Liverpool bus lanes suspension - 9 month experiment

rgfuller · 21-10-2013 10:41am #1

On the news this morning since it began last night:

A nine-month experiment has begun to see what Liverpool will be like without bus lanes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-24606912

The city council is to study the flow of traffic during the trial, which follows mayor Joe Anderson's claims that bus lanes do not work.

Transport minister Norman Baker has expressed fears the experiment could lead to a fall in the number of bus passengers and cause more congestion.

Transport industry groups are also concerned.

The Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, which represents the bus, coach and light rail industries, believes passengers could turn their backs on bus services.

Arriva Merseyside said it had not been consulted before the decision was made.

The council said it would consult with bus operators during the first six months of the trial.

Apologies if this was posted already but I couldn't find it in search (also not sure if this should go into the bus enthusiasts subforum).

L1011 · 21-10-2013 11:43am

Without knowing what their bus lanes are like, I still can't see this working well. There may be a few pointless or impeding lanes but not all of them surely?

AngryLips · 21-10-2013 12:09pm

This will only work out to be a victory for no one.

cgcsb · 21-10-2013 12:46pm

Do they really have to do this for 9 months just to see what will happen??
Is it not obvious anyway, bus journey times go up, car journey times go down, more people switch to car. What else would they be expecting?

dowlingm · 21-10-2013 2:03pm

Hopefully it will be like one of those medical trials where the effects are so obvious that it is terminated early.

Zoney · 21-10-2013 7:23pm

Bus lanes seem to cost quite a bit to implement even though sometimes it seems to deliver little more than some line painting would in practical terms (just covering the health and safety side of things, e.g. moving lighting columns from edge of road, better pavement).

Surely the money would often be better spent on junction upgrades for more flows - improving not only bus flow but cars too? Aren't junctions usually where buses are held up?

Of course in some big cities and even in Dublin, some busy routes do need a genuine bus lane, but I'm thinking of still many of other bus lanes in Dublin, as well as in Cork, Limerick, Galway, etc.

L1011 · 21-10-2013 9:33pm

There aren't actually many bus lanes in Dublin that aren't beneficial. Most of them are on slow and heavily trafficked routes and if bus speeds dropped any further there'd be a huge modal shift away from buses making the traffic worse, often beyond the point where turning the bus lane in to another driving lane would have any impact. Then there's cases where bus lanes help other traffic by removing slower & stopping buses from the main flow.

The only cases where traffic has been seriously negatively impacted by the introduction bus lanes have to be seen as benefiting the greater good - North Quays and the Finglas Road come to mind.

A lot of the completely pointless ones would just be a waste of paint in removing them - e.g. the unused ones on the Outer Ring Road are alongside a two lane dual carriageway that's well under capacity anyway.

Victor · 22-10-2013 2:15pm

MYOB wrote: »

The only cases where traffic has been seriously negatively impacted by the introduction bus lanes have to be seen as benefiting the greater good - North Quays and the Finglas Road come to mind.

But it's awesome for bus passengers - Heuston to Customs House in 7 minutes. The real problem was that it wasn't implemented as soon as the port tunnel opened and car replaced the trucks.

A lot of the completely pointless ones would just be a waste of paint in removing them - e.g. the unused ones on the Outer Ring Road are alongside a two lane dual carriageway that's well under capacity anyway.

They are there mostly for the future, to stop people parking in what otherwise would be hard shoulders and control traffic growth.

L1011 · 23-10-2013 6:18am

Victor wrote: »

But it's awesome for bus passengers - Heuston to Customs House in 7 minutes. The real problem was that it wasn't implemented as soon as the port tunnel opened and car replaced the trucks.

That's why I said it was for the greater good in that case.

serfboard · 24-10-2013 6:45pm

rgfuller wrote: »

A nine-month experiment has begun to see what Liverpool will be like without bus lanes.

If this happened here we'd be tempted to say "only in Ireland".

This is one of the daftest ideas I've ever heard. Only a matter of time before some moron in this country proposes the same thing.

Cookie_Monster · 24-10-2013 7:24pm

It's a pityy they don't think of banning private cars from a given area during of CC during the day for the same period to see the real positive effects that could have.

Idbatterim · 28-10-2013 5:32pm

It's a pityy they don't think of banning private cars from a given area during of CC during the day for the same period to see the real positive effects that could have.

Let them put in a decent public transport system first...

Aard · 28-10-2013 7:47pm

What a retrograde step for Liverpool. The Liverpool ONE scheme made its city centre an attractive place again. But considering the suburban nature of Liverpool's residential population, an efficient public transport system is necessary to bring people into the newly popular city centre. Cutting bus lanes will only reinforce suburbanisation and detract from the city centre.

Victor · 29-10-2013 3:06am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Let them put in a decent public transport system first...

Do you mean like an underground railway? http://www.merseyrail.org/_common/map/networkmap.htm

Cookie_Monster · 29-10-2013 3:43am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Let them put in a decent public transport system first...

but with all those empty roads the bus system would be a decent PTS

Idbatterim · 29-10-2013 4:02am

I meant in Dublin victor... Another poster said drivers should be banned from entering city centre during certain hours...

Aard · 29-10-2013 2:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I meant in Dublin victor... Another poster said drivers should be banned from entering city centre during certain hours...

Dublin does have an alright transport network. Most of the morning delays when bussing it in in the morning are due to the ~50% of people who drive cars and try to park as physically close to their place of work as possible. Whereas none of the bus users, once in town, are trying to find somewhere to dump a 12 sqm machine. If there weren't so many cars in the city centre (potentially a very small area btw - maybe even 1sqkm) then the bus network would be far more efficient.

pcbscott · 05-11-2013 12:22pm

Get rid of the bus lanes. ****ing waste of space.

StreetLight · 05-11-2013 1:14pm

pcbscott wrote: »

Get rid of the bus lanes. ****ing waste of space.

Not for buses.

Vic_08 · 05-11-2013 2:52pm

pcbscott wrote: »

Get rid of the bus lanes. ****ing waste of space.

If I were a trillionaire I would give all public transport workers a week off and provide all PT users with a car and chauffeur for a week just to show all the moaning car commuters what the city would be like if everybody acted as they do.

Hint: total gridlock across the city.

AlekSmart · 05-11-2013 3:49pm

Aard wrote: »

Dublin does have an alright transport network. Most of the morning delays when bussing it in in the morning are due to the ~50% of people who drive cars and try to park as physically close to their place of work as possible. Whereas none of the bus users, once in town, are trying to find somewhere to dump a 12 sqm machine. If there weren't so many cars in the city centre (potentially a very small area btw - maybe even 1sqkm) then the bus network would be far more efficient.

Well said that Aard

!

What is of far greater significance in the GDA however,is the absolute committment of Dublin City Council to preserve and extend the remit of those 12 SqMtr occupiers.

Take Nassau Street/South Leinster Street (Which has great potential for a contra-flow Bus Lane to link up with Kildare St,each day the shuffling which outbound traffic is required to do in order to facilitate on-street private car parking is beyond belief.

Also,I once again point to the bizzarre situation on the St Stephens Green East approach to the City Centre,a stretch of National Primary route which for years has been devoid of ANY lane markings where they are needed most.

Now,with the Luas BXD works onging and Traffic Flow being effectively constricted to a single lane,NOBODY in DCC's professional employ can see any sense in deleting 12 On Street Car Parking Spaces to open up a second usable lane,perhaps even for Buses,given that the odd Bus does in fact travel along this corridor...;)

The fascination with,and facilitation of Unrestricted Private Motoring Access to the City Centre Area is by far and away the largest contributing factor to Dublin City Centre's haphazard Traffic and Public Transport arrangements.

AngryLips · 05-11-2013 4:56pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well said that Aard !

What is of far greater significance in the GDA however,is the absolute committment of Dublin City Council to preserve and extend the remit of those 12 SqMtr occupiers.

Let's not forget that this is as much a question of how local government is funded as it is about public transport.

Aard · 06-11-2013 12:43am

The on-street parking on Stephen's Green seems to be absolutely sacred. Not by hook or by crook will there be parking-free Green.

In the latest design I saw, they even route the proposed cycle lane between the traffic and parked cars, instead of between the parked cars and the footpath as best practice dictates. If ever there was a feckin wide enough street where a ~4m two-way cycle lane could be easily accommodated, it's in the Georgian streets around Stephen's Green.

Madness.

AlekSmart · 06-11-2013 12:59am

Aard wrote: »

The on-street parking on Stephen's Green seems to be absolutely sacred. Not by hook or by crook will there be parking-free Green.

In the latest design I saw, they even route the proposed cycle lane between the traffic and parked cars, instead of between the parked cars and the footpath as best practice dictates. If ever there was a feckin wide enough street where a ~4m two-way cycle lane could be easily accommodated, it's in the Georgian streets around Stephen's Green.

Madness.

Even more insane is the reality (In DCC's alternative universe) that when BXD work is completed the number of on-street Car Parking spaces around St Stephens Green will have INCREASED from 83 to 87 !!! .....Stephen Hawking would need a thousand years to find a rational explanation for this :eek:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/ScheduledDisruptions/Documents/South_Traffic_Part_8_Final_Planning_Report.pdf

ArmaniJeanss · 06-11-2013 1:27am

Aard wrote: »

In the latest design I saw, they even route the proposed cycle lane between the traffic and parked cars, instead of between the parked cars and the footpath as best practice dictates. ....
Madness.

Would what you describe really be 'best practice'? Having to manouvre through a load of parked cars to both get onto the cycle lane, and then a few hundred metres (max) later have to go through more parked cars to exit the cycle lane would seem a dangerous mess that would just lead to every cyclist using the other lanes instead?

FWIW, I could see how your preferred design would make sense on a very long straight stretch of road. But not a small square which people only use one or two sides before turning off it.

Aard · 06-11-2013 4:15am

It's the standard in Copenhagen, and is what has been implemented in New York as part of their recent spate of cycle lane construction.

AngryLips · 06-11-2013 5:03pm

I don't think Irish cycling habits would allow the segregation of cyclists from other on-street traffic, I certainly wouldn't abide by it.

Back on topic though: have there been any reports on how Liverpool is getting along without its bus lanes?

Liverpool bus lanes suspension - 9 month experiment

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