Looking for info on Irish Merchant Marine 1920s-30s

MvN · 01-09-2014 11:40am #1

I'm trying to do some reading on Ireland's merchant marine during the "Inter war" years. From what I've found so far it seems like the number of ships actually registered here and run by Irish companies was pretty small until the later 40s. I've seen some sources saying that during the Emergency they used small coasters to do longer trips on routes like the Lisbon run, so this leads me to think that Ireland's own fleet at the start of the war was pretty minimal?

I'm curious about how involved Irish ships may have been in the tramp trade, what some of the more common ports of call were, and how much time and energy the govt. devoted to building a merchant marine during the period. A lot of the sources I find online seem to focus more on activity during the Emergency, so if anyone has 'pre-war' info that would be great.

Tabnabs · 01-09-2014 11:46am

The Long Watch by Frank Forde is an excellent starting point as he gives a good overview on the small prewar fleet and how they merged into something bigger, out of necessity, during the war.

pedroeibar1 · 01-09-2014 12:24pm

There was nothing in the 1920's but coastal traders were around. From Lemass's appointment as Minister for INdustry & Commerce in 1932 things began to happen. A good read is here

tac foley · 01-09-2014 12:42pm

Hey, Pedro, my grandfather was a clerk for the Cork Steamship Packet Company on the quays in Cork city in the early part of the last century.

tac

whisky_galore · 01-09-2014 12:49pm

Series of books by Malcolm McRanald: The Irish Boats, vol 1 Liverpool - Dublin, vol 2 Liverpool to Cork & Waterford, vol 3 Liverpool Belfast, mostly ferries, cruises etc but might plug a few gaps.

tac foley · 01-09-2014 12:51pm

Sir, if that post was aimed at me, then I thank you profusely for it. If it wasn't. I'm sure the OP will be equally grateful.

tac

pedroeibar1 · 01-09-2014 1:13pm

tac foley wrote: »

Hey, Pedro, my grandfather was a clerk for the Cork Steamship Packet Company on the quays in Cork city in the early part of the last century.

tac

Its biggest shareholder was AFAIK the Leycester family, one of Cork’s “merchant prince” families. In addition to landholdings, they also had investments, one of which was a big stake in the Cork Steam Packet Company, owners of several ships and passenger vessels successively named “Innisfallen” the latter ones verywell known to several generations of Irish emigrants. That shipping line was eventually to become part of B & I Line, before being nationalised and eventually becoming part of Irish Ferries.
The Leycesters had a big house in Montenotte, overlooking the river, built for a Dutchman …something -berg. I think it became a religious institution, no doubt somebody from Cork will clarify…..

MvN · 01-09-2014 1:21pm

Thanks for the replies so far, folks! Had a read through that article you posted, pedroeibar. Very interesting stuff. I had no idea Ireland's "fleet" was so small and the country still so dependent on foreign shipping. Seems a real pity they weren't able to get things together and put more resources in to acquiring some ocean going vessels before the war broke out.
I'm going to see if I can bag a copy of the books recommended by Tabnabs and whiskey.

Cheers!

whisky_galore · 01-09-2014 1:36pm

Another one, with slightly different angle:
DUCKWORTH C L D & LANGMUIR G E - RAILWAY AND OTHER STEAMERS Standard history of all the vessels operated by British & Irish Railway Companies on inland waters, coastal and international services, up to the mid -1960s.

whisky_galore · 01-09-2014 10:11pm

tac foley wrote: »

Hey, Pedro, my grandfather was a clerk for the Cork Steamship Packet Company on the quays in Cork city in the early part of the last century.

tac

Slightly OT...The C of CSP Co had some of the classyiest (sp?) travel posters to come out of this country.:D

http://p2.la-img.com/734/16142/5343478_1_l.jpg

http://www.thecanterburyauctiongalleries.com/files/auctions/auction39/284.jpg

pedroeibar1 · 01-09-2014 10:23pm

Beautiful. Thanks for those!
P.

tac foley · 01-09-2014 10:38pm

If the 'Innisfallen' was anything like the old 'Princess Maud' out of Holyhead to Dún Laoghaire then there must have been much calling out to 'Ruth' over the side...

tac

MvN · 02-09-2014 4:48pm

Does anyone know when the Irish merchant marine became involved in trade in the Pacific? I assumed it wasn't until after the war, but I found a document that has a bit of an odd statement in it:

"Certain warrants and navicerts were required by Irish mercantile marine vessels to pass through Allied waters and enter Allied ports. These were used as an economic weapon, the warrants and navicerts were often withheld, preventing shipments from reaching Ireland.
This could be interpreted as a bid to force the Irish government to join with the Allies, by starving the state into submission. To add to their woes, with the outbreak of war in the Pacific, trade with Japan came to an end."

(I tried posting a link but Boards isn't letting me. It's a document called "The Naval Forces of the Irish State, 1922-1977" by Padhraic O Confhaola).

Is this suggesting Ireland had somehow been involved in Pacific trade before the war broke out in Asia? Seems very unlikely to me, given that none their vessels before the war were ocean going. Are they perhaps suggesting that Ireland imported goods from Asia through Britain? Or am I reading it in the wrong context?

MvN · 06-09-2014 6:58pm

Apologies for the double post, but I've just found something else that confuses me about Irish ships in the period.

Does anyone know why vessels like the Irish Pine and Irish Oak were given British Official Numbers? These ships were registered in Dublin, and operated under neutral colours, so I'm wondering why they were given British numbers. I thought the numbers were supposed to be based on the vessels port of registry, and those ships weren't registered in UK ports.

Missent · 08-09-2014 7:30pm

MvN

A recent book on Irish Shipping by four Wexford historians might provide a clue. It says that the Irish ships needed a navigational certificate or 'navicert' in order to be allowed pass through an Allied blockade and that these certificates were issued by the British Trade Commissioner in Dublin. The book outlines the history of each ship in the Irish Shipping fleet, including the fifteen which were purchased during WWII.

MvN · 08-09-2014 8:55pm

Thanks Missent. Do you know the name of the book?

Missent · 08-09-2014 9:26pm

It's 'Irish Shipping Ltd - A Fleet History' by B. Cleare, B. Boyce, L. Coy & J. Boyce published in 2013.

minmin · 20-10-2014 7:52am

Missent wrote: »

It's 'Irish Shipping Ltd - A Fleet History' by B. Cleare, B. Boyce, L. Coy & J. Boyce published in 2013.

It is an excellent book, costs about €30, But is about Irish Shipping Ltd, which was founded in 1941.
If MvN wants information on "Looking for info on Irish Merchant Marine 1920s-30s",
the book does not cover anything prior to 1941

Frank Fordes book was also mentioned. "The Long Watch: History of the Irish Mercantile Marine in WW II " regarded as the standard work on this subject, but again, it covers the war years. There are some references to earlier years, but it does not cover the 1920s-30s

Just an aside on terminology "Irish Mercantile Marine" is correct.
Americans say "Merchant Marine", in the UK it is "Merchant Navy"
(I am just being fussy)

The role of the government in the decline of the Irish fleet was mentioned, along with the article on Lemass. deV followed a "sinn fein" policy (the original meaning of that therm, not the current political party) deV meant by "sinn fein" that we should grow our own food and eat our own produce. Lemass continued this policy and extended it into manufacturing. He protected 'infant industries' by imposing tariffs on competing foreign imports. Since that was government policy, there was no need for imports or exports, no need for ships. Some writers have maintained that Lemass supported shipping from 1932. There are quotes which support that view. The reality was that the number of Irish ships fell every year. Nothing was done to support shipping. Other governments were subsidizing their fleets. in the 1930's road and rail were not that suitable for heavy loads, sea transport was often preferable. An example was Arklow to Dublin. Dutch coasters squeezed out Irish ships on that route simply on price. The Dutch were subsidized by their government

I will try to reply to other posts in this thread
I hope that my comments are useful

minmin · 20-10-2014 8:23am

MvN wrote: »

Does anyone know when the Irish merchant marine became involved in trade in the Pacific? I assumed it wasn't until after the war, but I found a document that has a bit of an odd statement in it:

"Certain warrants and navicerts were required by Irish mercantile marine vessels to pass through Allied waters and enter Allied ports. These were used as an economic weapon, the warrants and navicerts were often withheld, preventing shipments from reaching Ireland.
This could be interpreted as a bid to force the Irish government to join with the Allies, by starving the state into submission. To add to their woes, with the outbreak of war in the Pacific, trade with Japan came to an end."

(I tried posting a link but Boards isn't letting me. It's a document called "The Naval Forces of the Irish State, 1922-1977" by Padhraic O Confhaola).

Is this suggesting Ireland had somehow been involved in Pacific trade before the war broke out in Asia? Seems very unlikely to me, given that none their vessels before the war were ocean going. Are they perhaps suggesting that Ireland imported goods from Asia through Britain? Or am I reading it in the wrong context?

I agree, it does not make sense - the Japan part. Back in the 1800s there were Irish Ships in the Pacific, but the last Irish ships capable of crossing the Atlantic were sold off by the 30s However there were Whalers in the Antarctic and Inver Tankers had nine ocean-going oil tankers. There were no Irish freight ships in the Pacific, at that time

Those navicerts. They were a way for the UK to ensure that we were not trading with the Nazis. There were instances where they were used to be very awkward for the Irish ships. On the other hand. Our ships needed coal. The UK supplied that coal, in many instances the navicert was issued in the port where the coal was loaded.

Looking for info on Irish Merchant Marine 1920s-30s

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