RTE's new false advertising promo

ijc · 17-01-2005 11:13pm #1

Did anyone else catch RTE's delightful new promo, directly before Scrubs this evening on TWO? For those Sky viewers who missed it, it was entitled "RTE Sport: Free to Air".
- The absolute cheeeeeeeeeeeeeek!

radiospan · 17-01-2005 11:14pm

Yeah I saw that last week. Sickening.

Round Cable · 17-01-2005 11:22pm

ijc wrote:

Did anyone else catch RTE's delightful new promo, directly before Scrubs this evening on TWO? For those Sky viewers who missed it, it was entitled "RTE Sport: Free to Air".
- The absolute cheeeeeeeeeeeeeek!

You know what? I could support this government, after all the smoking ban and going metric on the roads are good ideas, if they would dissolve the joke of a national 'broadcastor' that is RTE, I can see Bertie in for another few years.

BTW that ad struck me too, I wonder were they talking about analouge?

Tony · 18-01-2005 12:19am

Anyone feel like lodging a complaint with the advertising standards authority for Ireland?

watty · 18-01-2005 9:05am

Yes, of course they mean their poor coverage VHF/UHF AM video service.

They regard Satellite as a "wireless cable" system like Chorus MMDS, so to RTE logic, you ONLY have "multichannel" if you are paying a sub to NTL, Chorus or Sky. In such a case they regard any RTE service as a conveniance.

They don't at all see that you can have Satellite without Sky (You can't have Cable without a Sub after all), nor that Satellite is simply a lower cost delivery medium to the expensive poor coverage analog terrestrial service.

Any complaint to Advertising standards would fail as the *ONLY* non "multichannel" cable system in Ireland (by RTE logic) is the VHF/UHF AM video Analog terrestrial.

Sad but true.

Pal · 18-01-2005 10:30am

RTE sat is a joke.
You pay a license fee for RTE and then you pay again to SKY.

I'm really piffed about this.

Especially since I pay two license fees, one SKY sub and still cannot get RTE in my holiday home.

If I used a PC as opposed to the telly can I withhold their fee ?

DMC · 18-01-2005 10:37am

No, you can't Pal... The law covers that aspect...

As for pay Sky to see RTÉ... as Watty said, its exactly the same as the Cable Co's...

Tony · 18-01-2005 11:06am

watty wrote:

Any complaint to Advertising standards would fail as the *ONLY* non "multichannel" cable system in Ireland (by RTE logic) is the VHF/UHF AM video Analog terrestrial.

Sad but true.

I disagree Watty, any complaint just has to prove misleading or false advertising. RTE cannot assume that anyone seeing the ad is familiar with the technology involved.

I took a similar complaint against NTL many years ago and won.

Widescreen · 18-01-2005 11:13am

Round Cable wrote:

You know what? I could support this government, after all the smoking ban and going metric on the roads are good ideas, if they would dissolve the joke of a national 'broadcastor' that is RTE, I can see Bertie in for another few years.

BTW that ad struck me too, I wonder were they talking about analouge?

Is there another thread to discuss the metric road signs. That must the thickest idea anyone in this country has ever had. We have the worst accident record in Europe per capita, and we decide to put the speed limits in Km/H when practically no cars have speedos equipped to deal with it. It will be at least 15 years before all cars are soley clocked in km/h. How many stupid accidents will have occurred by then...

BrianD · 18-01-2005 2:04pm

Tony wrote:

Anyone feel like lodging a complaint with the advertising standards authority for Ireland?

On what grounds??? RTE is free to air!! There is absolutely nothing false or misleading about it! It's a simple fact. (In any case, it's a station promo and not a "paid for" advertisement so the ASAI would not be able to deal with it.)

In the UK you pay a TV licence to watch TV and both BBC and ITV are classified as free to air - as no subscription is required to watch the programme.

Pal · 18-01-2005 2:12pm

err no.

RTE and ITV are free-to-view (FTV)

There's a big difference

ITV3 is FTA.
BBC is completely FTA (except World and Prime)

Greenman · 18-01-2005 2:55pm

Pal wrote:

err no.

RTE and ITV are free-to-view (FTV)

Are you sure about RTE FTV???

Tony · 18-01-2005 3:01pm

BrianD wrote:

On what grounds??? RTE is free to air!! There is absolutely nothing false or misleading about it! It's a simple fact. (In any case, it's a station promo and not a "paid for" advertisement so the ASAI would not be able to deal with it.)

In the UK you pay a TV licence to watch TV and both BBC and ITV are classified as free to air - as no subscription is required to watch the programme.

not for the first time you have your facts wrong Brian. The advertisemant may lead one to believe that RTE is free to air by whatever means it can be received. I get several calls every day asking for a free to air satellite system to get RTE, some of these calls were directly in response to thie advertisement.

The ASA are concerned with the public perception of an advert

The ASA would deal with this regardless of whether it is paid for or not in the same way as they dealt with my complaint against NTL (which was upheld)

BrianD · 18-01-2005 3:12pm

Pal, I would argue that RTE is free to air and not free to view:

According to the BBC:

What's the difference between 'Free to Air' and 'Free to View'?

'Free to Air' (sometimes know as 'In the Clear') refers to any broadcast that is unencrypted and can be received on any suitable digital equipment. In July last year all BBC services via satellite became 'Free to Air'

'Free to View' refers to broadcasts that although non-subscription are encrypted to protect copyright. To watch a 'Free to View' service, an access card is required that will descramble the signal. Previously the BBC has been a 'Free to View' service, but from 10th July 2003 it became 'Free to Air'

Of course, FTA/FTV may vary between delivery platform and the situation is not cut and dry. However, it is universally accepted that RTE's primary distribution outlet is still the terestrial analogue broadcast network. Furthermore, RTE can argue that their terestrial signals can be received in almost every home via the analogue network that it is FTA. Before you say it -there will always be somewhere where no TV signal can be received.

magpie · 18-01-2005 3:15pm

Is there another thread to discuss the metric road signs. That must the thickest idea anyone in this country has ever had. We have the worst accident record in Europe per capita, and we decide to put the speed limits in Km/H when practically no cars have speedos equipped to deal with it. It will be at least 15 years before all cars are soley clocked in km/h. How many stupid accidents will have occurred by then...

See under rec/motors

Round Cable · 18-01-2005 3:19pm

Widescreen wrote:

Is there another thread to discuss the metric road signs. That must the thickest idea anyone in this country has ever had. We have the worst accident record in Europe per capita, and we decide to put the speed limits in Km/H when practically no cars have speedos equipped to deal with it. It will be at least 15 years before all cars are soley clocked in km/h. How many stupid accidents will have occurred by then...

Well as the speed limits in miles per hour and distance is in Km, I think it makes perfect sence, maybe it could lead to less accidents, if people 'check the signs, check the speed'

BTW, I would have tought most cars since the 1980's would have KM/H. Anyway back to the discussion at hand, what's stopping RTE launching FTV cards for satellite?, there are costs, no doubt, but the 3 euro licence fee should go towards that, instead of Ryan Tubridy's/Pat kenny's back pocket.

Pal · 18-01-2005 3:29pm

The satellite board tends to talk about satellite.

( in reply to Brian and his terrestrial FTA theory. Not the road signs guy)

BrianD · 18-01-2005 3:30pm

Tony - wrong, like when? I believe I have been pretty accurate in my postings and stand corrected. I take it you are referring to my postings about VAT payments to Sky Digital. This was never clarified from any posting I have read.

I wonder how many calls RTE get from NTL/Chorus subscribers or is it just Sky Digital subscribers who don't get it??

The ad is not in the slightest bit misleading. The consumer needs to understand that they are paying Sky Digital for the delivery of the television signal that is otherwise FTA. Up to Sky Digital and their various contractors to educate their customers.

ASAI (not ASA) definition of an advertisement:

an advertisement is defined as a paid-for commercial communication addressed to the public or a section of it, the purpose being to influence the behaviour of those to whom it is addressed. It is characteristic of an advertisement that an advertiser pays or rewards a third party for communicating a message

It seems that the "promos" are not governed by this. Perhaps they should, as there have been complaints about adverts for ISP's on their own web sites that are apparently outside the code.

I am unfamiliar with the NTL case but a search of the ASAI web site shows a compaint made by NTL about Sky Digital. The compalaint was not upheld.

Anyway, RTE have their own authority so they can almost do what they like. May change when the RTE Authority and BCI merge in the future.

Superman · 18-01-2005 3:31pm

plazzTT wrote:

Sickening.

well its not that serious, at the end of the day who actually pays the tv license, It's such a bogie, besides if you can get off with only paying a fine every 5-7 years it is a bit better cuase its one lump sum and you don't have the hassle of going to the post office once a year, actually how many people are busted for no tv license each year?

Personally I think RTE/TG4 etc. are great! They generally carry a good bit of material that is interesting and well structured, i don't really like there attempts at drama's etc but things like nationwide, primetime and such are good. And they always get good series first as well things like ER and the OC are always a few shows ahead.sometimes a good few. They've got good cookery program's too.
What i can't believe is that people pay for sky news, such over inflatted british lager lout tripe! It's simply just a tv version of the sun!

Another point its not just a tv-license it benefits lots of groups like the Nat. Symphony Orchestra etc.

BrianD · 18-01-2005 3:34pm

Pal wrote:

The satellite board tends to talk about satellite.

It is probably better under broadcasting but the issue was raised here and is if relevance to "satellite"

Pal · 18-01-2005 4:02pm

whatever Brian.

anybody know where I can buy a sat box for free to air RTE ?

Tony · 18-01-2005 4:14pm

BrianD wrote:

ASAI (not ASA) definition of an advertisement:

an advertisement is defined as a paid-for commercial communication addressed to the public or a section of it, the purpose being to influence the behaviour of those to whom it is addressed. It is characteristic of an advertisement that an advertiser pays or rewards a third party for communicating a message

It seems that the "promos" are not governed by this. Perhaps they should, as there have been complaints about adverts for ISP's on their own web sites that are apparently outside the code.

Well perhaps they have changed their stance on this since the complaint I made (against NTL many years ago) was against a promo and a press advertisement but the ASAI (the asa was a typo but you knew who i meant for gods sake) and they rules on both.

I'm not sure why its not on their website but it was 8 yrs ago maybe thats the reason

I think RTE are being mischevious using the term Free to air as this term was never in use before satellite broadcasting. In any case you must pay a licience fee so its still misleading for them to use this term even to describe their terrestrial broadcasts.

BrianD · 18-01-2005 6:12pm

Well before the evolution of encrypted broadcasts and accelerated availablility of those broadcasts through Digital Satellite everything was effectively FTA. Now that encrypted signals are common on cable and satellite the term is used more and more.

In regard to your NTL complaint, NTL do not have their own channels (apart from the info channel if it still exists) therefore the promo would have been a paid for advertisement on either on TV or the press. You would have then been able to make a complaint to the ASAI.

Argueably the BBC terestrial stations are not FTA either given that a licence fee is paid as well. No term is exact given the changes in broadcasting over the years but FTA can be fairly applied to RTE's broadcast because other than a licence for my television receiver I can watch RTE without a further charge.

I believe that you are right in that RTE have a mischivious use of the FTA sport promo as I believe it is a dig at their new sports competition - Setanta Sports. Given that Setanta has only limited geographic coverage through NTL on a 'FTA/FTV' basis and are subscription channels on Sky Digital and Chorus, RTE are implying that they are more FTA then Setanta are. Furthermore, the competition for the GAA rights is hotting up and RTE are putting down a competitive marker and possibly trying to "educate" the viewing public on the FTA concept

18-01-2005 7:29pm

Ok for once in my life I'm in agreement with Briand on this one.
There are absolutely no grounds for complaint against RTÉ for having to pay to receive them on Satelite.
RTÉ dont pay a red cent to Sky for to be received on their digital platform.
Receiving terrestrial channels on sky digital is a luxury, you get extras with it , like an EPG programme guide, the i and enter button for instant now and next programme details and of course guaranteed top picture and sound quality once your dish is ok.

BBC pay sky to be there out of the licence fee, and ITV do so out of their advertising income.Both of them either have the resources or choose to use their resources to be there.

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to divert existing RTÉ resources to pay sky for RTÉ to be FTA on Sky digital or to increase the licence fee to pay for it. Doing that would also get complaints.
RTÉ *will* and do put up "self help" local transmitters to guarantee terrestrial reception to groups living in areas who cant get decent reception from main tx's.
Thats paid for out of the licence fund.

I think this "demand" and "gimmeh gimmeh gimmeh " attitude by some satelite viewers as regards RTE is just that and a red herring.

The other thing to consider is that the term "free to air" is actually a term RTÉ are using to state that they are providing sports for free which Sky charge extra for.
Their use of the phrase "free to air" is a direct attack on Sky sports and other pay sports channels.

aidan_walsh · 18-01-2005 7:37pm

Earthman wrote:

Ok for once in my life I'm in agreement with Briand on this one.
There are absolutely no grounds for complaint against RTÉ for having to pay to receive them on Satelite.
RTÉ dont pay a red cent to Sky for to be received on their digital platform.
Receiving terrestrial channels on sky digital is a luxury, you get extras with it , like an EPG programme guide, the i and enter button for instant now and next programme details and of course guaranteed top picture and sound quality once your dish is ok.

BBC pay sky to be there out of the licence fee, and ITV do so out of their advertising income.Both of them either have the resources or choose to use their resources to be there.

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to divert existing RTÉ resources to pay sky for RTÉ to be FTA on Sky digital or to increase the licence fee to pay for it. Doing that would also get complaints.
RTÉ *will* and do put up "self help" local transmitters to guarantee terrestrial reception to groups living in areas who cant get decent reception from main tx's.
Thats paid for out of the licence fund.

I think this "demand" and "gimmeh gimmeh gimmeh " attitude by some satelite viewers as regards RTE is just that and a red herring.

The other thing to consider is that the term "free to air" is actually a term RTÉ are using to state that they are providing sports for free which Sky charge extra for.
Their use of the phrase "free to air" is a direct attack on Sky sports and other pay sports channels.

Hear, hear!

Tony · 18-01-2005 7:41pm

BrianD wrote:

In regard to your NTL complaint, NTL do not have their own channels (apart from the info channel if it still exists) therefore the promo would have been a paid for advertisement on either on TV or the press. You would have then been able to make a complaint to the ASAI.

It was inserted by them so deemed to be their broadcast but in any case the complaint was upheld. Its of little relevance to this thread anyhow

Tony · 18-01-2005 7:51pm

Earthman wrote:

There are absolutely no grounds for complaint against RTÉ for having to pay to receive them on Satelite.

Your points are interesting and well made but it still should be acknowledged that the deal RTE struck with sky was bad value. If ITV do indeed go free to air it will put a lot of pressure on RTE mainly i think coming form their advertisers ,and I can see a situation where many home simply do not bother to have RTE.

Apart from the hypocrisy of this particular advertising campaign it must also be acknowledged that the sports coverage on RTe is pretty good considering their limited resources IE premiership on saturdays heineken cup etc.

I would have no objection to paying for RTE on satellite but nobody is paying RTE they are paying sky so no benefit acrues to our national broadcaster apart from guaranteeing that satellite only homes who are prepared to pay can receive it.

Superman · 18-01-2005 7:53pm

It's quite ironic we are spending more time arguing over TV than watching it.

Did any one see the O.C. Last night ? some fierce scandal!

Tony · 18-01-2005 7:55pm

Superman wrote:

It's quite ironic we are spending more time arguing over TV than watching it.

we are debating not arguing

btw whats OC?

18-01-2005 9:38pm

Tony wrote:

it still should be acknowledged that the deal RTE struck with sky was bad value.

I agree with you Tony to an extent.
But remember it wasn't entirely a bad deal for RTÉ.They were faced with 300,000+ homes who were on the sky habit and increasingly lazy about switching back to analogue to watch RTÉ.
This was putting RTÉ under pressure from advertisers especially since Sky were planning selling Irish advertising.
RTÉ had no choice but to come to some arrangement to go on Sky.
If crititism is needed towards RTÉ , let it be towards their slack management throughout the 90's that led them to be bloated and not worthy of a licence fee increase in the eyes of the government.
It was that ongoing slack management perhaps that meant RTÉ werent and still aren't in a position to provide a free satelite service for viewers.

By the way as a side issue,I wonder are ITV paying SKY for their positioning of ITV3 on the Irish EPG?

byte · 18-01-2005 9:53pm

With regards to the ITV3 question, I would think that as the channel is totally FTA, they are just paying a set EPG fee. This would be different if NDS were involved probably

Tony · 18-01-2005 11:17pm

Earthman wrote:

I
But remember it wasn't entirely a bad deal for RTÉ.They were faced with 300,000+ homes who were on the sky habit and increasingly lazy about switching back to analogue to watch RTÉ.

They had the choice to rent a transponder and go FTA, Albania can do it , hell even text dating channels can do it.

BrianD · 19-01-2005 12:15am

I do think RTE struck a bad deal with Sky Digital and should have held out. No matter what you think of RTE it is still a must have channel and indeed a popular channel. If it wasn't on Sky people would still have the rabbits ears connected and in many ways this perceived inconvenience may have slowed the growth of sky in Ireland. People like convenience - for many of us a dual system is fine but for others not.

Superman · 19-01-2005 12:58am

Tony wrote:

we are debating not arguing

btw whats OC?

oops sorry "debating" :rolleyes:

You must of watched the OC, its a newer younger version off melrose place/beverly hills 90210, dare I say it coud be as good as dynasty, Then againn your probly too pre-occupied with bringing rte to the courts and watching all your fancy pants satelite channels to watch TG4 on mon night!

I suggest you watch the OC and prepare to be amazed!

kramlq · 19-01-2005 1:00am

Earthman wrote:

I agree with you Tony to an extent.
But remember it wasn't entirely a bad deal for RTÉ.They were faced with 300,000+ homes who were on the sky habit and increasingly lazy about switching back to analogue to watch RTÉ.
This was putting RTÉ under pressure from advertisers especially since Sky were planning selling Irish advertising.
RTÉ had no choice but to come to some arrangement to go on Sky.

I agree. Out of sight => out of mind.
Prior to RTE going on astra2 and getting Sky EPG placement I dont think I watched it much at all. As well as the 'mode switch' to get back to terrestrial viewing, you also had the problem of bad picture (RTE1), terrible picture (RTE2) and no picture (TG4 & TV3) where I live.

It was that ongoing slack management perhaps that meant RTÉ werent and still aren't in a position to provide a free satelite service for viewers.

RTE management really don't seem to have educated themselves about all the options available with regard to satellite distribution, and Sky really seem to have taken advantage of this ignorance when they met at the negotiating table.

Are the exact details of Sky/RTE's arrangement available publically? They are a publically funded broadcaster after all. They should at least see if their contract permits them to simulcrypt the existing signal and sign a deal with another conditional access provider such as viaccess/irdeto (who seem to do deals with many other public broadcasters on satellite) to provide a FTV card scheme. Surely a scheme like that would pay for itself via card sales.
Sky and NDS (providers of Sky's Videoguard encryption) are too closely intertwined for RTE to ever get a fair deal when setting up a scheme like this.
In the longer term they should try to move the signal to a transponder with a larger footprint to allow ex-pats to avail of such a service as well.

BrianD · 21-01-2005 1:42am

I am sure you can get at least the outline of the RTE agreement under the FoI (though I am not sure if RTE are bound the FoI yet).

The problem with is sat distribution is that "anoraks" and people who really wanted RTE can sort out the dish and receiver and point it in the right direction to get RTE. The vast majority of domestic viewers won't. Sky Digital neatly packaged up this whole DSAT thing into a convenient installed service and charge handsomely for it. To be part of this convenience and platform, I am sure Sky insisted on anexclusive arangement over a period of time.

Macy · 21-01-2005 11:07am

Tony wrote:

I would have no objection to paying for RTE on satellite but nobody is paying RTE they are paying sky so no benefit acrues to our national broadcaster apart from guaranteeing that satellite only homes who are prepared to pay can receive it.

That's the bottom line for me. I'd have no problem paying cost for a FTV Card for the Irish stations (plus the UK FTA Stations on epg

). RTE are the only one's that can drive that being the biggest broadcaster and the state broadcaster.

When we got a FTA Receiver, we watched Irish TV less, since we got a FTV card I'd say it's at least 80-20 split in favour of UK channels. The major factor in that, particularly for the missus, is the quality of reception rather than the quality of the programming.

If the ITV channels go FTA as well, then RTE will have to face up to the reality of the situation...

21-01-2005 11:23am

kramlq wrote:

RTE management really don't seem to have educated themselves about all the options available with regard to satellite distribution, and Sky really seem to have taken advantage of this ignorance when they met at the negotiating table.

I'd guess that they are / were fully aware of all the opportunities and options.
They just took the easy option, in the knowledge that they were avoiding the more painfull one ie grasping the nettle that is their ineffeciency.
Finding the money in a climate where the government wouldnt grant a licence increase only if there were trimmings on the bloat was too painfull for executives.
They have the best of both worls now in their eyes.
Houses that dont have sky have RTE and in a lot of cases dont have TV3 whilst houses that do have sky arent for the most part unhappy as they have chosen to have sky digital ie for the most part Sky households have decided they can afford the cost and want the hundreds of channels.
For RTÉ's part they are freeloading onto that bandwagon with both Sky and RTÉ benefiting.

As regards a FTA scheme, well from a transponder point of view it would cost RTE the same as it does the BBC to have BBC1 and 2 up there.
Is there really a market for it? perhaps when ITV go FTA BUT and its a big but, the up front cost of setting it up versus possible slow initial take up would mean a financial strain at least initially(and that period could be a couple of years) that RTÉ would apparently not want to burden themselves with.

Tony · 21-01-2005 1:22pm

Earthman wrote:

As regards a FTA scheme, well from a transponder point of view it would cost RTE the same as it does the BBC to have BBC1 and 2 up there.

I dont think it would cost the same, they could have rented the transponder and got epg placement for free as its a major selling point for sky. I really think they did not give enough thought to what they were signing up to

RTE's new false advertising promo

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