Brown Hot Water

items · 18-12-2009 11:06pm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Items ,is there any harm in topping up a heating system when it's hot ?

A dose of cold water being introduced close to a roasting hot boiler could cause problems. If the cold water is being introduced to flow and return pipe work in hot press etc their is no real concerns.

Any maintenance to a heating system should be done at cold temperature, normally when you top up a system its down to venting out air etc, again makes sense the colder the better.

brettmirl · 18-12-2009 11:42pm

Hi guys. Am away for the weekend. Water was still the same when I left earlier. I opened the red valve before I left.

Will be interesting to see what the water is like after "sitting" for two days!

Art6 will check the pressure again on Sun evening.

Thanks to you all again for the help and advice. I can see my boiler and pipework becoming a specialist subject on Mastermind at this stage!!!

19-12-2009 1:08am

OP, have you tried running off the water until it's clear then leaving it a day without any heat to see if it stays clear, if it's heat orientated you may find it's bacteria(asper DARTH MAUL) , i have come across brown water with cylinders that got worse the hotter they got, the installer had to put a cleaning solution into the cylinder to get rid of it, also is the immersion new or is it the same as the one out of the old cylinder and have you taken sample of your system water from different places to see if your heating water is dirty.

the boring bit........

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Items ,is there any harm in topping up a heating system when it's hot ?

No, without generalizing, topping up heating system pressure when it's hot will have no impact on a modern gas boiler, if refilling a boiler with cold water was a issue you wouldn't find filling loops incorporated in boiler pipework and manufactures would warn against it in their manuals.

Just to clarify in respect of filling heating systems, mains fed heating systems should have filling loops that are left shut and capped, the mains shouldn't be left on to a mains fed heating system, tank fed systems must have the filling point left open as most gas boilers have the low pressure switch cut out of the boiler to allow the boiler to fire on low pressure leaving it with no protection against loss of water, i know of no boiler manufacture that have designed a tank fed boiler that can have the cold feed isolated and cover it in their instruction manual, so they put in no safety devices for the potential lack of water, technically you can be outside IS813 with this system design as they are not fitted to manufactures instructions, running a boiler with no circulation in my experience wouldn't lead to a safety valve blowing but to the boiler stat or limit stat shutting down the boiler to protect the pump,expansion vessel etc.. from being damaged, i dare say the noise would stop a second attempt:D , Gary.

JamesM · 19-12-2009 1:35am

Edit - Post deleated - I'm backing off - Gary and Art know a lot more about this than I do

Jim

19-12-2009 1:50am

No, i have just made more mistake:)

items · 19-12-2009 12:06pm

gary71 wrote: »

OP, have you tried running off the water until it's clear then leaving it a day without any heat to see if it stays clear, if it's heat orientated you may find it's bacteria(asper DARTH MAUL) , i have come across brown water with cylinders that got worse the hotter they got, the installer had to put a cleaning solution into the cylinder to get rid of it, also is the immersion new or is it the same as the one out of the old cylinder and have you taken sample of your system water from different places to see if your heating water is dirty.

the boring bit........

No, without generalizing, topping up heating system pressure when it's hot will have no impact on a modern gas boiler, if refilling a boiler with cold water was a issue you wouldn't find filling loops incorporated in boiler pipework and manufactures would warn against it in their manuals.

Just to clarify in respect of filling heating systems, mains fed heating systems should have filling loops that are left shut and capped, the mains shouldn't be left on to a mains fed heating system, tank fed systems must have the filling point left open as most gas boilers have the low pressure switch cut out of the boiler to allow the boiler to fire on low pressure leaving it with no protection against loss of water, i know of no boiler manufacture that have designed a tank fed boiler that can have the cold feed isolated and cover it in their instruction manual, so they put in no safety devices for the potential lack of water, technically you can be outside IS813 with this system design as they are not fitted to manufactures instructions, running a boiler with no circulation in my experience wouldn't lead to a safety valve blowing but to the boiler stat or limit stat shutting down the boiler to protect the pump,expansion vessel etc.. from being damaged, i dare say the noise would stop a second attempt:D , Gary.

Correct and right. Boilers which require over 1 bar pressure tend to be fed from mains, only in this case the supply must be turned off and disconnected . Having mains water connected to a heating supply permanently is not allowed, valves, non return valves and so on still allow bacteria to pass through, makes sense really as you don't want to be drinking heating water. As mentioned these boilers will lock out should boiler loose water, pressure drops below the required amount. Gas boilers with gravity supplies (attic tank) should be left with supply open to save future problems, their should be no reason to turn off supply, turning off supply is only avoiding any problem created by having supply on.

I've seen jobs, fresh new sites with boiler permanently connected to mains via a pressure regulating valve, no idea how Co Council water division allowed it or how Bord Gas gave the installation the all clear.

As for running a boiler with no circulation, I guess its each to their own, boilers are not designed to run with no circulation and the amount of safety protection varies depending on boiler model. A top spec boiler may sense no circulation and shut down before damage but not all boilers are top spec.

I've been on sites with apprentices during the house bashing times, boilers being run for first time. A few cases happened when boiler was not filled correctly, with no circulation the boiler quickly overheated and blew straight out safety. Safety pipe should terminate 4" above ground but in Ireland they all terminate where ever is most handy, normally at head height. Unlucky for the plasterer who was out patching up outside when the safety blew. Same site had a number of visits from boiler engineer to replace parts after the boilers failed to return from lockout, all work carried out under guarantee because of manufacturing faults, had the boilers not have locked out under no circulation, faults wound not have been found. After my experience I never leave boiler safety down to boiler controls as they too can fail.

JamesM · 19-12-2009 8:35pm

items wrote: »

A boiler filler valve should be left open, end of.

Two reasons why it's not "end of"
Many systems are filled from the domestic water tank in the attic. If the non return valve fails or leaks, the water from the heating system will get into the domestic water tank when the pressure builds. It can discolour the water and taste rather dodgy if you do your teeth in the bathroom :eek:.
With older boilers, it is a good idea to keep the filler valve closed because one day the boiler is going to burst and start leaking. This is like turning on a tap in the middle of the house and flooding the place. If the valve is closed, then only a certain amount of water will escape. I supose after 40 years, you experience more of these incidences than you would in a short 15 years

:D:D
Jim.

yoshytoshy · 19-12-2009 9:01pm

gary71 wrote: »

No, without generalizing, topping up heating system pressure when it's hot will have no impact on a modern gas boiler, if refilling a boiler with cold water was a issue you wouldn't find filling loops incorporated in boiler pipework and manufactures would warn against it in their manuals.
, Gary.

Gary ,your forgetting about the expansion vessel. You can damage it if you fill a system when the vessel is fully expanded.

I was only asking items ,to see what he/she might say about the situation.

JamesM · 19-12-2009 9:07pm

brettmirl wrote: »

Hi guys. Am away for the weekend. Water was still the same when I left earlier. I opened the red valve before I left.

Will be interesting to see what the water is like after "sitting" for two days!

Art6 will check the pressure again on Sun evening.

Thanks to you all again for the help and advice. I can see my boiler and pipework becoming a specialist subject on Mastermind at this stage!!!

You go ahead and enjoy your weekend - we're having great fun here

:D:D

JamesM · 19-12-2009 9:10pm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Gary ,your forgetting about the expansion vessel. You can damage it if you fill a system when the vessel is fully expanded.

I was only asking items ,to see what he/she might say about the situation.

If you don't fill the system above 2 bar the expansion vessel should be OK.
Jim.

yoshytoshy · 19-12-2009 9:18pm

Jim ,I've replaced around 50 expansion vessels and about 5 of those where on mains fed systems.
More often than not ,the vessels were burst on systems that needed topping up a lot.

I do maintenance calls on all sorts of gas installations, I have to get systems going that no one else will touch.:(

JamesM · 19-12-2009 9:20pm

items wrote: »

.

I've been on sites with apprentices during the house bashing times, boilers being run for first time. A few cases happened when boiler was not filled correctly, with no circulation the boiler quickly overheated and blew straight out safety.

It is most likely that the problem was that there was air trapped at the top of the boiler (it was not vented properly) and the water boiled because the water level in the boiler was not reaching the thermostat probes and the boiler never turned off - not because there was no circulation. I'll have another glass of red please

Jim.
PS Well done Leinster !

JamesM · 19-12-2009 9:30pm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Jim ,I've replaced around 50 expansion vessels and about 5 of those where on mains fed systems.
More often than not ,the vessels were burst on systems that needed topping up a lot.

I do maintenance calls on all sorts of gas installations, I have to get systems going that no one else will touch.:(

Hi Yosh, I think that it is more because corrosion in a system damages the diaphragm, than that the actual pressure is too high. You can control the pressure when you are filling. Anyway what would I know - I'm not even a plumber

:eek:
Jim.

yoshytoshy · 19-12-2009 10:11pm

JamesM wrote: »

Hi Yosh, I think that it is more because corrosion in a system damages the diaphragm, than that the actual pressure is too high. You can control the pressure when you are filling. Anyway what would I know - I'm not even a plumber :eek:
Jim.

Yeah ,thats true.(dirt can destroy the rubber)

I just avoid filling when the system is hot ,when you vent you can actually let the pressure off the vessel aswell.
Then when the system cools ,you can pull the ar5e out of it.

sullzz · 19-12-2009 11:18pm

jesus that plumbing is a mess, as far as i can make out it looks like this ...

P1010539.JPG
1. cold feed to heating
2. lazy ass attempt of a bypass
3. summer valve / flow to radiator manifold at back of cylinder
4. primary return (boiler return)
5. primary flow ( boiler flow)
6. balancing valve / coil return valve
7. return from radiator manifold at back of cylinder

i think your problem with the brown water is defo a leaking coil , i would get your plumber back to replace the cylinder (more than likley a manufactures fault) and to sort out your pipework as its a disaster , it would be no harm to get him to label each valve as its a great help for other plumbers when they arrive to jobs like yours to do work.

JamesM · 20-12-2009 12:13am

sullzz wrote: »

jesus that plumbing is a mess, as far as i can make out it looks like this ...

P1010539.JPG
1. cold feed to heating
2. lazy ass attempt of a bypass
3. summer valve / flow to radiator manifold at back of cylinder
4. primary return (boiler return)
5. primary flow ( boiler flow)
6. balancing valve / coil return valve
7. return from radiator manifold at back of cylinder

i think your problem with the brown water is defo a leaking coil , i would get your plumber back to replace the cylinder (more than likley a manufactures fault) and to sort out your pipework as its a disaster , it would be no harm to get him to label each valve as its a great help for other plumbers when they arrive to jobs like yours to do work.

By George, he's got it

I do believe that you are right. We got the 2 circuits mixed up - rads and coil.
Now for the bonus point - tell us what all the pipes on the right hand side are :eek:
The brown water was there before the new cylinder - it could be a faulty cylinder, but is that really likely - what else can it be - continued next week

Jim.

sullzz · 20-12-2009 1:47am

here it goes jim,

P1010538.JPG
no.1. cold feed to cylinder

P1010532.JPG
no.2. this copper pipe loops around in qualpex from a 3/4" elbow and goes under a floorboard who knows to where it is the same pipe as marked no.2 in next pic.
P1010528.JPG

P1010530.JPG
no.3. hot feed to services and expansion
no.4. cold feed to services
both no.3 and no.4. can be seen passin through the floor in
bends at the side of the cylinder

Now heres the good one . in this picture P1010529.JPG you can see by zooming in that no.5. is a transformer for an aqualisa pumped shower and it would make sense that no.6. is the hot feed to the aqualisa.
All above is just a guess from the pics provided .

items · 20-12-2009 2:54am

JamesM wrote: »

Two reasons why it's not "end of"
Many systems are filled from the domestic water tank in the attic. If the non return valve fails or leaks, the water from the heating system will get into the domestic water tank when the pressure builds. It can discolour the water and taste rather dodgy if you do your teeth in the bathroom :eek:.
With older boilers, it is a good idea to keep the filler valve closed because one day the boiler is going to burst and start leaking. This is like turning on a tap in the middle of the house and flooding the place. If the valve is closed, then only a certain amount of water will escape. I supose after 40 years, you experience more of these incidences than you would in a short 15 years :D:D
Jim.

Goodman, 40 years experience. In all those 40 years have you not figured out its better to replace a faulty NRV, sorry to say turning off the valve is a lazy mans approach to fixing a problem. Same goes to old systems, an old system to me is a system with a dedicated feed and expansion tank, if you shut off the feed to save possible flooding your cutting off the expansion, if you've been closing the valve on this type of system your creating a problem, no expansion. It would make far more sense to leave the valve open, have yearly system drain, flush and fill with inhibitor should the heating system be temperamental or leak prone.

Turing off vlaves is avoiding problems, not fixing them.

items · 20-12-2009 3:11am

JamesM wrote: »

It is most likely that the problem was that there was air trapped at the top of the boiler (it was not vented properly) and the water boiled because the water level in the boiler was not reaching the thermostat probes and the boiler never turned off - not because there was no circulation. I'll have another glass of red please
Jim.
PS Well done Leinster !

Boiler on with no movement of water through heat exchanger led to boiler overheating.

No movement of water through heat exchanger when boiler is on = no circulation.

JamesM · 20-12-2009 1:54pm

items wrote: »

Goodman, 40 years experience. In all those 40 years have you not figured out its better to replace a faulty NRV, sorry to say turning off the valve is a lazy mans approach to fixing a problem. Same goes to old systems, an old system to me is a system with a dedicated feed and expansion tank, if you shut off the feed to save possible flooding your cutting off the expansion, if you've been closing the valve on this type of system your creating a problem, no expansion. It would make far more sense to leave the valve open, have yearly system drain, flush and fill with inhibitor should the heating system be temperamental or leak prone.

Turing off vlaves is avoiding problems, not fixing them.

It would seem that you have not come across the common occurance where a sealed system is filled by a link from the hotwater feed to the cylinder, through a gate valve and a NRV. Legal or not, many estates and private houses around Dublin have this system. As I said, experience. Oh by the way, in case you didn't catch it earlier - I am not a plumber and have never replaced or fitted a NRV

Jim.

JamesM · 20-12-2009 1:57pm

items wrote: »

Boiler on with no movement of water through heat exchanger led to boiler overheating.

No movement of water through heat exchanger when boiler is on = no circulation.

Dual thermostat in boiler stops overheating - whether there is circulation or not - except if there is air trapped in the top of the boiler, or both sides of the stat are faulty.
Jim.

JamesM · 20-12-2009 2:05pm

Now the big one Sullzz - can you figure out from all that information why the OP's water is brown ?
I've been playing games with "items" and gone off the original topic

Jim.

20-12-2009 3:47pm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Gary ,your forgetting about the expansion vessel. You can damage it if you fill a system when the vessel is fully expanded.

A expansion vessel is designed to handle 3 bar, anything above that the blow off kicks in, so over pressurising hot or cold wouldn't lead to damage to the expansion vessel unless(as per Mr M) the membrane is already weakened by the contaminated system water

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I do maintenance calls on all sorts of gas installations, I have to get systems going that no one else will touch.:(

For my sins, I'm the fella you call in if you can't fix the boiler:eek:(if it's one of mine) Gary.

yoshytoshy · 20-12-2009 4:52pm

gary71 wrote: »

For my sins, I'm the fella you call in if you can't fix the boiler:eek:(if it's one of mine) Gary.

Don't know any gary's tbh ,I've done all the main boiler manufacture courses in dublin:(
Installed a couple of thousand boilers at this stage.

Anyways ,I only put in worcester boilers and they don't need any calls made:D

brettmirl · 20-12-2009 7:07pm

gary71 wrote: »

OP, have you tried running off the water until it's clear then leaving it a day without any heat to see if it stays clear, if it's heat orientated you may find it's bacteria(asper DARTH MAUL) , i have come across brown water with cylinders that got worse the hotter they got, the installer had to put a cleaning solution into the cylinder to get rid of it, also is the immersion new or is it the same as the one out of the old cylinder and have you taken sample of your system water from different places to see if your heating water is dirty.

I've not tried that yet, but I have taken water from the tank in the attic and from the cold tap in the bathroom and boiled it to see if it changed colour and it didnt.

sullzz wrote: »

i think your problem with the brown water is defo a leaking coil , i would get your plumber back to replace the cylinder (more than likley a manufactures fault) and to sort out your pipework as its a disaster , it would be no harm to get him to label each valve as its a great help for other plumbers when they arrive to jobs like yours to do work.

The cylinder is new. The brown water was happening before the cylinder was changed. I'd hardly have that much bad luck to have picked up a new cylinder with a faulty coil. The plumber said he tested the coil before he installed the new cylinder too.

sullzz wrote: »

Now heres the good one . in this picture P1010529.JPG you can see by zooming in that no.5. is a transformer for an aqualisa pumped shower and it would make sense that no.6. is the hot feed to the aqualisa.
All above is just a guess from the pics provided .

That Aqualisa shower was taken out 3 years ago and replaced by a Triton. I just never took out that transformer. I think there is a pipe coming directly down from the attic to feed that shower.

Been away from two days, so there's been no flow of hot water. Heating was on for a hour every day while I was away.
The red valve was fully open all the time and the black tap slightly open. The could has gotten worse. No idea if it's cause those taps are now open or cause the water has been sitting?

With the heating on now, the pressure on the boiler is reading at 10.
Whereas when those valves were closed, it used to go up to 20 when the heating reached its high temp.

items · 20-12-2009 7:41pm

JamesM wrote: »

It would seem that you have not come across the common occurance where a sealed system is filled by a link from the hotwater feed to the cylinder, through a gate valve and a NRV. Legal or not, many estates and private houses around Dublin have this system. As I said, experience. Oh by the way, in case you didn't catch it earlier - I am not a plumber and have never replaced or fitted a NRV
Jim.

I've spent years working in Dublin North and South along with plenty of other areas all over Ireland, never once have I seen a tee coming off cold feed to cylinder to provide a supply for heating. Either your mixing up pipes or making up story's as you go along.

sullzz · 20-12-2009 8:44pm

ITEMS how can you honestly say that you have never seen a supply to a heating system taken from the cold feed to the cylinder , it is really common and more so in new houses.

items · 20-12-2009 9:05pm

sullzz wrote: »

ITEMS how can you honestly say that you have never seen a supply to a heating system taken from the cold feed to the cylinder , it is really common and more so in new houses.

For one, its completely against regulations. Cold feed to cylinder must have its own dedicated supply. Its far from common to have cylinder cold feed supplying heating. I can honestly save I've never seen it once.

The sooner water rates come out the better, at least then water supply will hold some form of regulation. Every tom dick and harry in Ireland some how manages to interfere with plumbing and heating with little to no qualification or experience.

sullzz · 20-12-2009 9:37pm

items wrote: »

For one, its completely against regulations. Cold feed to cylinder must have its own dedicated supply. Its far from common to have cylinder cold feed supplying heating. I can honestly save I've never seen it once.

The sooner water rates come out the better, at least then water supply will hold some form of regulation. Every tom dick and harry in Ireland some how manages to interfere with plumbing and heating with little to no qualification or experience.

im not saying that it is the correct thing to do , what im saying is that it is done and i find it hard to believe that you have never seen it done.
And when water rates come in I dont think it will stop much people undertaking their own plumbing D.I.Y. projects ,or, cowboy plumbers doing what they do.

yoshytoshy · 20-12-2009 10:15pm

This thread is like the X-factor ,everyone is singing their own tune:D

JamesM · 20-12-2009 10:42pm

items wrote: »

Either your mixing up pipes or making up story's as you go along.

I'll ignore that

I could name over 600 house on three estates, built by well known builders where the heating system is fed from the cold feed to the cylinder.

Now - can anyone help the OP :rolleyes:
Jim.

brettmirl · 20-12-2009 10:51pm

FFS - what else can go wrong!?!?

Now my gas boiler wont fire. When i turned it on, it made some clunking noises and then an error light came on, which according to the manual is "High Limit Thermostat Lock-Out".

Have tried resetting it a few times over the last hour and no joy

Am fecking freezin :mad:

items · 20-12-2009 11:56pm

brettmirl wrote: »

FFS - what else can go wrong!?!?

Now my gas boiler wont fire. When i turned it on, it made some clunking noises and then an error light came on, which according to the manual is "High Limit Thermostat Lock-Out".

Have tried resetting it a few times over the last hour and no joy

Am fecking freezin :mad:

Sorry to hear, I did mention earlier all the messing about with turning on and off valves could effect the boiler. How did you reset the boiler? Sometimes boiler wont reset until its completely turned off, switch off the boiler then switch off the boilers fused supply. Turn it all back on again, might reset the boiler. See how it goes after that.

items · 20-12-2009 11:57pm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

This thread is like the X-factor ,everyone is singing their own tune:D

True, plenty of want to be's here.

items · 21-12-2009 12:02am

JamesM wrote: »

I'll ignore that
I could name over 600 house on three estates, built by well known builders where the heating system is fed from the cold feed to the cylinder.

Now - can anyone help the OP :rolleyes:
Jim.

If these houses are new builds which require a new water main, what ever area they are in the Co Council water division must be no use for allowing that kind of installation. Same goes to the builders and the plumbers. I still don't believe it's done, spent best part of 5 years in both new and old houses all over Dublin. I'll believe it when I see it.

As for the OP, I've made my suggestion, nothing further can be done until both hot and heating are pressure tested. I advised to leave well enough alone until a plumber arrives, warned that turning on and off valves could effect boiler. The OP's boiler has now locked out on high limit, might be nothing to do with the tinkering around but its a coincidence its now locked out.

21-12-2009 2:12am

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Don't know any gary's tbh ,I've done all the main boiler manufacture courses in dublin:(
Installed a couple of thousand boilers at this stage.

Anyways ,I only put in worcester boilers and they don't need any calls made:D

yoshytoshy I'm glad you're on first name terms with all the manufactures technicians:) Gary is just my stage name, who is going to buy my boilers if I'm on here posting about their errors of judgment in not reading the manufactures instructions, it's not easy explaining to a RGI the reason their installation has a intermittent water leak is because they have plumbed the washing machine into the heating circuit, but i get the chance to bitch about it here:D. Gary?

21-12-2009 2:14am

items wrote: »

True, plenty of want to be's here.

I want to be paid more:(

21-12-2009 2:22am

As items has posted you would have to open the things you closed, isolate the power to the boiler for a couple of minutes to do a hard reset, then if the boiler has cooled it should re fire, as for the samples of water as you are concerned heating water is getting into your cylinder it would be worth while looking at the colour of water in your rads, your plumber can do this, if you find the heating water is relatively clean and clear it would be less likely to be heating water you are getting, Gary.

JamesM · 21-12-2009 10:38am

items wrote: »

True, plenty of want to be's here.

I wanna know it all and be always right - like items

JamesM · 21-12-2009 6:14pm

brettmirl wrote: »

I've not tried that yet, but I have taken water from the tank in the attic and from the cold tap in the bathroom and boiled it to see if it changed colour and it didnt.

The cylinder is new. The brown water was happening before the cylinder was changed. I'd hardly have that much bad luck to have picked up a new cylinder with a faulty coil. The plumber said he tested the coil before he installed the new cylinder too.

That Aqualisa shower was taken out 3 years ago and replaced by a Triton. I just never took out that transformer. I think there is a pipe coming directly down from the attic to feed that shower.

Been away from two days, so there's been no flow of hot water. Heating was on for a hour every day while I was away.
The red valve was fully open all the time and the black tap slightly open. The could has gotten worse. No idea if it's cause those taps are now open or cause the water has been sitting?

Is the tank in the attic dirty ? Is there a brown deposit or coating in it ? could anything be stirring up the water in the tank - overflow pipe ? Is there actually a seperate header tank for the heating in the attic ?
Jim.

Brown Hot Water

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