Why Nintendo Won't Grow Up - Wired

Matt Simis · 12-12-2002 11:56am #1

Good article, nice to see Im not the only one that views Nintendo as the campy Disney of the Game Industry.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/nintendo.html

"At this point," Blackley continues, "Miyamoto is making games for his fans. Granted, there are millions of them, and it's smart business, but most are kids. He's not opening up adult audiences. He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."

matt

Big Chief · 12-12-2002 12:28pm

ive always thought nintendo have been aimed at the 13--- age, so its no surprise to hear this topic come up again..

playstation/ps2 all the way baby

also thought that the xbox has been dismal since its release, the games options are also crap, most of the games that have been released for it so far, are laughable...

think the only one i really enjoyed for it was halo, and that was only on multi player co-op

Shinji · 12-12-2002 12:43pm

So Nintendo will keep on making games which elicit a sense of child-like wonder, are innovative and clever but yet simple and easy to understand...

Sounds good to me. Not everyone wants every videogame to be Goodfellas or the fucking Matrix.

The Nintendo demographic certainly skews younger than the Xbox, for example, but that's not to say that most of Miyamoto's fans are kids by any means. I think the inhabitants of this board bear that one out.

Nintendo is less the "campy Disney" of videogames, and more the "sublime Ghibli" of videogames. Miyamoto is to gaming what Hayao Miyzaki is to animation; someone who creates amazing, magical games that kids love and any adult who isn't braindead or terrified of admitting to liking something that doesn't feature fast cars or bullet time can love equally.

I've got no time for Ninty's current business practices regarding the treatment of Europe, and I think they need to pull their finger out of their ar$e in a lot of ways, but frankly anyone in the industry laying into Nintendo that way is just experiencing sour fucking grapes.

theciscokid · 12-12-2002 12:46pm

language shinji , language

won't someone please think of the children

Matt Simis · 12-12-2002 1:20pm

Well, the only one "laying" into Nintendo was Seamus Blackley, who now runs an "independent production company". Its hard to see why he would be "experiencing sour fu_king grapes" as you so colorfully put it.

The inhabitants of this board certainly do help the argument that Nintendo dont just cater to children, but then again a lot of the boards user could very will be children and we wouldnt really know??

I check out Nintendo games as they come out, but I am always turned off by the lack of reality. Its true, games dont have to emulate reality to be good, but I prefer gritty realism or a vagary fantasy. Guns over Sunshine.

Its a little odd that your main criticisms against "non-Nintendo" games seem to be centered around only two games, (Max Payne and GTA I imagine). I, however see the world Nintendo shuns, the BF1942's (online games arent seen as the future to Nintendo), Splinter Cell's (too realistic) etc.

My "campy Disney" comment was centered around the fact that those overcautious, god fearing parents of the world see Nintendo games as "safe, harmless drivel for their kids", like Disney movies. I am of the opinion that games should be seen on an equal footing, the image Nintendo portray isnt helping that.

matt

KdjaCL · 12-12-2002 1:44pm

This is the one thing that never makes sence wehn Mags and web pages abuse Nintendo.

I love Nintendo games without a doubt the single greatest games company in the world and cant be touched by any other in terms sheer quality and playability.

Now im 27 (today happy bday me) does that mean im peter pan???

That i only play games that are aimed for kids.
Shinfi got it perfect

Not everyone wants every videogame to be Goodfellas or the ****ing Matrix.

I dont i turn off blood in games if i can cos it bores the tits out of me.
I dont care for someones head exploding and if their head does explode it doesnt make it a great game simply because someone head explodes.

I play games for fun and Nintendo are the only company to deliver that time after time.

Tho wonder when all us kids will grow up

kdjac

Giblet · 12-12-2002 1:49pm

What you fail to realise that this "safe, harmless drivel for their kids", usually have better playability than more "realistic" games.
Sure if I wanted to go around killing people with guns in a realistic manner, wouldn't I just get a gun?

I have all major consoles now, except an X-Box. And I have a good few games, and of all the games I have ever played, It was Nintendo ones I played the most. In fact it seems to me that the console with the highest amount of drivel is the Playstation.
I used to spend hours, days even, playing Goldeneye and MarioKart with my mates. I played Metal Gear Solid for 5 hours, and never played it again. Games like BF1942 just wont be playable in Ireland on any major scale due to 90% of people restricted to 56K, so any online capabilties are practically useless until Broadband is available through-out the country.

I played Vice city, and I thinks its a 'crime' (huhhuh geddit :rolleyes:) that they got away with releasing what is essentially an add-on pack. No-one does sequels like Nintendo, each being essentially a different game (The new
Metroid for example).

Still, my favourite console for games is the Dreamcast.

Retr0gamer · 12-12-2002 4:00pm

I whole heartily agree wirth Shinji.

I have never played a Nintendo game that wasn't brilliant and rarely played a nintendo game that hasn't been exceptional.

Every time I put on a nintendo game I get immersed in the new world that they created for me. Time doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is the exploration of this new and interesting world were nothing is boring and everything is new.
You won't get this experience with so called mature games. GTA is a pick up and play game good for a quick fix. Max Payne and SOF 2 were good until you realised that you have been doing the exact same thing for the last two levels and this continues until the end of the game. There is always something new in a nintendo game.

Almost every advance in gaming has been because of Nintendo. Look what they brought to gaming:
The joypad, Analogue control, the four joypad ports as standard for multiplayer, the video game soundtrack, the first console final fantasy style rpg (Fire Emblem), The platform game (Mario, Donkey Kong), the handheld game (Game and Watch), the handheld console (Gameboy), the first game to actually work in 3D that has yet to be bettered (Mario 64)....Need I go one.

I suggest you get yourself a gamecube for christmas play Metroid Prime, Mario Sunshine and Pikmin before you dish Nintendo again.

KdjaCL · 12-12-2002 4:22pm

So the Q has to be asked where does this kiddish idea come from.
When i was a kid i played them and now im not i still play nintendo.
But most people who started playing games later in life than I think nintendo is for kids and PS is the brand for them.

Unless we are really 12

kdjac

Matt Simis · 12-12-2002 5:41pm

Originally posted by KdjaC
So the Q has to be asked where does this kiddish idea come from.
When i was a kid i played them and now im not i still play nintendo.
But most people who started playing games later in life than I think nintendo is for kids and PS is the brand for them.
kdjac

While its understandable that you are challenging people to redefine the image of Nintendo and video games as a whole.. its pretty obvious where the Kid idea comes from. Firstly, the characters and content are designed to appeal to children. Secondly, Nintendo regulary say they design games to be enjoyed by children. Always have, always will (they say). I didnt start playing games later in life. I started with an Atari 2600, Sega Master System, a PC and a Dec Rainbow 1000, all around the same time. Believe it or not, I got bored with the kids games when I stopped wanting to be a kid.

Originally posted by Retr0gamer
I whole heartily agree wirth Shinji
...
Max Payne and SOF 2 were good until you realised that you have been doing the exact same thing for the last two levels and this continues until the end of the game.
snipped
the first game to actually work in 3D that has yet to be bettered (Mario 64)....Need I go one.
I suggest you get yourself a gamecube for christmas play Metroid Prime, Mario Sunshine and Pikmin before you dish Nintendo again.

Im still not sure why Max Payne and games like SOF2 are being brought up here. Both of those games were pretty dire, I agree, no one is claiming otherwise. What about this, you will never, see Mafia on the GC. Before those of you dismiss Mafia as being another GTA style game, its not, the only real similarity is there are cars in both games. Mafia created a world that was engrossing and believable, but quite child unfriendly.

Im not quite getting your point about Mario 64. There were 3D games before that, even on Nintendo hardware. The only landmarks I remember in that area were Doom (first good looking 2.5D game) and Quake.

While I may very well get a GC, the only games that I find remotely interesting are Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime. Neither of these games are made by Nintendo, they are both 3rd party. I was quite clear my comments are on "Nintendo" themselves.

I hardly think I was dissing Nintendo anyway, I say they make games for children, they say they make games for children.

matt

Swifty · 12-12-2002 8:02pm

You really shouldnt be concerned wether or not the game youre playing is too childish for you. If its fun who cares? If you can't enjoy a great game because you think youre too mature for it I think you need to remove that stick lodged in your arse.

nesthead · 12-12-2002 8:45pm

nintendos games are all fantastic, and i'll listen to none of this bolox that they need to appeal to an adult audience to make more money. anyway japanese and chinese popular culture love cute characters, the games are made in japan and sell the most in that region(i think).

also did anyone else notice how insanly hard super monkey ball got as you progressed further on? no way a kid younger than 12 could complete that, unless you've been playing it since birth!

Shinji · 12-12-2002 8:52pm

I hardly think I was dissing Nintendo anyway, I say they make games for children, they say they make games for children.

Nobody is arguing with that. Nintendo do indeed make games for children - however in the process of doing so, because of the amazing talent they have working there, they make stunningly well-concieved and entertaining games which can be enjoyed by anyone, of any age.

What people are disagreeing with is the idea that games NEED to be more "mature". In general it's only those who really aren't very mature at all that demand mature content...

I'll take a stunning, polished, well-conceived and entertaining Nintendo game designed for kids over a monolithic, overblown, "mature" pile of crap like The Getaway any day of the week.

Retr0gamer · 12-12-2002 9:17pm

It's like when you first play Kingpin and realise that your playing an adult game that is in fact utterly childish.

Matt Simis · 12-12-2002 10:24pm

Originally posted by Shinji
Nobody is arguing with that. Nintendo do indeed make games for children - however in the process of doing so, because of the amazing talent they have working there, they make stunningly well-concieved and entertaining games which can be enjoyed by anyone, of any age.

What people are disagreeing with is the idea that games NEED to be more "mature". In general it's only those who really aren't very mature at all that demand mature content...

I'll take a stunning, polished, well-conceived and entertaining Nintendo game designed for kids over a monolithic, overblown, "mature" pile of crap like The Getaway any day of the week.

Oh Shinji, your casual, matter of fact, abusiveness brings a smile to my face every time.

For the record I wasnt saying that all games need be "mature" from now on, nor do I think its the only way to make money. I just think that Nintendo could use their obviously excellent skills to make some games for a more mature audience. Can you imagine all their best points, in a shockingly gritty game? Without getting too off topic, imagine for a moment that every Nintendo game is the TV Animation series Pokemom or DragonBallZ. Then imagine that they also started releasing things such as Perfect Blue [its a manga film] or Ghost in the Shell. Thats the progession Id love to see from Nintendo, and thats the industry redefining change Blackley (guy from the article) was calling for too.

However, from reading the responses in this thread, such a change would most likely be too radical a departure for some/most of the Nintendo fans.

matt

Matt Simis · 12-12-2002 10:30pm

[I do realise introducing Jap-animation to a thread where Shinji looms is probably a dangerous idea]

DiscoStu · 12-12-2002 10:38pm

Originally posted by Matt Simis
Without getting too off topic, imagine for a moment that every Nintendo game is the TV Animation series Pokemom or DragonBallZ. Then imagine that they also started releasing things such as Perfect Blue [its a manga film] or Ghost in the Shell.

Or maybe La Blue Girl..............wait, no. forget i said that.

Swifty · 13-12-2002 12:40am

imagine for a moment that every Nintendo game is the TV Animation series Pokemom or DragonBallZ. Then imagine that they also started releasing things such as Perfect Blue [its a manga film] or Ghost in the Shell. Thats the progession Id love to see from Nintendo, and thats the industry redefining change Blackley (guy from the article) was calling for too

Would be interesting to see that allright but if miyamoto and nintendo kept their 'cuddly little bunny rabbits' style of games I wouldn't care as long as they're fun. Pikmin is fantastic, I didn't think it was that childish at all and I don't beleive it was created solely for kids. Give them a chance anyway maybe in a few years time you might see a game with cannibal moles having sex with cannibal elephants while the moles eat the other moles and the elephants eat the other elephants... you'd have to be fairly mature to take that in.

Miyamoto's games are cool even if they are slowly but surely turning US ALL GAY!

Shinji · 13-12-2002 2:12am

Actually, I think you're straying off the point here.

The problem isn't mature themes.

The problem is that most game developers are not capable of handling mature themes in a mature way, so it ends up feeling like you're playing something by a bunch of smutty schoolboys who giggled behind their hands at how naughty they were being with all this sex and violence and racism. The Getaway is a perfect case in point of mature themes handled in an immature way. Soldier of Fortune is another. GTA gets away with it because it's basically a comedy.

The other problem - and here's the crux - is people who are incapable of recognising that games (or films, or anime) do not NEED mature themes to be superbly made, entertaining, thought provoking even. In general these are the same people that action movies were marketed to in the early nineties - teenagers who want tits and gore. Fair enough, it's a market - but hearing that market lauded over and over again over the top of downright better games with less "mature" themes is sickening for anyone who actually knows about games.

By the way, the anime films you've picked are interesting. Yes, they're both excellent (well... I don't like GITS, but I realise most people do). However, I actually think the best movies ever made in animated form were Hayao Miyzaki's Laputa and Nausicaa - both aimed at kids but with massive cross generational appeal. They served as a primary inspiration for ICO, by the way. And I've had more fun watching alleged "kids" shows like Steel Angel Kurumi, Nadesico, Evangelion or even PitaTen than I've had watching most "adult" shows.

There's place in the world for all sorts of games, as there is for all sorts of anime - from PitaTen to Hellsing. Suggesting that one type is better than the other is fruitless though - you have to judge each game individually.

(By the way, I'm fully aware that I have very conflicting views to Blackley's on games and where they're going. In fact we sorta had this argument in person at one point, although alcohol was involved which didn't help.)

Kevok · 13-12-2002 2:47am

Nintendo games too kiddy? Bah! I challenge you to play Super Smash Bros. Melee or even Mario Party in a Drunken Stupor with friends and not end up in a fit of laughter.

It's only since the hardware has given the ability to focus on realism that this kiddy argument has erupted. Games should be a release from reality, and IMO Nintendos games do that the best.

DiscoStu · 13-12-2002 2:47am

The problem isn't mature themes.

The problem is that most game developers are not capable of handling mature themes in a mature way

true, but when it is done right the results are amazing. Look at fallout 1 and 2 or planetscape torment. not quite nintendo games but examples of the finest in computer games.

It was an amazing game," says Lorne Lanning, creator of the Oddworld series. "But it was about cute little carrots." He's quick to add that he finds Miyamoto's games inspiring as a designer. "But I don't play them for the same reason I don't watch Powerpuff Girls."

that sums the whole crux of his argument in one sentance and is quite valid. We, the hardcore gamers know miyamoto's work is excellent but your average punter on the street who buys two games a year(fifa 200x and Smackdown: im going to open up a can of whoopass on you but where did i put the damn can opener? etc.) dosnt even know who miyamoto is. all they will see is an overweight plumber with a water gun or his lanky brother with a hoover and say nah i want the new fifa game instead.

Shinji · 13-12-2002 12:30pm

Heh, we'll have to agree to disagree on Fallout and Planescape Torment - I hated them both. Poxy western RPGs, bleh

I do know what you mean, though. The thing is, neither of those used mature themes for the sake of using mature themes. Their gameplay was structured around the environments and storylines they used.

The problem is so many average or poor games having "mature themes" lumped in on top of them to try and sell a few copies more. BMX XXX is a perfect example. The Getaway and Soldier of Fortune are others. Phantasmagoria, anyone?

Would Mario be a better game if they spent a few months making it dark and twisted? No, it wouldn't. Would Zelda be a better game if Link said "motherfuckers" every five seconds and had sex with elven prostitutes in Kokiri forest? No, it sure as hell wouldn't. Would Metroid be a better game if Samus had to battle against hordes of racially stereotyped "comedy" chinese and black people? Jesus christ no.

By the way, Lorne Lanning can fuck off, he's a sleazy scumbag with zero talent as a game developer who screwed over his own staff after they'd slogged at finishing Munch's Oddysee on time for Xbox launch. Egotistical prat. His point is utterly invalid anyway; his unwillingness to play a game because of the theme of it, regardless of the source material, is his own god damned problem and nobody elses.

You'd also be amazed how few people have that problem, frankly. Super Mario Sunshine has sold more copies than Pro Evolution Soccer 2 this Christmas...

Mr E · 13-12-2002 12:51pm

Originally posted by Shinji
Would Zelda be a better game if Link said "motherfuckers" every five seconds and had sex with elven prostitutes in Kokiri forest? No, it sure as hell wouldn't.

C'mere, Fairy.... let me show you the power of my MASTER SWORD!

Seriously though, I'm playing my gamecube more than my PC at the moment simply because gamecube games are so much FUN. I haven't been truly interested in any PC games released in the last few months (not since Mafia). I've got a few shareware type games installed and thats it. On the gamecube, I'm juggling Pikmin, Mario Sunshine, Starfox Adventures and Eternal Darkness (and having great fun with all of them!). And now that the Freeloader is out, I'm pretty sure I'll be playing Metroid Prime by the middle of January......

I think the bottom line is FUN. Not how cartoony the graphics look, not the lack of bad language or violence. Its down to how much you enjoy the games. And Nintendo make FUN games.

So roll on Metroid Prime. Roll on Zelda. Roll on Super Monkey Ball 2. Roll on Wario World. As its been pointed out in another thread, there ain't much out on the PC next year, so I'll be glad of my gamecube.

- Dave.

zAbbo · 13-12-2002 1:21pm

Slightly off thread but, Some of Nintendo games are truly unbelievable, especially there RPG`s.

Chrono Trigger anyone(beats FF easily imho)

I still dig out the n64 for some Mario Kart and Goldeneye

Thorbar · 13-12-2002 1:44pm

Generally I don't give a toss what the context of a game as long as the characters are interesting and the plot isn't crap. Be it a fluffy little bunny or duke nukem I don't mind, its if the game is enjoyable and the plot makes sence. That being said childish drivel would turn me off a game as quickly as the over the top "mature" content of King Pin.

Kevok · 13-12-2002 1:54pm

Chrono Trigger anyone(beats FF easily imho)

That was made by Square, and the Sequel, Chrono Cross was made for the PSX.

Earthbound however, was a Nintendo made RPG, and that was excellent. I don't believe it was ever released in Europe though.

zAbbo · 13-12-2002 1:56pm

Sorry wasnt actually referring to ninty`s developed games, but games which play on the nintendo console.

But Mario RPG was a mix between Square+Nintendo, was also a great game.

I didnt like Chrono Cross

DiscoStu · 13-12-2002 2:13pm

BMX XXX is a perfect example. The Getaway and Soldier of Fortune are others. Phantasmagoria, anyone?

You left out Night Trap

as for you comments on fallout.........:rolleyes:

You'd also be amazed how few people have that problem, frankly. Super Mario Sunshine has sold more copies than Pro Evolution Soccer 2 this Christmas...

But how much has pikmin sold? mario has a lineage of greatness, people know that they are good games. not to mention before the playstation appeared the word mario meant computer game.

A game that did benifit from being made dark and twisted was alice. the actual game mechaics were a pile of steaming dog doo but the central premise was very very good. it even made a bit of a cultural impact, with the film adaptation of it coming. Now if miyamoto was involved with the gameplay design of alice who knows what it could have been.

To lose the social stigma of playing games i belive that they must become more like a novel or a film where emotional attatchments are made to the characters etc. What miyamoto does is fun, lots of fun but essentially they are toys.

Matt Simis · 13-12-2002 2:49pm

Originally posted by DiscoStu
You left out Night Trap as for you comments on fallout.........:rolleyes:

A game that did benifit from being made dark and twisted was alice. the actual game mechaics were a pile of steaming dog doo but the central premise was very very good. it even made a bit of a cultural impact, with the film adaptation of it coming. Now if miyamoto was involved with the gameplay design of alice who knows what it could have been.

To lose the social stigma of playing games i belive that they must become more like a novel or a film where emotional attatchments are made to the characters etc. What miyamoto does is fun, lots of fun but essentially they are toys.

Ah, Alice, a game thats sure to promote a love\hate response.
Good points, however Stu, its hard to see where exactly you stand on the whole matter, you seem to be making good points for both sides ?

matt

PS: I think there are plenty of promising PC games out next year, but thats another matter.

DiscoStu · 13-12-2002 2:57pm

Im an avid fan of nintendo. I think miyamoto has produced some(maybe most) of the finest games that i have ever played and created a company that surpasses its previous work with every step it takes.

however i do belive that they are holding themselves back by concentrating soley on cutesy games.

bonkey · 13-12-2002 3:19pm

Originally posted by Matt Simis
(online games arent seen as the future to Nintendo),

I couldnt let this one slide.

Nintendo are perfectly correct. Online games are not the future. They are simply an alternative market-segment, and one which carries significant new problems and expenses.

I used to play CS a lot, and I mean 7 days a week, minimum of 5 hours a day. Then I discovered something. While I played that amount, I was able to hold my own amongst my fellow online-players. If I didnt stay "in training", then I spent my online time being spanked left right and centre by players who only a week or two previous were my peers. It didnt matter what server I played on, there would always be at least one or two online-addicts who's idea of a good time was slaughtering all comers.

It turned me off online games. I realised that I can either dedicate my life to being competent at one, spend my online hours as cannon-fodder, or find something else to do.

I went with option 3, as have so many other ex-onliners that I know.

Ultimately, online gaming will settle down to have a core cadre of ppl willing to invest the time and money playing games, a second group of ppl who dont mind being cannon-fodder to this core, and a third group who will be ppl who play online for a while and get quickly fed up of having their ass handed to them time after time, and who will quite happily go back to beating up the computer on Easy mode, and save themselves the online subscriptions.

One need only look at the pc market to discover that online games are not the future. CS was the biggest online game in history, and whats their next big project? A single-player version!!!! In fact, most games today are expected to sell with a single-player and an online version, because online games are not the future - simply a second market.

Personally, I wouldnt be that surprised if Ninty are simply waiting for PS/2 or XBox run too quickly towards the online market, neglecting or abandoning their offline market in the mistaken belief that everyone wants online games and it really is the future.

At this point, Ninty will mop up the spare market share, and giggle quietly all the way to the bank.

As for the whole "kids" argument.....I'm a bit confused. People seem to be implying that focussing on a market segment that is under-serviced is somehow a bad thing? I thought that was a key to success in business - find a hole and fill it.

jc

Why Nintendo Won't Grow Up - Wired

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