improvement.

cson · 08-05-2012 2:58pm

The M'Vila thing looks to have stuck; a lot of media outlets reporting that the deal is done/close to being done/will be done after the WBA match for £17.7m.

Interesting. Hope 2 things; [a] it happens and there's more additions going to be made.

gnfnrhead · 08-05-2012 3:14pm

In terms of players out on loan, I've been reading up on how they have done and came up with the following:

Denílson - Stay/Loan. Sao Paulo only want a loan again, but Arsenal only want to sell. Either way it doesnt seem we are getting rid of him just yet.
Kyle Bartley - Loan. Seems to have struggled this season but has been played out of position. Assuming we dont sell any defenders (Squillaci doesnt count), he should go out on loan again.
Carlos Vela - Gone. ~£5-7m and a sell on clause. He has more or less said he has no intention of returning.
Henri Lansbury - Gone. Wont get much for him but stick in a buy back clause just in case. He has talent, just doesnt seem to be enough.
Joel Campbell - Loan. Needs more time to develop. Showing glimpses but not enough to warrent a place in the first team. If he gets a WP loan him to an English side.
Nicklas Bendtner - Stay. Cant see anyone willing to take him unless he takes a pay cut. It was hard enough to get someone to loan him.
Benik Afobe - Loan. Needs another year or so at least. Barring injury he will likey push for the first team the year after.
Andrei Arshavin - Gone. Hopefully anyway. He has been scoring for Zenit so we should get close to £10m for him.
Ryo Miyaichi - Loan. Started well but has faded pretty quickly. Hopefully its just a settling in period.
Rhys Murphy - Gone. Cant see him doing it for us.
Vito Mannone - Gone. Getting his game for Hull but I dont think he is cut out for Arsenal.
Wellington - Loan. Only 2 goals in 12 games in the second divison doesnt make for great reading.

Other's that I havent heard much about are:
Sead Hajrović
Daniel Boateng
Sanchez Watt
Craig Eastmond
Pedro Botelho
Chuks Aneke
Nico Yennaris
Samuel Galindo

gosplan · 08-05-2012 3:14pm

keano_afc wrote: »

IIRC both goals conceded at QPR were back to front passes that completely bypassed our midfield. If M'Vila is coming to plug that gap its a vast improvement.

Agree. Tbh, they problem is over-complicating in the wrong place and losing the ball when most of our team are in front of it.

For all of Barca's tippy tappy, they never lose the ball anywhere but by the opposition's penalty area and as a result very rarely get caught out. Song and Walcott in particular are criminal for this - it's not that they lose the ball,it's where they lose the ball.

HazDanz · 08-05-2012 3:15pm

keano_afc wrote: »

The more bodies we have in midfield the better really, I think Wenger might go back to something similar to a 4-4-2 next season. Having players in there that can play different roles is only a good thing.

I like the idea of this. A change in formation might freshen things up and give us more versitility and a bit better defensive awarness. The formation we play at the moment is too fragile, the amount of times we get caught way up the pitch with it and bottled necked, and then to be caught on the counter is scandalous.

Podolski and M'vila in the bag. That's pretty impressive if it's true. Getting M'vila finally rids us of the proper DM problem and will make us a much more compact unit.

Delight if the transfer talk is true, could be a massive step forward for the team.

08-05-2012 3:21pm

jordainius wrote: »

RVP11 might have a point about Song in fairness, he has had a decent season with some memorable assists but there are obvious question marks about his effectiveness as a DM, he's no Emmanuel Petit or Gilberto, I'd be more critical of Song but I believe that Wenger is the one at fault for giving him license to roam. It can't be denied that it has cost us dear on many occasions this season. (And previous seasons...)

That's all I alluded to in my post match anger after the 3-3 at the weekend, I don't doubt Songs ability, but cannot overlook the gaping holes he leaves.
When Arteta is in the squad and now Mvila too, I can accept Song leaving his position, so next season will hopefully be less stressfull for us all.

Colonialboy · 08-05-2012 3:25pm

Arent they professional footballers, cant they work it out on the pitch ?
If midfielder 'A' goes forward midfielder 'B' hangs back and vice versa.
Also the centre backs need to be shouting for midfielders to hold position too as should the captain.
Song has made some great tackles and won alot of ball back.
Arsenal just cant defend in general.

The errors Song and many Arsenal players make are trying to force a pass when its not on.

I though it hilarious 'Wengers Way' nearly cost Man City the league.
Did you see Nasri try to walk it into Man Us net from 6 yards out, they then broke down field and nearly scored. Id love if they had scored, just to finally put an end to that walk the ball into the net bollix...

keano_afc · 08-05-2012 3:38pm

I'm still very cautious about M'Vila, lets not forget last summer it looked like we had Mata wrapped up only to blow it. Until I see him holding up the jersey its all just speculation.

Redzer7 · 08-05-2012 3:54pm

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm still very cautious about M'Vila, lets not forget last summer it looked like we had Mata wrapped up only to blow it. Until I see him holding up the jersey its all just speculation.

I'm in the same boat, I refuse to believe anything till Arsenal or M'Vila say so themselves. It'd be great news though.

Frisbee · 08-05-2012 4:02pm

If we were to switch to 4-4-2 we should hold onto Bendtner and Vela imo.

2ndcoming · 08-05-2012 4:04pm

RVP 11 wrote: »

What do they count for if we lose the final game and end up 5th with no CL next season?

That's like saying because Messi didn't win La Liga and the CL his 60 odd goals this season count for nothing. An individual player can only be judged on his merits, Song can be guilty of wandering too far forward for the Makelele style DM that Wenger's been trying to make him into, but at the same time he's a far more naturally creative player than most other DMs are, his assist stats are up there with the Silvas and Bales, and the points they've got us are far more important than the goals he could be implicated in conceding.

cson · 08-05-2012 4:05pm

Vela is quoted as saying he doesn't want to come back to Arsenal, and as you've said numerous times yourself Frisbee, Wenger has shown he doesn't trust him to do a job at all.

Bendtner said he'd never play for Arsenal again.

I'd be amazed to see either of them appear in an Arsenal shirt again.

Edit: Just took a look at Vela's stats for this season; 12 goals and 8 assists in La Liga alone is pretty daycent tbf. Same figures for B52 aren't bad either; 8 goals and 5 assists.

Maybe your onto something Frisbee

Redzer7 · 08-05-2012 4:41pm

IF and that's a big if we sign M'vila and say we got Hoillet would everyone be happy only bringing in 3 new additions to the squad?

I certainly wouldn't.

gnfnrhead · 08-05-2012 4:44pm

Vela never adjusted to England. Thats why he was never able to nail down a starting place for us. He has also said if he doesnt get sold he will make Wenger sell him. He has absolutly no interest in coming back so good riddance for me.

Bendtner would be ok for third choice striker if we stick with one up top. If we play two, we'll ned another striker as I wouldnt fancy having to rely on him for more than a handful of games. He has shown he needs five or six chances to get one goal. I always thought, imagine the amount Henry would have gotten with the amount of chances Bendtner would get each match. Speaking of which, any chance of getting Henry for the season?

cson · 08-05-2012 4:49pm

I'd prefer Matias Suarez over him but considering we'd pay **** all for Hoilett anyway I'd take both. Whatever keeps Gervinho as far away from the team as possible. Might light a fire under Rosicky's arse too.

We're gonna need a Davor Suker esque striker too if we're getting rid of Chamakh and Park and not using Bendtner or Vela next season.

I'd argue for a starting left full and back up right full but that's being a tad greedy I think.

You have to consider the massive clearout we'll have too as opening up wage room and funds themselves for buying players.

Ultimately what you want come opening day of the season 12/13 is a squad of 18 first teamers all fit and able to do a job with 7 youngsters similar to Coquelin ready to be called upon when needed. We've suffered the last few games imo from playing virtually the same 13-14 players the whole season - certain elements of the team looked burned out.

emergingstar · 08-05-2012 4:52pm

Redzer7 wrote: »

IF and that's a big if we sign M'vila and say we got Hoillet would everyone be happy only bringing in 3 new additions to the squad?

I certainly wouldn't.

Yep very happy, would like another cb but if only them 3 came still very happy

Frisbee · 08-05-2012 4:52pm

cson wrote: »

Vela is quoted as saying he doesn't want to come back to Arsenal, and as you've said numerous times yourself Frisbee, Wenger has shown he doesn't trust him to do a job at all.

Bendtner said he'd never play for Arsenal again.

I'd be amazed to see either of them appear in an Arsenal shirt again.

Edit: Just took a look at Vela's stats for this season; 12 goals and 8 assists in La Liga alone is pretty daycent tbf. Same figures for B52 aren't bad either; 8 goals and 5 assists.

Maybe your onto something Frisbee

I don't think either of them will stay, even if we do make the jump to 4-4-2.

But both are much more suited to playing in a 4-4-2 than whatever we've been playing the past few years. Vela has no chance, but I'd like to think there's a slim chance we could hang onto Bendtner.

cson · 08-05-2012 4:59pm

Just to back up my point about the squad; 6 of them have 40+ appearances this season [RVP 47!, 20% of his total appearances for the club during his 8 seasons have come this season] with another 3 closing in on 40. And this considering we were out of all the cups earlier than usual [Carling Cup 1/4s, Champions League 16, FA Cup 5th round].

Really shows how AW hasn't used/trusted his squad this season and thats why I'm saying we need ~5 players in this summer who can contribute.

Ramsey, in his first full season, has 41 appearances. That's insane.

L'prof · 08-05-2012 5:06pm

cson wrote: »

Ramsey, in his first full season, has 41 appearances. That's insane.

It's not really though. Wenger has form for introducing talented players at an early age. Vieira, Fabregas, Walcott & Wilshere all come to mind.

cson · 08-05-2012 5:12pm

Its insane for a guy coming back from a career threatening injury.

newbie2 · 08-05-2012 5:14pm

I think we're gouing to need a new right back. I've a feeling we wont see Sagna playing for the club again.

Frisbee · 08-05-2012 5:16pm

newbie2 wrote: »

I think we're gouing to need a new right back. I've a feeling we wont see Sagna playing for the club again.

I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Redzer7 · 08-05-2012 5:18pm

Scezeney

Sagna - Koscieny - Vermaelen - Gibbs

Song - M'Vila

Walcott - Wilshere - Gervinho

Van Persie

Subs:
Fabianski
Santos
Mertesacker
Arteta
Ramsey
Rosicky
Podolski

Even though it's only 2 changes to the squad it makes it look an awful lot stronger (provided we sign M'Vila). We just really need everyone to stay fit.
There's no reason we shouldn't be able to make a title challenge with that squad except probably playing Gervinho :pac: I'd still love a key attacker like Hazard though. Keeping Van Persie is key though, that goes without saying.

ImpossibleDuck · 08-05-2012 5:19pm

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Bendtner would be ok for third choice striker if we stick with one up top.

You say that, but are you happy with us paying £57k a week to a third choice striker?

cson wrote: »

I'd prefer Matias Suarez over him but considering we'd pay **** all for Hoilett anyway I'd take both. Whatever keeps Gervinho as far away from the team as possible. Might light a fire under Rosicky's arse too.

Yeah because that's exactly what Rosicky needs :rolleyes:

newbie2 wrote: »

I think we're gouing to need a new right back. I've a feeling we wont see Sagna playing for the club again.

Not sure if serious...

EDIT: Whooo! 1000 posts!

gnfnrhead · 08-05-2012 5:19pm

Looking at the list of players who are out of contract this summer and I wouldnt be surprised if Wenger picked up a couple of them. Craig Gordon and Kalou would be good for numbers if we're having the clear out that people seem to be expecting. Raul is also out of contract but was still doing a job in the Champions League this season. Would Wenger give him a year or two? Would definity be an upgrade on Chamakh and Park.

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

You say that, but are you happy with us paying £57k a week to a third choice striker?

I'd rather he get sold, but cant see anyone taking him on those wages. We're probably going to be stuck with him.

emergingstar · 08-05-2012 5:20pm

I think Ramsey is gonna have a big year next year
Also we could loose song, gervinho and frimpong to the African cup of nations. So having plenty of midfield options is a must

Arsenal Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2011/2012

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