The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

bogof · 18-05-2012 1:03am

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I'm voting NO.

I want the government to get serious with our spending problem.

I'm voting yes for the same reason.

banjacksed · 18-05-2012 2:34pm

NO,
Sick to the teeth of hearing the words "stability" "unstable" No certain future, and the rest of the ****e that goes with this treaty, Our kids are forced out of their country to seek and wait for it "uncertain" future looking for a better life.

The Irish people made it very clear at the last election to FF get the **** out of government.

The Irish People also voted in a new government to get things sorted, and they are just sitting polishing chairs with their backsides.

Mr Kenny= Not 1 more cent for the banks? well he gave it to them.
Mr Kenny= No more cronyism in government? Well 60% of gov have members of their own families working for them.

I could go on about the rest of the bare faced lies/empty promises that were made, they would say anything just to get into government!

Now are we going to trust the lies again from government?
I think the best thing is to keep them on a short leash and see where it goes , because at the moment everything is uncertain so why should we rush to vote yes?

Im not a member of any party, just a good business man and this is where the Irish **** up everytime we elect a government.

Ireland is a fantastic country and it's also a business, so why is their allways an incompetent ****er running the government with **** all business brains, That just wants to sell Our souls to his German masters

EURATS · 18-05-2012 3:01pm

banjacksed wrote: »

NO,
Sick to the teeth of hearing the words "stability" "unstable" No certain future, and the rest of the ****e that goes with this treaty, Our kids are forced out of their country to seek and wait for it "uncertain" future looking for a better life.

The Irish people made it very clear at the last election to FF get the **** out of government.

The Irish People also voted in a new government to get things sorted, and they are just sitting polishing chairs with their backsides.

Mr Kenny= Not 1 more cent for the banks? well he gave it to them.
Mr Kenny= No more cronyism in government? Well 60% of gov have members of their own families working for them.

I could go on about the rest of the bare faced lies/empty promises that were made, they would say anything just to get into government!

Now are we going to trust the lies again from government?
I think the best thing is to keep them on a short leash and see where it goes , because at the moment everything is uncertain so why should we rush to vote yes?

Im not a member of any party, just a good business man and this is where the Irish **** up everytime we elect a government.

Ireland is a fantastic country and it's also a business, so why is their allways an incompetent ****er running the government with **** all business brains, That just wants to sell Our souls to his German masters

Can't argue with that meïn freund

lambcutlet · 18-05-2012 4:40pm

Ok so as a person with no background in this, this is what seems to be the message: we had rules already in place with a treaty in relation to the 3% GDP and our FF Government didn't follow it, Europe didn't intervene until it was too late, there was no consequence for the FF Governemnt except big payouts, so now they now want us to follow a treaty with not going beyond 0.5% GDP. This new treaty will mean that although we're already struggling to come in line with the 3% GDP, we can have more cutbacks to be under 0.5% GDP. . . . . . doesn't seem like the answer to me. I work with adults with a severe and profound intellectual disability and the cuts so far are already a step too far. So I'll be voting no. This current Government seems to be using the same bullying tactics as with the previous treaty. Their scare tactics are so un professional and I have no confidence in them now (and I voted FG).

Sully · 18-05-2012 4:58pm

banjacksed wrote: »

NO,
Sick to the teeth of hearing the words "stability" "unstable" No certain future, and the rest of the ****e that goes with this treaty, Our kids are forced out of their country to seek and wait for it "uncertain" future looking for a better life.

The Irish people made it very clear at the last election to FF get the **** out of government.

The Irish People also voted in a new government to get things sorted, and they are just sitting polishing chairs with their backsides.

Mr Kenny= Not 1 more cent for the banks? well he gave it to them.
Mr Kenny= No more cronyism in government? Well 60% of gov have members of their own families working for them.

I could go on about the rest of the bare faced lies/empty promises that were made, they would say anything just to get into government!

Now are we going to trust the lies again from government?
I think the best thing is to keep them on a short leash and see where it goes , because at the moment everything is uncertain so why should we rush to vote yes?

Im not a member of any party, just a good business man and this is where the Irish **** up everytime we elect a government.

Ireland is a fantastic country and it's also a business, so why is their allways an incompetent ****er running the government with **** all business brains, That just wants to sell Our souls to his German masters

With respect, this is not a general election. The country is in an awful state and the Irish people were well warned that the agreement with the IMF/EU for bailout was going to be kept and that times were going to be hard. That is not to say that this Government have broken some promises, or done things that people (me included) are unhappy with. But they are much better then Fianna Fail, and there is absolutely no alternative in Ireland at the moment.

I fully agree people should voice their anger and disappointment at the government if your unhappy. I am one of many who have spoken to their representatives in meetings and raised many issues.

But this referendum has nothing to do with party politics. It is a very simple treaty that the No side are making seem far worse, and adding items that have absolutely nothing to do with this treaty. This treaty is about greater fiscal controls based on rules and figures we already agreed to. Its about having access to a bailout mechanism should we need it. That, whether we hate it or not, is certainty and stability. A vote No puts us in uncharted waters and into an unknown territory. Fact.

People need to educate themselves on this treaty without just looking at the Yes camp and No camps campaign material. Don't just take my word for it. Both will say what it takes to get your vote. If you read Independent sources such as the businesses small, medium and large who have educated themselves and made their feelings known publicly. If you read the various business and employers/employee groups views. If you read decent well respect and well known economists, not cowboy unknown economists who just blog about the economy and have no real credibility, who have made their views known. All of these people are much more honest and unbiased and know their stuff. Its their business to know whether the treaty is good for them or not. If you read these, then you have a better understanding and if not you can go onto say the Politics Forum and ask questions where people can point out the answers and back them up with facts that stack up.

Don't vote No just because your pissed with the government. If you don't trust them, research somewhere else for facts on whether the treaty is good or bad. Make your vote count to something, not just be wasted on an anti-government vote. Think of the future and not just the immediate future and government.

Remember - the Germans wont be the people deciding whether or not we breached the fiscal rules. They can not dictate to Ireland. They do not have the power. The only powers that can, are the EU Courts. The Germans may have took charge and left everyone at the side to get the EU the way they think it should be, but they are not the ones calling the shots. If they were, we wouldn't be having this referendum. Don't let those big countries ignore the fiscal rules they are bound to, and Vote Yes to the Fiscal Treaty which just adds new protections to prevent the abuse of the fiscal rules we already have introduced and that wont go away if we Vote No.

This isn't an Austerity Treaty. The No side are pointing at figures saying that's whats causing the Austerity and that's part of the treaty. Thats not correct. The figures, and only the actual accurate ones and not the ones they tend to pluck from the sky, they speak about are part of a pact we already have introduced and are bound by. So taking the advise and voting no wont make any difference - we will still have Austerity, if not more. Because we already have those rules on stricter spending in force, before this treaty.

There are plenty of things in Europe that we don't have the same. Corporation Tax being one of them. This treaty has nothing to do with corporation tax, or any form of taxation. If we Vote No, or if we Vote Yes, there is no difference to the level of protection on the corporation tax. A vote either way makes absolutely no difference. We got guarantees on this in the Lisbon treaty, after being told by the No side that treaty was going to bring Ireland into further despair and hardship, with abortion and conception and with our corporation tax being lost. All lies, just to get you to vote against the government. That was proven, and its time people woke up and spotted the lies in this campaign.

golden lane · 18-05-2012 5:07pm

Sully wrote: »

With respect, this is not a general election. The country is in an awful state and the Irish people were well warned that the agreement with the IMF/EU for bailout was going to be kept and that times were going to be hard. That is not to say that this Government have broken some promises, or done things that people (me included) are unhappy with. But they are much better then Fianna Fail, and there is absolutely no alternative in Ireland at the moment.

I fully agree people should voice their anger and disappointment at the government if your unhappy. I am one of many who have spoken to their representatives in meetings and raised many issues.

But this referendum has nothing to do with party politics. It is a very simple treaty that the No side are making seem far worse, and adding items that have absolutely nothing to do with this treaty. This treaty is about greater fiscal controls based on rules and figures we already agreed to. Its about having access to a bailout mechanism should we need it. That, whether we hate it or not, is certainty and stability. A vote No puts us in uncharted waters and into an unknown territory. Fact.

People need to educate themselves on this treaty without just looking at the Yes camp and No camps campaign material. Don't just take my word for it. Both will say what it takes to get your vote. If you read Independent sources such as the businesses small, medium and large who have educated themselves and made their feelings known publicly. If you read the various business and employers/employee groups views. If you read decent well respect and well known economists, not cowboy unknown economists who just blog about the economy and have no real credibility, who have made their views known. All of these people are much more honest and unbiased and know their stuff. Its their business to know whether the treaty is good for them or not. If you read these, then you have a better understanding and if not you can go onto say the Politics Forum and ask questions where people can point out the answers and back them up with facts that stack up.

Don't vote No just because your pissed with the government. If you don't trust them, research somewhere else for facts on whether the treaty is good or bad. Make your vote count to something, not just be wasted on an anti-government vote. Think of the future and not just the immediate future and government.

Remember - the Germans wont be the people deciding whether or not we breached the fiscal rules. They can not dictate to Ireland. They do not have the power. The only powers that can, are the EU Courts. The Germans may have took charge and left everyone at the side to get the EU the way they think it should be, but they are not the ones calling the shots. If they were, we wouldn't be having this referendum. Don't let those big countries ignore the fiscal rules they are bound to, and Vote Yes to the Fiscal Treaty which just adds new protections to prevent the abuse of the fiscal rules we already have introduced and that wont go away if we Vote No.

This isn't an Austerity Treaty. The No side are pointing at figures saying that's whats causing the Austerity and that's part of the treaty. Thats not correct. The figures, and only the actual accurate ones and not the ones they tend to pluck from the sky, they speak about are part of a pact we already have introduced and are bound by. So taking the advise and voting no wont make any difference - we will still have Austerity, if not more. Because we already have those rules on stricter spending in force, before this treaty.

There are plenty of things in Europe that we don't have the same. Corporation Tax being one of them. This treaty has nothing to do with corporation tax, or any form of taxation. If we Vote No, or if we Vote Yes, there is no difference to the level of protection on the corporation tax. A vote either way makes absolutely no difference. We got guarantees on this in the Lisbon treaty, after being told by the No side that treaty was going to bring Ireland into further despair and hardship, with abortion and conception and with our corporation tax being lost. All lies, just to get you to vote against the government. That was proven, and its time people woke up and spotted the lies in this campaign.

very well put......not that i agree with a fiscal treaty......but people should know what they are voting for.....and it is very underhand for the opposition to bring politics into such a big a important decision.....

best of luck for the future..

Sully · 18-05-2012 5:15pm

lambcutlet wrote: »

Ok so as a person with no background in this, this is what seems to be the message: we had rules already in place with a treaty in relation to the 3% GDP and our FF Government didn't follow it, Europe didn't intervene until it was too late, there was no consequence for the FF Governemnt except big payouts, so now they now want us to follow a treaty with not going beyond 0.5% GDP. This new treaty will mean that although we're already struggling to come in line with the 3% GDP, we can have more cutbacks to be under 0.5% GDP. . . . . . doesn't seem like the answer to me. I work with adults with a severe and profound intellectual disability and the cuts so far are already a step too far. So I'll be voting no. This current Government seems to be using the same bullying tactics as with the previous treaty. Their scare tactics are so un professional and I have no confidence in them now (and I voted FG).

You say that the scare tactics are from the government? But the government are only telling you the truth - a No vote does put us into uncharted waters and unknown territory. Because if we do need a bailout after voting No, nobody is 100% sure where we will get it. In fact, nobody has any real concrete level of where we could get it. The IMF - looking unlikely, a former IMF director said so and the IMF themselves pulled away from claims saying they would. If they did, would the interest rates be higher? What terms would be attached to such a bailout? The Markets - Same problem as going with the IMF, if they were to lend to us (and note that our credit rating will drop if we vote No, a fact by the rating agency themselves confirmed) the rate would be very high as cost of borrowing is already high. Other funds such as pensions / wealth tax - no idea how much money, no idea how long it would take to get, no idea if its enough, etc.

The No side say its going to bring in more austerity and quote all these figures. Just like you did above, you were led to believe the treaty forces 0.5% - but this has been in place since 2005. Plenty of economists (such as Seamus Coffey) have shown the facts that we were well able to do this before, its not that hard and we could continue to do so in the future.

The 3% is the general government deficit, and is the same in the Treaty as in the current Stability & Growth Pact. The 0.5% 'structural deficit' rule is separate from the 3% general deficit rule, and is also in the current Stability & Growth Pact.

A further point, as well, which people seem to miss, is that the fiscal rules which can trigger an excessive deficit procedure are the 3% deficit and 60% debt rules. The 'structural deficit' rule does not trigger an excessive deficit procedure if breached - it is intended to trigger a domestic 'correction mechanism'.

So, you were misinformed. You got those figures and from what I can see panicked a little and thought that this meant even more hardship for the country as a result of this treaty alone. But that's not even remotely true. If you vote No, its the same thing. The rules the No side talk about will still be there. That's pure scaremongering and lies. And you don't trust the government?

As I said above though, in relation to the both parties, they are doing what they said they would be doing. But I don't think people paid much attention in the election and just assumed that FG & Labour would walk in and solve everything in a year without any cuts or pain. A year and a bit later, the country IS improving. We are seeing growth, meeting all targets in the IMF/EU agreement, looking at heading back to the markets after a good trial, thousands of jobs created, unemployment steadying, job losses slowing down (not going to be avoided as companies will make cut backs after going a little wild in the good times), income tax remained untouched (as promised), the government actually took a pay cut when they were first elected (not good enough and more needed, I agree) which is more than other politicians did in the past, cut down on excessive pensions going forward (seems that those who left are back in again, which needs to be sorted) and so on. Things have improved, things are on the up, but cuts and austerity will continue as promises for the foreseeable future no matter which way we vote. The government are far from perfect, but they are far from the worst. Its not the first time they were voted into government in a recession and financial disaster and they got us out of it in the past, and they will get us out of it now. It takes time, not a year!

EURATS · 18-05-2012 5:55pm

Sully wrote: »

lambcutlet wrote: »

Ok so as a person with no background in this, this is what seems to be the message: we had rules already in place with a treaty in relation to the 3% GDP and our FF Government didn't follow it, Europe didn't intervene until it was too late, there was no consequence for the FF Governemnt except big payouts, so now they now want us to follow a treaty with not going beyond 0.5% GDP. This new treaty will mean that although we're already struggling to come in line with the 3% GDP, we can have more cutbacks to be under 0.5% GDP. . . . . . doesn't seem like the answer to me. I work with adults with a severe and profound intellectual disability and the cuts so far are already a step too far. So I'll be voting no. This current Government seems to be using the same bullying tactics as with the previous treaty. Their scare tactics are so un professional and I have no confidence in them now (and I voted FG).

You say that the scare tactics are from the government? But the government are only telling you the truth - a No vote does put us into uncharted waters and unknown territory. Because if we do need a bailout after voting No, nobody is 100% sure where we will get it. In fact, nobody has any real concrete level of where we could get it. The IMF - looking unlikely, a former IMF director said so and the IMF themselves pulled away from claims saying they would. If they did, would the interest rates be higher? What terms would be attached to such a bailout? The Markets - Same problem as going with the IMF, if they were to lend to us (and note that our credit rating will drop if we vote No, a fact by the rating agency themselves confirmed) the rate would be very high as cost of borrowing is already high. Other funds such as pensions / wealth tax - no idea how much money, no idea how long it would take to get, no idea if its enough, etc.

The No side say its going to bring in more austerity and quote all these figures. Just like you did above, you were led to believe the treaty forces 0.5% - but this has been in place since 2005. Plenty of economists (such as Seamus Coffey) have shown the facts that we were well able to do this before, its not that hard and we could continue to do so in the future.

The 3% is the general government deficit, and is the same in the Treaty as in the current Stability & Growth Pact. The 0.5% 'structural deficit' rule is separate from the 3% general deficit rule, and is also in the current Stability & Growth Pact.

A further point, as well, which people seem to miss, is that the fiscal rules which can trigger an excessive deficit procedure are the 3% deficit and 60% debt rules. The 'structural deficit' rule does not trigger an excessive deficit procedure if breached - it is intended to trigger a domestic 'correction mechanism'.

So, you were misinformed. You got those figures and from what I can see panicked a little and thought that this meant even more hardship for the country as a result of this treaty alone. But that's not even remotely true. If you vote No, its the same thing. The rules the No side talk about will still be there. That's pure scaremongering and lies. And you don't trust the government?

As I said above though, in relation to the both parties, they are doing what they said they would be doing. But I don't think people paid much attention in the election and just assumed that FG & Labour would walk in and solve everything in a year without any cuts or pain. A year and a bit later, the country IS improving. We are seeing growth, meeting all targets in the IMF/EU agreement, looking at heading back to the markets after a good trial, thousands of jobs created, unemployment steadying, job losses slowing down (not going to be avoided as companies will make cut backs after going a little wild in the good times), income tax remained untouched (as promised), the government actually took a pay cut when they were first elected (not good enough and more needed, I agree) which is more than other politicians did in the past, cut down on excessive pensions going forward (seems that those who left are back in again, which needs to be sorted) and so on. Things have improved, things are on the up, but cuts and austerity will continue as promises for the foreseeable future no matter which way we vote. The government are far from perfect, but they are far from the worst. Its not the first time they were voted into government in a recession and financial disaster and they got us out of it in the past, and they will get us out of it now. It takes time, not a year!

Enda is that u?....eh no. Wouldn't be capable of conjuring up such a lovely pleasant story about a fictional rebirth.

Any thanks for this man? Feel free to thank him. Is a best seller!!

Ireland's on the up u know!! I wish it was.

Daveysil15 · 18-05-2012 6:03pm

If the Fiscal treaty is such a good thing, then why isn't it just implemented? Why bother voting on it in the first place, especially since most people don't understand it? It was the same crap with the Lisbon treaty.

Sully · 18-05-2012 6:16pm

EURATS wrote: »

Enda is that u?....eh no. Wouldn't be capable of conjuring up such a lovely pleasant story about a fictional rebirth.

Any thanks for this man? Feel free to thank him. Is a best seller!!

Ireland's on the up u know!! I wish it was.

Yes, it is. Hi. Nice to meet you.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

If the Fiscal treaty is such a good thing, then why isn't it just implemented? Why bother voting on it in the first place, especially since most people don't understand it? It was the same crap with the Lisbon treaty.

We have to ask the people as it modifies our constitution. Likewise with Lisbon. The government didn't have a choice.

EURATS · 18-05-2012 6:23pm

Sully wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Enda is that u?....eh no. Wouldn't be capable of conjuring up such a lovely pleasant story about a fictional rebirth.

Any thanks for this man? Feel free to thank him. Is a best seller!!

Ireland's on the up u know!! I wish it was.

Yes, it is. Hi. Nice to meet you.

Go on Sully ya chancer.

Black Suir · 18-05-2012 7:37pm

insight_man wrote: »

Who is voting for and against the Fiscal Treaty. Its time for the debate

When the treaty was agreed, our Brilliant taoiseach said there was no need for us to vote on it. Now he is begging us to vote yes. Dont understand it fully, but it appears that voting yes does make more sense, but you have to wonder seriously about Enda and co. First as i said there was no need for a vote, now he are pleeded with to vote it in.

Black Suir · 18-05-2012 7:42pm

blue note wrote: »

Why no? Why not vote yes if you don't understand it? Or why not abstain?

Would you sign a form that you dont understand. So why put an X in a box you dont understand whats it about.

Black Suir · 18-05-2012 7:49pm

Finnbar01 wrote: »

The EU is an undemocratic corrupt entity. The sooner it collapses ( and it will) the better.

Maybe it's time that this country stand on its own two feet without the begging bowl.

I'd hate to think where we would be right now had we not joined in 1973. We all would be a lot worse off in every way.

EURATS · 18-05-2012 8:01pm

Black Suir wrote: »

Finnbar01 wrote: »

The EU is an undemocratic corrupt entity. The sooner it collapses ( and it will) the better.

Maybe it's time that this country stand on its own two feet without the begging bowl.

I'd hate to think where we would be right now had we not joined in 1973. We all would be a lot worse off in every way.

Really..that's interesting..considering if we hadn't joined, we wouldn't have known any different.
Handouts don't garner pride or give one any sense of achievement.

Sully · 18-05-2012 8:03pm

Black Suir wrote: »

When the treaty was agreed, our Brilliant taoiseach said there was no need for us to vote on it. Now he is begging us to vote yes. Dont understand it fully, but it appears that voting yes does make more sense, but you have to wonder seriously about Enda and co. First as i said there was no need for a vote, now he are pleeded with to vote it in.

It was never said by Enda or the government that we wouldn't be voting. He said that the Atterney General would decide whether or not a referendum was needed. She said yes. The government then announced the vote.

The opposition were calling for a referendum from the start with Sinn Fein desperate to get back into the courts claiming they would bring the government to court if they didn't.

Sully · 18-05-2012 8:04pm

EURATS wrote: »

Really..that's interesting..considering if we hadn't joined, we wouldn't have known any different.

And Ireland wouldn't be where it is today, without EU funding and support. That was his point. Plus the various EU Laws and the court itself which has helped Ireland progress.

Black Suir · 18-05-2012 8:10pm

insight_man wrote: »

7

A ‘balanced budget’ means that a government could not spend any more than it takes in taxes.

All Governments should be doing this, its simple housekeeping. Its the way i live anyway. If i have the money in my pocket i spend it, if i havent i cant. I dont think we need Europe to tell us that this is something we should be doing and if we need them to tell us, its time to get rid of what we have at Leinster House and those that advise them.

EURATS · 18-05-2012 8:10pm

Sully wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Really..that's interesting..considering if we hadn't joined, we wouldn't have known any different.

And Ireland wouldn't be where it is today, without EU funding and support. That was his point. Plus the various EU Laws and the court itself which has helped Ireland progress.

Where it is today? Are u about to write another novel? It's this funding that has left us with all the obligations that are currently drowning us.
Also, a lot of the laws are pathetic and make it more expensive and complicated for businesses to operate. Am sure there are some that are good..feel free to point them out.

Sully · 18-05-2012 8:31pm

EURATS wrote: »

Where it is today? Are u about to write another novel? It's this funding that has left us with all the obligations that are currently drowning us.
Also, a lot of the laws are pathetic and make it more expensive and complicated for businesses to operate. Am sure there are some that are good..feel free to point them out.

Christ almighty the negativity and scaremongering has reached an all new low. The majority of people in Ireland want to stay in Europe, and Membership has nothing to do with the treaty so ill leave it at that.

EURATS · 18-05-2012 8:42pm

Sully wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Where it is today? Are u about to write another novel? It's this funding that has left us with all the obligations that are currently drowning us.
Also, a lot of the laws are pathetic and make it more expensive and complicated for businesses to operate. Am sure there are some that are good..feel free to point them out.

Christ almighty the negativity and scaremongering has reached an all new low. The majority of people in Ireland want to stay in Europe, and Membership has nothing to do with the treaty so ill leave it at that.

Never mentioned the treaty being about EU membership. But the EU is mainly there for trade purposes..not as a big brother/mother which it has evolved into

wellboytoo · 18-05-2012 9:18pm

I am taking my lead from Sinn fein and Declan Ganley and voting Yes....

Boskowski · 18-05-2012 10:47pm

It's really amazing how much stupid and plain ignorant sh1t is being spouted over just these few pages on this very thread. It is even more amazing as this treaty is now really being rather simple and only a few pages strong. But some folks simply couldn't be arsed to form their opinion - whether it's a positive or negative one - based on facts and information. And as truly ignorant people they're actually expressing pride in their ignorance.
Is it any wonder the country is in the state its in?

EURATS · 18-05-2012 11:12pm

Trolls coming in talking incoherent nonsense now. Thread should be closed

Sully · 19-05-2012 12:47am

EURATS wrote: »

Trolls coming in talking incoherent nonsense now. Thread should be closed

Ah your not that bad yet

Boskowski · 19-05-2012 8:25am

EURATS wrote: »

Trolls coming in talking incoherent nonsense now. Thread should be closed

Says the guy with all of 22 posts on his belt and the eloquent username? I'm impressed.

No, joking aside, was probably worded a bit strongly, but my point is: We're complaining about 'the quality' of our politicians but if this thread is anything to go by then they're only reflection of ourselves and just what we deserve.

There seems to be quite a large fraction that goes by 'I don't give a fvck, so fvck them anyway, NOOOOO' or along the lines of that. Thats not good is it?

dvpower · 19-05-2012 8:34am

Black Suir wrote: »

All Governments should be doing this, its simple housekeeping. Its the way i live anyway. If i have the money in my pocket i spend it, if i havent i cant. I dont think we need Europe to tell us that this is something we should be doing and if we need them to tell us, its time to get rid of what we have at Leinster House and those that advise them.

Most people dont balance their budgets. Most people borrow large sums of money to buy a home and save large sums to fund retirement.

golden lane · 19-05-2012 8:48am

dvpower wrote: »

Most people dont balance their budgets. Most people borrow large sums of money to buy a home and save large sums to fund retirement.

debt only becomes a problem, when it cannot be serviced.......yes, government should borrow for investment in infrastructure etc......but not just to pay it's everyday expenses..

Black Suir · 19-05-2012 11:24am

Boskowski wrote: »

It's really amazing how much stupid and plain ignorant sh1t is being spouted over just these few pages on this very thread. It is even more amazing as this treaty is now really being rather simple and only a few pages strong. But some folks simply couldn't be arsed to form their opinion - whether it's a positive or negative one - based on facts and information. And as truly ignorant people they're actually expressing pride in their ignorance.
Is it any wonder the country is in the state its in?

Lots of people cant be arsed reading stuff they get thrown in their letter boxes and put it in the same place where the rest of it goes. The job of explaing it in simple english lies with the government. They should not only be telling us what voting yes will mean (which they want) but they should also be telling us what voting no will mean. The likes of John Halligan who wants us to vote no should also be telling us in plain and simple english what voting yes and no will mean. There is positives and negatives to what both sides want us to do. Someone like Halligan should come out and say enda kenny is right in asking us to vote yes to the treaty but voting yes could also mean such and such a thing. The yes side should also do the same. And remember on the day its most likely that it is the older people in the country that will take the time to get to their voting station and to put their X in the box, and they might not understand what is asked of them.

Black Suir · 19-05-2012 11:27am

dvpower wrote: »

Most people dont balance their budgets. Most people borrow large sums of money to buy a home and save large sums to fund retirement.

The foolish people do.

EURATS · 19-05-2012 1:26pm

Boskowski wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Trolls coming in talking incoherent nonsense now. Thread should be closed

Says the guy with all of 22 posts on his belt and the eloquent username? I'm impressed.

Well we all have to start somewhere boskowski. Being on 2,389 posts seems to put you up on a pedestal, or at least you think it does. And that's fine. Each to their own.
As for your post, there was nothing eloquent about it. This one today however wasn't as sloppy. Not to say I agree with you

wrfc · 19-05-2012 4:11pm

intresting videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChiV9g5ovVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EPcWHBPYOSU&NR=1

Sully · 20-05-2012 11:32am

wrfc wrote: »

intresting videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChiV9g5ovVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=EPcWHBPYOSU&NR=1

Please add your thoughts on the video, this is a discussion forum.

The videos are factually incorrect and scaremongering. Most of what they mention are not in the treaty or have been addressed earlier in this point.

banjacksed · 20-05-2012 2:22pm

Sully wrote: »

Please add your thoughts on the video, this is a discussion forum.

The videos are factually incorrect and scaremongering. Most of what they mention are not in the treaty or have been addressed earlier in this point.

You seem to be politically Biased sully? are you a member of any parties currently in government by any chance? ( not saying theres anything wrong with that ).

Who started the scaremongering in the first place only FG/LAB

Sully · 20-05-2012 2:34pm

banjacksed wrote: »

You seem to be politically Biased sully? are you a member of any parties currently in government by any chance? ( not saying theres anything wrong with that ).

Yes, Fine Gael. Well known, and not disguised. But Boards is a discussion forum and in general people are asked not to just post links and say nothing. Regardless of the discussion.

Who started the scaremongering in the first place only FG/LAB

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

letsbet · 20-05-2012 2:39pm

Sully wrote: »

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

It is scaremongering (and inaccurate) to say that yes is a vote for the EU etc. as Enda said yesterday, implying that somehow voting no is a vote against the EU which is compelte rubbish.

banjacksed · 20-05-2012 3:59pm

Sully wrote: »

Yes, Fine Gael. Well known, and not disguised. But Boards is a discussion forum and in general people are asked not to just post links and say nothing. Regardless of the discussion.

Its not scaremongering telling people we wont get access to the ESM, we may not get money from the markets/ISM and if we do we don't know the rates or terms attached. Fact.

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

Sully · 20-05-2012 6:51pm

banjacksed wrote: »

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

Because I asked one person who posted videos without commenting to expand?!

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

What do I expect from what now?

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

This isn't a discussion of Fine Gael or Labour. I have been open to the things the party promised and reneged on in discussions. I have also pointed out that people seem to be forgetting what they were told that FG/Labour did do. also. Am I happy with their performance? Not fully. Is that relevant to this treaty? No.

You don't have to listen to their views, and go with a Yes vote. You can look at others who have expressed their views. I have given a list of organisations (small and large) and businesses backing the treaty. Christ even Ronan O'Gara is in today's Sindo calling for a Yes vote and he isn't a member of either party. Brian Cody, another backer of the treaty. All Independent minds, party politics aside. Two Dragons Dens members are backing it - big money names.

I don't want people to listen to me either, as I am biased, and vote on what I say. But I will tell the truth and correct dishonest remarks made by either.

Sully · 20-05-2012 6:55pm

letsbet wrote: »

It is scaremongering (and inaccurate) to say that yes is a vote for the EU etc. as Enda said yesterday, implying that somehow voting no is a vote against the EU which is compelte rubbish.

If that's what he said, I agree that its misleading. Maybe Lisbon, but not the Fiscal Treaty. Europe can move on without us, which wasn't really possible before, and we wouldn't be left out on the side as such.

EURATS · 20-05-2012 7:04pm

Sully wrote: »

banjacksed wrote: »

Yes it is a discussion forum, but it looks like your using it to promote a yes vote, For your leader / Party, your straight in everytime someone express an opinion and try get them to change their minds,

Because I asked one person who posted videos without commenting to expand?!

In fairness what do you expect by the way Irish People have being lied to again by their government.

What do I expect from what now?

Why dont you tell the forum members here what your party has promised the irish people to get into government and what they have backtracked on !!!! just to date.
And now they want the Irish people to trust what they are now saying and asking for !!!!!
Jesus do you believe to that the irish are just plain thick and believe anything their being told .

Is this what your leader is bashing you with, hahahahahah :rolleyes:

ps, I have nothing personal against you just your party that you support

This isn't a discussion of Fine Gael or Labour. I have been open to the things the party promised and reneged on in discussions. I have also pointed out that people seem to be forgetting what they were told that FG/Labour did do. also. Am I happy with their performance? Not fully. Is that relevant to this treaty? No.

You don't have to listen to their views, and go with a Yes vote. You can look at others who have expressed their views. I have given a list of organisations (small and large) and businesses backing the treaty. Christ even Ronan O'Gara is in today's Sindo calling for a Yes vote and he isn't a member of either party. Brian Cody, another backer of the treaty. All Independent minds, party politics aside. Two Dragons Dens members are backing it - big money names.

I don't want people to listen to me either, as I am biased, and vote on what I say. But I will tell the truth and correct dishonest remarks made by either.

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Sully · 20-05-2012 7:29pm

EURATS wrote: »

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

You said it was political bullying. Independent people spoke out and backed it. It renders your whole argument nill and void.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

I would answer it but I didn't appreciate your tone with the last dig there.

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Seriously? lol

EURATS · 20-05-2012 7:42pm

Sully wrote: »

EURATS wrote: »

Jaysus..Brian Cody, ronan o'gara, dragons den people. Better listen so.

This is very much about FG/labour. They,along with yourself and many others are the ones looking to bully and intimidate us into voting YES prematurely to a treaty that isn't even finalised yet and hasnt been ratified by germany.

You said it was political bullying. Independent people spoke out and backed it. It renders your whole argument nill and void.

Again I ask,and am blue in the face asking it....what is/was the rush for a May 31st referendum?
(and I don't need a 2 page essay of a response)

I would answer it but I didn't appreciate your tone with the last dig there.

Stinks me thinks!!

Unfortunately Ireland has a long history of being raped and pillaged. This is just history repeating itself. Is a vicious cycle and one that's extremely hard to get out of.
When we were occupied by the British, the place was full of informers that sold out their own for personal gain.

De ja vu 2 0 1 2 !!!!!!

Seriously? lol

Throw in a few sports stars, "tv stars" and a few independents that are on the FG payroll and that is enough to invalidate my point? Even your nil and void(nul and void?) bit is wrong. I assume a typo.
I won't even laugh.

Convenient that you, like the other FG Mods won't answer the May 31st part. Fortunately for you I gave u an excuse to take the childish line.

And as for laughing about Ireland's history, it says it all!!

Sully · 20-05-2012 8:22pm

EURATS wrote: »

Throw in a few sports stars, "tv stars" and a few independents that are on the FG payroll and that is enough to invalidate my point? Even your nil and void(nul and void?) bit is wrong. I assume a typo.
I won't even laugh.

Convenient that you, like the other FG Mods won't answer the May 31st part. Fortunately for you I gave u an excuse to take the childish line.

And as for laughing about Ireland's history, it says it all!!

If you say so.

wellboytoo · 20-05-2012 9:03pm

€10 says eurats won't make fifty posts.

Trick of the Tail · 21-05-2012 10:19am

We're really being propagandised on this one. I just read the leaflet from the so-called 'independent' Referendum Commission.

Its so biased towards a 'yes', it's laughable.

The mere fact that this is called a 'Stability' Treaty - who'd vote for instability?

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

I'm not saying you should vote yes or no - just that you should know what you're being asked.

A.

Turnstyle · 21-05-2012 10:48am

alinton wrote: »

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

A.

This is more or less it in a nutshell for me, our government is obviously trying to force a yes vote because they are afraid to face a possibly tougher road without access to the ESM, they simply do not have a clue what they are at and will do whatever is asked by Europe regardless. Voting on this treaty should be pushed back to a later date at the very least... for us to seek a short term solution to our woes at the cost of handing over more of our sovereignty and changing our own constitution is weak and plain wrong

UnDeclanGanley · 21-05-2012 11:13am

I've said it before and i'll say it again, when trying to decide on a tricky issue, ask yourself "What would Declan Ganley do?" (#wwdgd) and the answer will become clear.

Sully · 21-05-2012 11:35am

UnDeclanGanley wrote: »

I've said it before and i'll say it again, when trying to decide on a tricky issue, ask yourself "What would Declan Ganley do?" (#wwdgd) and the answer will become clear.

Make profit from a No vote? Owns nearly 50% in shares in a company that's asking people to put money into Swiss accounts, move out of the euro, and thus profiting from economic uncertainty.

See; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ganley-denies-conflict-of-interest-in-calling-for-no-vote-552198.html

He is also a Politician who was rejected by the electorate, yet wont go away.

I see that another Independent thinker who is usually critical of the government is backing a Yes vote. He described "no" campaigners as a "bunch of idiots and lunatics." Who could it be? Why its Michael O'Leary, CEO of Ryanair!

Source: http://www.cnbc.com/id/47500604/

Sully · 21-05-2012 11:41am

alinton wrote: »

We're really being propagandised on this one. I just read the leaflet from the so-called 'independent' Referendum Commission.

Its so biased towards a 'yes', it's laughable.

The mere fact that this is called a 'Stability' Treaty - who'd vote for instability?

The point that is being concealed is that the Fiscal Treaty (which is now moot anyway as France want the content altered) necessitates a change in our constitution because is gives a foreign power even more authority over Ireland.

That's why we need a referendum. The Constitution was written, in part, to protect the sovereignty of the state, and the treaty devolves some of that sovereignty.

So we should be being asked - do you agree to allow a foreign power to have more control over the elected government on Ireland?

I'm not saying you should vote yes or no - just that you should know what you're being asked.

A.

Agreed in part but this isn't the first time we have been asked to modify our constitution for Europe. Its not as such having "more control" as I see it, but I see the point. What its asking us to do is that we agree to stick to certain spending limits. After that, the Treaty is allowing the European Courts to decide if we are breaching the limits, and order us to fix it or face a fine. The figures and percentages that we must uphold are already agreed upon and wont change regardless of the way we vote. This takes it a step further to protect our budget and prevent the bigger countries from easily leaving the rules.

Re; France. It will be a growth pack which wont need changing the text within. Its an addition. It wont need us to re-run and the basic principle stays the same.

banjacksed · 21-05-2012 1:45pm

Has Enda kenny had a live head to head debate regarding the vote on live television yet..........

The Fiscal Treaty Yes or No

Comments