Part of €420m motorway to be dug up over 'poor surface'

Navan Junction · 24-06-2006 11:17am #1

Irish Independent, Saturday June 24th 2006

SECTIONS of a €420m motorway opened by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern just months ago are being ripped up and replaced next week because they are breaking up.

Up to 10pc of the M4 toll motorway between Kilcock and Kinnegad on the main Dublin-Galway road has to be replaced, the Irish Independent has learned.

Motorists face lane closures for several weeks to facilitate the replacement of 4km of the 39km motorway.

The 4km which have to be replaced are in various sections of the motorway.

The revelation is bound to be a major embarrassment to the Taoiseach, who opened this most expensive of motorways in a fanfare of publicity last December.

At the time he said "this high-quality road, delivered on budget and 10 months early, is an evident manifestation of the value of the public and private partnership programme".

The National Roads Authority has ordered road operators Eurolink not to close lanes during busy commuting times.

The problem has been caused by a "bad batch" of road surface material laid during poor weather conditions, an NRA spokesperson said yesterday.

The spokesperson said there would be no cost to taxpayers as Eurolink would be paying for the repairs.

"We are in the process of planning lane closures that will minimise the impact" on commuters, the NRA spokesperson said.

Of the total cost of €420m, the State paid €100m for the land and a further €170m towards construction costs.

Eurolink provided the rest of the money, financed by the European Investment Bank, and it is to be recouped through a 30-year toll concession.

Treacy Hogan

© Irish Independent

Zebra3 · 24-06-2006 12:04pm

I just saw that in the Indo.

Is anyone ever held accountable for this sort of crap? :mad: If I was responsible for something like in my job I'd be down at my local dole office...getting laughed at.

€420M and they can't even get the job done right. :mad:

delly · 24-06-2006 12:06pm

The spokesperson said there would be no cost to taxpayers as Eurolink would be paying for the repairs.

Well then we should be happy :rolleyes:. We may not have to pay any money, but what is the cost to the average punter who will be held up on there journey, or people who pay the toll to find the old road will be quicker. It really does make the blood boil.

DCAL ftw

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 3:10pm

I'm all for government bashing but don't believe its fair on this occasion.
Surfaces cracking due to weather when being layed unfortunaly happens, I've seen it happen to the floor of a house being built when readymix was layed during the day and froze during the night, cracks all over the place!

As for accountability I believe that Eurolink are being held responsible and they foot the bill. Better they fix it then deny the problem and just let it get worse.

Unfortunatly these things happen in all areas, not just with projects the government funds.

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 5:50pm

Unfortunatly these things happen in all areas, not just with projects the government funds.

I disagree there is no way that a project undertaken by say Sisk or Crampton would be handed over as fit for occupation unless all the tests had been undertaken.

It appears that the government decided after years of projects coming in years late to pressure contractors to hand over projects whether they were in a fit state of completion or not.

4 kms or motorway in this case 3 kms of luas line in another when will the bungling end?

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 7:23pm

Diaspora wrote:

It appears that the government decided after years of projects coming in years late to pressure contractors to hand over projects whether they were in a fit state of completion or not.

Unless they are totally stupid, I would imagine that no government would force though a project 10 months ahead of schedule with a flaw they knew about only to have to face public ridicule a few months down the line when it has to be fixed.

The NRA and other state bodies putting pressure on contractors was something that the public demanded because of over-schedule, over-budget projects like the Dublin Port Tunnel and the LUAS and they are flawed too.
If you can name a country that can build every single major project on-time, on-budget and with no flaws I'd like to hear about them and I'll move there.

Until you get rid of the human element there will always be bungling, and even then you can't stop the weather messing things up unless you roof the country (like in d'unbelievables)

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 7:47pm

sameoldname wrote:

Unless they are totally stupid, I would imagine that no government would force though a project 10 months ahead of schedule with a flaw they knew about only to have to face public ridicule a few months down the line when it has to be fixed.

That is exactly what happened and in relation to Luas the project was still years late.

sameoldname wrote:

The NRA and other state bodies putting pressure on contractors was something that the public demanded because of over-schedule, over-budget projects like the Dublin Port Tunnel and the LUAS and they are flawed too.
If you can name a country that can build every single major project on-time, on-budget and with no flaws I'd like to hear about them and I'll move there.

Singapore and Germany have completed much larger and more intricate projects that have come in on time and on budget.

I think you will agree that the situation that the NRA did not have any professional consultancy engaged whilst negotiating projects is an international precedent in stupidity.

One wonders how many of the other projects finishing ahead of schedule will exhibit similar failures in the near future?

cast_iron · 24-06-2006 8:03pm

Diaspora wrote:

That is exactly what happened and in relation to Luas the project was still years late.

You've missed his point. If you re-read, he says the Govt wouldn't force it 10 months ahead of schedule with a flaw - the Luas, as you said, was late. In that case it may be plausable to force the issue.

Diaspora wrote:

Singapore and Germany have completed much larger and more intricate projects that have come in on time and on budget.

And you can also ensure us that absolutely no flaws in construction occured in any of these projects.

sameoldname wrote:

The NRA and other state bodies putting pressure on contractors was something that the public demanded because of over-schedule, over-budget projects like the Dublin Port Tunnel and the LUAS and they are flawed too.

Well the Port Tunnel isn't open yet, and what is the current flaw with the Luas?

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 8:38pm

Diaspora wrote:

Singapore and Germany have completed much larger and more intricate projects that have come in on time and on budget.

A German Toll Project
Eschede train disaster (I'm including this because it was a design fault)
Nicoll Highway collapse (Another design fault, apparently "Arguments were made that readings of instruments on site have indicated that things were not going as planned, but the warnings were not acted upon.")

At least the NRA are fixing the road!

I do not disagree with you that certain government schemes are shambolic at best but I don't believe in blaming the government for mistakes that are common in every country. It has been well decussed on these boards how the Irish media likes to sensationalise every mistake big and small when it comes to the government and I believe that people read this and think that it's only an Irish phenomenon which it isn't. (I am not accusing you Diaspora of this)
God it's a sad day when I feel the need to defend politicians!

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 9:34pm

cast_iron wrote:

Well the Port Tunnel isn't open yet, and what is the current flaw with the Luas?

The Port Tunnel, as reported by the media a number of months ago had developed a leak due to a rupture in the water-proof membrane caused accidentally during construction, although by some reports you'd reckon the whole of the Liffey/Irish Sea was draining in there

The Luas problem is that some of track is not securely fastened to its supports on the non-road sections which apparently may cause excesive widening of the tracks. I believe the contractor has to repair this at night when there are no trams running and will foot the bill themselves.

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 10:05pm

sameoldname wrote:

A German Toll Project
Eschede train disaster (I'm including this because it was a design fault)
Nicoll Highway collapse (Another design fault, apparently "Arguments were made that readings of instruments on site have indicated that things were not going as planned, but the warnings were not acted upon.")

You have cited three projects;

1> A German Toll Road which will be shock horror 12 months behind target.

The National Development is at least 5 if not more years behind target on most key routes and a platform for change was left to gather dust on a shelf for over 5 years.

2> The Eschede disaster occured 8 years ago and although it may have been caused by a design fault the fault was the manufacturers and not DB therefore it is disingenous to argue that the German Government was in any way culpable. Manufacturers

In Ireland despite 12 years of economic boom we have trains that go 90mph and timetables that are so padded that there is little point in the trains exceeding 60mph on all but two or three scheduled services.

3> Singapore; the link in question fails to display when the Circle Line project was orginally scheduled for completion. For the record Singapore introduced a fully automated train route in 2003 and are on another level when it comes to public transport.

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 10:16pm

Diaspora wrote:

2> The Eschede disaster occured 8 years ago and although it may have been caused by a design fault the fault was the manufacturers and not DB therefore it is disingenous to argue that the German Government was in any way culpable. Manufacturers

But thats the thing, the Irish government isn't responsible for the problems with surface of the M4 nor the LUAS or Port tunnel, the government hands out contracts for these projects and its the contractors responsibility that the are built to specification which was my original point. We hold the government responsible for things that are built for them, not by them.

All the articles I pointed out earlier were government projects but it was not the governments fault that they went wrong, why do you think it's any different with the M4 or anything else in this country? It's too easy to blame the government in my opinion for these things.

parsi · 24-06-2006 10:30pm

Diaspora wrote:

Singapore and Germany have completed much larger and more intricate projects that have come in on time and on budget.

The Germans had difficulty in planning for enough toilets in their new Berlin Hauptbahnhof -can you imagine if Irish Rail made that mistake ?

http://shortnews.stern.de/shownews.cfm?id=624547&CFID=17183151&CFTOKEN=59845380
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/05/30/896234.html

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 10:34pm

New main station in the everyday life test In the building of prestige first lack - too little place for taxis - show up first class passengers are located in the rain of Florentine differently On inspire-tumble over the new main station follows the disillusionment. Two days after start-up show up the first lack. Already before the station the taxes stand themselves mutually in the way. At the south side no taxi critical point is out-described, which does not prevent the drivers however to fetch the waiting customers there. “That is probably the largest station with the smallest taxi ramp”, grumbles Bodo Düring. Planning is an absolute disaster. Finally the taxis are forced to form on the narrow road on the Friedrich cunning bank a row where they became forced the traffic hold-up.

Did Ivor Callely get a job in Die Welt?

Diaspora · 24-06-2006 10:45pm

sameoldname wrote:

All the articles I pointed out earlier were government projects but it was not the governments fault that they went wrong, why do you think it's any different with the M4 or anything else in this country? It's too easy to blame the government in my opinion for these things.

For 8 years the government dithered around commencing schemes. funding them and most critically monitoring the institutions such as the RPA and NRA in monitoring the construction process and final condition checks prior to handover.

In 2005 after the NRA were lacerated by the Comptroller & Auditor General the pressure it appears to have been heaped on the NRA to get projects finished on time or early because an election was on the horizon. The thinking behind this is that maybe despite the fact that most projects had come in way over budget that early completion would be an effective PR play to mask the cost over runs.

Whatever way you look at the M4 situation the fact is that the NRA signed off on this scheme as being in the specified condition only to find that a year later 10% of the overall surface will have to be replaced at huge inconvenience to 1000's of commuters and commercial travellers.

A Dub in Glasgo · 24-06-2006 11:11pm

sameoldname wrote:

But thats the thing, the Irish government isn't responsible for the problems with surface of the M4 nor the LUAS or Port tunnel, the government hands out contracts for these projects and its the contractors responsibility that the are built to specification which was my original point. We hold the government responsible for things that are built for them, not by them.

A client is responsible for the following

1) Production of the specification
2) Awarding the contracts
3) Management of those contracts

I have seen the government representatives fail in all of the above at various times.

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 11:29pm

Diaspora wrote:

For 8 years the government dithered around commencing schemes. funding them and most critically monitoring the institutions such as the RPA and NRA in monitoring the construction process and final condition checks prior to handover.

In 2005 after the NRA were lacerated by the Comptroller & Auditor General the pressure it appears to have been heaped on the NRA to get projects finished on time or early because an election was on the horizon. The thinking behind this is that maybe despite the fact that most projects had come in way over budget that early completion would be an effective PR play to mask the cost over runs.

Whatever way you look at the M4 situation the fact is that the NRA signed off on this scheme as being in the specified condition only to find that a year later 10% of the overall surface will have to be replaced at huge inconvenience to 1000's of commuters and commercial travellers.

You're going to have to provide evidence of these claims or I shall take them as idle speculation.

It seems to me that the damage to the surface was not self evident when construction was complete and only appeared after a period of regular use. I doubt the NRA would have signed off on it if they knew of the defect when they had ten months to fix it which would have cost the contractor not the NRA.
As far as I understand the budget of the M4 mostly came from the Eurolink consortium and any budget over-runs would be passed on to them and not the government so it doesn't make sence to push foward opening it to cover up being over-budget.

sameoldname · 24-06-2006 11:33pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

A client is responsible for the following

1) Production of the specification
2) Awarding the contracts
3) Management of those contracts

I have seen the government representatives fail in all of the above at various times.

I'm not disputing that, what I am disputing is that the failing of the surface covering on the M4 is the governments fault. Blame the government when it's they're fault but don't blame them for everything, which some people have a tendency to do. Thats all I'm saying.

Victor · 25-06-2006 12:43am

sameoldname wrote:

But thats the thing, the Irish government isn't responsible for the problems with surface of the M4

But they accepted a substandard product on behalf of the public.

sameoldname wrote:

I'm not disputing that, what I am disputing is that the failing of the surface covering on the M4 is the governments fault. Blame the government when it's they're fault but don't blame them for everything, which some people have a tendency to do. Thats all I'm saying.

Bertie took the credit back in December, he can take the flak.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=462&docID=2371
http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/2005/htmltext,1949,en.html
http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7193&lang=ENG&loc=1850

sameoldname wrote:

As far as I understand the budget of the M4 mostly came from the Eurolink consortium and any budget over-runs would be passed on to them and not the government so it doesn't make sence to push foward opening it to cover up being over-budget.

If you read the article "Of the total cost of €420m, the State paid €100m for the land and a further €170m towards construction costs." 270/420=62.3%

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 1:13am

Victor wrote:

But they accepted a substandard product on behalf of the public..

As I already pointed out, how would they know its defective if it isn't self evident that its structurely unsound when constucted? Its the same with alot of products, an iPod may look fine on the outside but the circuitry could be fried and you wouldn't know until you use it, same principal.

Victor wrote:

Bertie took the credit back in December, he can take the flak.

Siac and Cintra who built it also take credit for it in their portfolios of projects but no-one here has yet bother to blame them for the problem because it doesn't suit them for one reason or another. It feels better to blame the government maybe.

Victor wrote:

If you read the article "Of the total cost of €420m, the State paid €100m for the land and a further €170m towards construction costs." 270/420=62.3%

Sorry my fault, but the one supposed ideas of PPP contracts is to prevent cost over-runs which cost the government and thus the tax payer, so it is in Eurolinks interest to make sure the road is fault free as it only costs them money to repair it if it isn't.

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 11:59am

sameoldname wrote:

You're going to have to provide evidence of these claims or I shall take them as idle speculation.

1> Waste: http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=10&aid=575

2> NDP failures: http://www.basis.ie/servlet/blobservlet/NDPexecsum.doc?language=EN at page 11

3> Pressure: One of two things happened either Cullen & Roche pressured the NRA to accepting a substandard product or else the NRA are too incompetant to know the difference. Which is it?

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 1:36pm

Diaspora wrote:

1> Waste: http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=10&aid=575

This is fair enough, this is where the government are responsible and I have no problem with anyone holding them accountable for it.

Diaspora wrote:

2> NDP failures: http://www.basis.ie/servlet/blobservlet/NDPexecsum.doc?language=EN at page 11

That is a word document and it doesn't seem to have pages unless I'm wrong but I take it you are pointing out the responsibilities of the NRA, again I do not disagree but;

Diaspora wrote:

3> Pressure: One of two things happened either Cullen & Roche pressured the NRA to accepting a substandard product or else the NRA are too incompetant to know the difference. Which is it?

Cullen and Roach can pressure the NRA all they want but the road is Eurolinks responsibility and they are the ones who have to pay for this so I doubt the government could push them to willingly lose money for the governments political gain.
Obviously the contractors were also too incompetent to know the difference either so using logical deduction I imagine the problem was not self evident which is my point.

How can you claim on one hand that a german train with a design flaw that causes a serious accident was the manufactures fault, even though DB, a semi-state body accepted these trains on behalf of the german people, but a motorway built for the NRA with a costruction error was somehow the fault of the Irish government? I could accuse you of double standards.

Metrobest · 25-06-2006 1:41pm

I think this story is typical Indo muckraking making a mountain out of a badly-surfaced molehill.

4kms of roadworks doesn't sound like much, you see it on European motorways all the time and it might add, what, 2 minutes to the journey time. The taxpayers don't have to pay for it. It's in Eurolink's interest to get the job done quickly.

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 1:46pm

I agree that replacing 10% of the surface of motorway which will probably occur between all junctions of the motorway is muck raking in addition to unneccessary concrete screeding and wasteful steamrolling.

Are you trying to say that roads having to be resurfaced within 12 months of opening represents acceptable management of public money?

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 2:00pm

sameoldname wrote:

That is a word document and it doesn't seem to have pages unless I'm wrong but I take it you are pointing out the responsibilities of the NRA, again I do not disagree but;

Page 11 of the document written in 1999 lists all motorway routes that were to be completed by 2006 none of them have been completed. I suggest you read it

sameoldname wrote:

Cullen and Roach can pressure the NRA all they want but the road is Eurolinks responsibility and they are the ones who have to pay for this so I doubt the government could push them to willingly lose money for the governments political gain.
Obviously the contractors were also too incompetent to know the difference either so using logical deduction I imagine the problem was not self evident which is my point.

As Victor pointed out above the state has invested €270m out of €420 in this project; they have therefore been negligent in their management of the public interest by accepting a product that was not in line with the specification prepared by the NRA.

sameoldname wrote:

How can you claim on one hand that a german train with a design flaw that causes a serious accident was the manufactures fault, even though DB, a semi-state body accepted these trains on behalf of the german people, but a motorway built for the NRA with a costruction error was somehow the fault of the Irish government? I could accuse you of double standards.

It is not double standards if a new Bus Eireann bus has an accident because a new wheel falls off no-one will blame Bus Eireann if it happens once they will blame the manufacturer who would be pushed by Bus Eireann to rectify the design fault accross the entire fleet should one exist.

Unlike buses the NRA should have monitored construction at all stages of development to ensure that all components were the required specification.

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 2:22pm

I am well aware of the fact that the road network in this country is not being delivered when promised but that blame rests mostly with the Department of Finance not the NRA or Eurolink.

Diaspora wrote:

It is not double standards if a new Bus Eireann bus has an accident because a new wheel falls off no-one will blame Bus Eireann if it happens once they will blame the manufacturer who would be pushed by Bus Eireann to rectify the design fault accross the entire fleet should one exist.

Unlike buses the NRA should have monitored construction at all stages of development to ensure that all components were the required specification.

I believe unless I am mistaken that this is the first time the surface of a motorway in this country has had to repaired because of a flaw like this, it is not like every motorway in the country has the same flaw, so I shall give the NRA the benifit of the doubt.
I ask you again, how if even the company building the road did not know of this flaw that will cost them, not the NRA to fix, do you expect the NRA to know about said flaw? Unless they ultra-sound the whole road I doubt they could.

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 2:33pm

sameoldname wrote:

I am well aware of the fact that the road network in this country is not being delivered when promised but that blame rests mostly with the Department of Finance not the NRA or Eurolink.

The Department of Finance under McCreevy signifiacntly under-invested in the future of this country and this was done with the full support of the 83 government TDs who sit An Dail.

sameoldname wrote:

I believe unless I am mistaken that this is the first time the surface of a motorway in this country has had to repaired because of a flaw like this, it is not like every motorway in the country has the same flaw, so I shall give the NRA the benifit of the doubt.

It is probably the first time that it has happened in the EU 15 within 12 months along with these other failures

Example 2: the National Roads Authority Primary Routes Improvement Scheme

The National Development Plan proposed investment of €5.6 billion on national roads improvements works in the period 2000 to 2006. However, by mid 2002 the reported estimated cost of completing the national roads improvement program had jumped to €15.6 billion Furthermore, a major part of the program will not be delivered in the period 2000-2006.

Building roads is a worldwide activity. Every possible eventuality has already been encountered in other countries. We are familiar with many countries that have fifty and sixty years experience of the mass construction of national road and motorway networks, including Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc. Everything that the Irish Government needs to know about how to manage a national road-building programme is easily available to them from neighbouring European states.

Therefore, there is really no excuse for the overspend on the road programme. It is incompetence or worse.

When the Comptroller and Auditor General examined the reasons behind the cost increase in the national roads improvement program, it was found that inflation accounted for 40% of the increases; 25% was due to underestimation of costs at the beginning of the program; 16% was due to a systematic failure to cost certain elements of the schemes at the planning stage; 20% due to changes in the scope of projects and new works, with the balance accounted for by large increases in the estimated cost of high profile projects such as the Dublin Port tunnel and the south-eastern section of the M50.

The report by the Comptroller and Auditor General noted that the lack of realistic estimates was the main problem. By the time of the adoption of the national development plan, cost estimation had not even been properly developed within the NRA. A cost estimation function was only employed for the first time in 2000. That is, the NRA had no dedicated in-house expertise to determine or validate the cost of projects until that date.
The audit by the C&AG established that overall, the final cost in these cases averaged out at a startling 42% more that the amount on which tender acceptance was based.

We have a specialist Department of Transport that seems unable to learn the lessons of project management in other countries. Irish people who travel abroad are now used to envying the public transport in Madrid, Stockholm and even in less developed countries. Irish people seem to have wearily accepted that our government has neither the intention nor the ability to plan and implement a good public transport system

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=114n

How can you give anyone with that track record anything other than a P45?

sameoldname wrote:

I ask you again, how if even the company building the road did not know of this flaw that will cost them, not the NRA to fix, do you expect the NRA to know about said flaw? Unless they ultra-sound the whole road I doubt they could.

Ultrasound......

Try employing engineers that actually know what they are doing every other EU 15 state appears to have no problem doing it and do not have to resurface their road projects 12 months later.

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 2:57pm

Diaspora wrote:

The Department of Finance under McCreevy signifiacntly under-invested in the future of this country and this was done with the full support of the 83 government TDs who sit An Dail.

What does that have to do with the M4, the NRA or Eurolink?

Diaspora wrote:

It is probably the first time that it has happened in the EU 15 within 12 months along with these other failures.

Diaspora wrote:

Try employing engineers that actually know what they are doing every other EU 15 state appears to have no problem doing it and do not have to resurface their road projects 12 months later.

Eurolink are a consortium of 1 European and 1 Irish construction companies, SIAC and Ferrovial under the name Cintra.
Ferrioval have built roads in both Europe and North America. Plenty of experience so...

The shareholding breakdown was 66% Cintra and 34% SIAC.

Joan Bruton being a member of the Labour party has an obvious vested interest in making the most of any government failures, hardly unbias. (Not that I disagree with her)

You seem to be bringing up every other project the government screwed up rather than focusing on this one. Just because they screw up elsewhere does not mean that it is their fault on this particular occasion.

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 3:03pm

sameoldname wrote:

What does that have to do with the M4, the NRA or Eurolink?

It has everything to do with the fact that because project activity didn't occur over a smooth timeline the NRA were unable to monitor this development properly. Eurolink cut corners the NRA were too incompetetant to spot it and the commuter will shortly pay to sit in a traffic jam.

sameoldname wrote:

Eurolink are a consortium of 1 European and 1 Irish construction companies, SIAC and Ferrovial under the name Cintra.
Ferrioval have built roads in both Europe and North America. Plenty of experience so...

The shareholding breakdown was 66% Cintra and 34% SIAC.

QED 2 companies cut corners

sameoldname wrote:

Joan Bruton being a member of the Labour party has an obvious vested interest in making the most of any government failures, hardly unbias. (Not that I disagree with her)

You seem to be bringing up every other project the government screwed up rather than focusing on this one. Just because they screw up elsewhere does not mean that it is their fault on this particular occasion.

The fact is that the government invested €270m of taxpayers money into this toll road and that public servants in the NRA did not protect the public interest.

This consortium gerry built an important national asset and the NRA and government allowed it to happen; Joan Burton has a very easy job with the current government.

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 3:12pm

That is complete idle speculation. It was already pointed out in the article that the problem was caused by bad weather and you just 'made up' that Eurolink cut corners. This is pointless if you are going to make up some conspiracy theory and not stick to the facts. Don't let reality get the way of your arguement.

Diaspora · 25-06-2006 3:16pm

Climatic patterns are a matter of fact and substantial records of the prevailing climate could and would have been built into the specification of the works.

I am further unaware of any hundred year event over the past 12 months which may explain your theory that the negilgence was in some way an 'act of god' vs the fact that the surface was laid during inapproriate weather which is a very definite example of corner cutting.

It is therefore only fair and reasonable to consider that Eurolink cut corners the NRA allowed them to and that is the only explanation.

sameoldname · 25-06-2006 3:17pm

Forget it.

John_C · 26-06-2006 1:29am

Diaspora wrote:

The fact is that the government invested €270m of taxpayers money into this toll road and that public servants in the NRA did not protect the public interest.

The public money is protected. The only public interest which is being damaged is a delay of a few minutes as you pass the 4km roadworks on a lower speed limit. I think that most of us can probably live with that.

cast_iron · 26-06-2006 2:04am

This repair work is in the interest on NO ONE, and no agency would have willingly let the fault go if it knew it had to be repaired.
The fact is, Bertie didn't sit and watch the quality of the material as it was laid, so how can one say he was at fault (since the only thing at fault in THIS project is the qualtiy of materials)!
Explain this to me and maybe you have a point!

Yes Bertie does deserve credit...for the funding. His Govt paid for a fair amount of it rem. And because Eurolink were at fault, he should be blamed??

The Govt is responsible for the overall project...but for a bad batch of tarmac materials???...get real!

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 9:04am

John_C wrote:

The public money is protected. The only public interest which is being damaged is a delay of a few minutes as you pass the 4km roadworks on a lower speed limit. I think that most of us can probably live with that.

The 4km which have to be replaced are in various sections of the motorway.

The article indicates that there will be disruptions over random sections i.e. the entire motorway.

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 9:07am

cast_iron wrote:

This repair work is in the interest on NO ONE, and no agency would have willingly let the fault go if it knew it had to be repaired.
The fact is, Bertie didn't sit and watch the quality of the material as it was laid, so how can one say he was at fault (since the only thing at fault in THIS project is the qualtiy of materials)!
Explain this to me and maybe you have a point!

Yes Bertie does deserve credit...for the funding. His Govt paid for a fair amount of it rem. And because Eurolink were at fault, he should be blamed??

The Govt is responsible for the overall project...but for a bad batch of tarmac materials???...get real!

So why do we have a government?

In my opinion governments are elected to manage the public finances and oversee government services and capital projects.

In this case the NRA failed to monitor the contractors who cut corners on this public project therefore the NRA are culpable as is the Minister for the Environment for not monitoring the NRA; Bertie gave Cullen and Roche their elevations to ministerial office he must stand over those appointments.

For too long there has been no accountability at the highest level

utopian · 26-06-2006 9:23am

Diaspora wrote:

So why do we have a government?

In my opinion governments are elected to manage the public finances and oversee government services and capital projects.

The Government does oversee capital projects. They award contracts, enforce contract terms etc.

You seem to think that Government employees should be literally looking over the shoulder of every contractor they employ. That's not oversight - it's duplication.

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 9:37am

The NRA engineers who examined this scheme are supposed to be expert enough to spot that the job has been carried out so badly that 10% of the routes surface will fail in less than a year.

Working in the sector I am unaware of a similar situation anywhere else; for you to say that missing a fault of this scale is duplication displays a lack of experience within the sector.

parsi · 26-06-2006 10:03am

Well who spotted the problem then ?

The problem has been spotted and is being rectified. Surely that's what we all want ?

utopian · 26-06-2006 10:15am

Diaspora wrote:

The NRA engineers who examined this scheme are supposed to be expert enough to spot that the job has been carried out so badly that 10% of the routes surface will fail in less than a year.

Working in the sector I am unaware of a similar situation anywhere else; for you to say that missing a fault of this scale is duplication displays a lack of experience within the sector.

You're right - I am not a roads engineer.

What do you think happened? It seems to me that you are suggesting one of the following:

1. the contractors were aware of the problem, but chose to ignore it
2. the NRA engineers were incompetent
3. the NRA engineers were aware of the problem, but chose to ignore it

Or is there some other explanation clear to the initiated?

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 10:17am

SECTIONS of a €420m motorway opened by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern just months ago are being ripped up and replaced next week because they are breaking up.

Up to 10pc of the M4 toll motorway between Kilcock and Kinnegad on the main Dublin-Galway road has to be replaced, the Irish Independent has learned.

Motorists face lane closures for several weeks to facilitate the replacement of 4km of the 39km motorway.

The 4km which have to be replaced are in various sections of the motorway.

The works have not been completed and it is unclear if the removal will open a pandoras box or no.

What we want are roads that open in accordance with their project specification not a repitition of the above

John_C · 26-06-2006 1:55pm

Diaspora wrote:

The article indicates that there will be disruptions over random sections i.e. the entire motorway.

Fair enough, the delay will be a bit longer than the 2 minutes I tought at first. I think my original point (that it's really not that big a deal) still stands.

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 2:09pm

If the random sections are all over the moroway the lane closures and ancillary signage could make up to 40 kms slow from 120 kph to 70kph presuming that the traffic actually moves at peak times. I don't want to labour the point and will wait to hear how much disturbance occurs.

I just can't believe how accepting some people are of this

John_C · 26-06-2006 2:27pm

Diaspora wrote:

If the random sections are all over the moroway the lane closures and ancillary signage could make up to 40 kms slow from 120 kph to 70kph presuming that the traffic actually moves at peak times. I don't want to labour the point and will wait to hear how much disturbance occurs.

I just can't believe how accepting some people are of this

The reason we're accepting of this is because it's not that big a deal, a private company messed up and a private company will have to pay to fix it. The government, to their credit, had the foresight to put a clause into the contract that both lanes must be kept open during peak traffic so noone will be overly put out.

These things sometimes happen, hold onto your outrage for something of consequence.

Diaspora · 26-06-2006 2:44pm

The government also invested €270m of taxpayers money into this scheme so it is not like they have created any value in preventing the road being closed at peak times for works.

As you have said these things sometimes happen can you provide a link to another project in the developed world where this has happened?

John_C · 26-06-2006 3:09pm

Diaspora wrote:

The government also invested €270m of taxpayers money into this scheme so it is not like they have created any value in preventing the road being closed at peak times for works.

As you have said these things sometimes happen can you provide a link to another project in the developed world where this has happened?

I'm not a roads engineer so I can only give you this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sod%27s_law

bacon&cabbage · 26-06-2006 5:40pm

Put it this way, if I contracted a reputable firm to bulid my house and a week after it was built, the walls start cracking ........ Is this my fault???

OR

I order a car from a reputable car manufacturer and a week later it breaks down ...............Is this my fault?

Of course it isn't, it's the buliders/architects fault that the walls are cracking, and it's the car manufacturers fault that the car is breaking down, the guarantee kicks in and the producer is liable for the repairs at their cost
This is common sense surely ???

The govt paid for the construction of the road in good faith, it turns out its defective and it's being repaired by the construction company at their cost.

Its True we find it way too easy to blame the govt for everything thats wrong in this country just because it seems to be the popular thing to do at the moment. :rolleyes:

Part of €420m motorway to be dug up over 'poor surface'

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