Police accused over Omagh Bomb

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:05am #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0510/breaking47.html

I remember at the time local people who had been near the courthouse just before the explosion, had wondered at the lack of police around the courthouse area ... considering the courthouse was apparently the target. Plus there is the weirdness that was directing people to Market Street rather than the bus depot, which traditionally where people were directed during a bomb scare (though that may have just be coincidental that people where instead directed to a narrow street with really high buildings and where the bomb just happened to be located).

Relatives of the victims, The Omagh Support and Self Help Group, commissioned the report from a group of London-based consultants and according to one of the relatives " “new and damaging evidence” would be coming out that would strengthen demands for an all-island public inquiry with an international dimension."

I remember the Police Ombudsman came out with concerns based on RUC involvement as well.

I want to hear what this evidence is, but it wont be presented until June. Would it surprise me to hear the RUC helped the realIRA just to ensure they kept their lucratively highly paid ('danger money') jobs? Not in the slightest.

whitelines · 11-05-2012 10:32am

maccored wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0510/breaking47.html

I remember at the time local people who had been near the courthouse just before the explosion, had wondered at the lack of police around the courthouse area ... considering the courthouse was apparently the target. Plus there is the weirdness that was directing people to Market Street rather than the bus depot, which traditionally where people were directed during a bomb scare (though that may have just be coincidental that people where instead directed to a narrow street with really high buildings and where the bomb just happened to be located).

Relatives of the victims, The Omagh Support and Self Help Group, commissioned the report from a group of London-based consultants and according to one of the relatives " “new and damaging evidence” would be coming out that would strengthen demands for an all-island public inquiry with an international dimension."

I remember the Police Ombudsman came out with concerns based on RUC involvement as well.

I want to hear what this evidence is, but it wont be presented until June. Would it surprise me to hear the RUC helped the realIRA just to ensure they kept their lucratively highly paid ('danger money') jobs? Not in the slightest.

The Real IRA carried out this atrocity completely unaided by The RUC - to suggest otherwise is about as close to complete insanity as it gets.

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:35am

whitelines wrote: »

The Real IRA carried out this atrocity completely unaided by The RUC - to suggest otherwise is about as close to complete insanity as it gets.

... so basically the relatives are all mad then? I'll wait til I read their report before coming out with something like that.

I am pie · 11-05-2012 10:37am

whitelines wrote: »

The Real IRA carried out this atrocity completely unaided by The RUC - to suggest otherwise is about as close to complete insanity as it gets.

This.

What disgraceful revisionism. The murderers guiltly of blowing up innocent people were not wearing uniforms.

Sickening weasel words trying to put the blame on anyone other than those swine who blew up those people is utterly shameful.

I am pie · 11-05-2012 10:42am

maccored wrote: »

... so basically the relatives are all mad then? I'll wait til I read their report before coming out with something like that.

That is not what the relatives are alleging, do not twist their words to suit your ridiculous agenda. The allegation is that an operation was active, an attempt was made to try and catch those guilty in the act. It failed spectacularly and tragically. To suggest this was done to preserve the status of the RUC/PSNI is a horrid smear. Shameful.

The relatives deserve truth, they deserve to know why the police operation failed, but they do not deserve to have their quest for justice hijacked by some fantasists with a lunatic agenda.

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:47am

We dont know what the relatives are actually saying, other than they believe the RUC could have done more to stop the bombing. We wont know the full report until they release it.

Who are these "fantasists with a lunatic agenda" you talking about anyway?

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:48am

I am pie wrote: »

This.

What disgraceful revisionism. The murderers guiltly of blowing up innocent people were not wearing uniforms.

Sickening weasel words trying to put the blame on anyone other than those swine who blew up those people is utterly shameful.

Please tell me, in english, what you're actually saying here as you've lost me.

mike65 · 11-05-2012 10:49am

So this whole thread is based on your speculation and supposition?

I am pie · 11-05-2012 10:53am

maccored wrote: »

Please tell me, in english, what you're actually saying here as you've lost me.

I'll just let you read slowly over it once again, maybe it will sink in. I'm not really interested in addressing your comprehension issues.

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:56am

mike65 wrote: »

So this whole thread is based on your speculation and supposition?

no. this whole thread is based on suspicions people have already had, and which the relatives now have a report about. It will be interesting to see what is in the report considering the relatives reckon it will reflect badly on the police force.

I was looking for discussion, but internet warrior 'lookit me im smarts ma' type responses seem to be the name of the game presently.

maccored · 11-05-2012 10:57am

I am pie wrote: »

I'll just let you read slowly over it once again, maybe it will sink in. I'm not really interested in addressing your comprehension issues.

As I thought. Post it and run eh?

maccored · 11-05-2012 11:00am

whitelines wrote: »

The Real IRA carried out this atrocity completely unaided by The RUC - to suggest otherwise is about as close to complete insanity as it gets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/1695813.stm

You obviously class the police ombudsman as insane as well then I assume.

Fenian Army · 11-05-2012 11:42am

I say it will be about another ten minutes before you are accused of being a RIRA supporter trying to absolve them of blame.

Thats what generally happens when you deviate from the "accepted" media version of the "truth" for whatever reason.

I've had suspicions about it in particular the fact that they were not sent to the depot. People forget that bomb scares were not exactly uncommon.

However rather than for the "danger money" I'd suggest it may have been allowed happen to accelerate the peace process and kill off physical force republicanism. Which it did to a large degree.

I'm very eager to read the new evidence.

maccored · 11-05-2012 11:47am

Fenian Army wrote: »

I say it will be about another ten minutes before you are accused of being a RIRA supporter trying to absolve them of blame.

Thats what generally happens when you deviate from the "accepted" media version of the "truth" for whatever reason.

I've had suspicions about it in particular the fact that they were not sent to the depot. People forget that bomb scares were not exactly uncommon.

However rather than for the "danger money" I'd suggest it may have been allowed happen to accelerate the peace process and kill off physical force republicanism. Which it did to a large degree.

I'm very eager to read the new evidence.

Im well used to the misconstrued labeling on this forum. Im assuming the new evidence continues on where nuala oloan left off. she got so far but then the RUC tied it all up in red tape and went to court to make sure no more was said about it.

In my time of growing up in Omagh, the bus depot was always the place people were sent during a bombscare. Open ground with no large buildings surrounding it. Bombscares were a regular occurance.

Dr Galen · 11-05-2012 12:00pm

Really?

You seem to be taking that news report and the possible details contained in the yet to be published document and running off in CT land with it. The families involved aren't saying anything like what you are coming up with.

From report the news around this, it looks like the new document contains evidence that the police were running an operation relating to those who planted the bomb and it spectacularly and tragically failed. If I was a family member affected, I'd be pretty pissed at this too, and want answers as to why it was allowed to happen.

Fenian Army · 11-05-2012 12:04pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

Really?

You seem to be taking that news report and the possible details contained in the yet to be published document and running off in CT land with it. The families involved aren't saying anything like what you are coming up with.

From report the news around this, it looks like the new document contains evidence that the police were running an operation relating to those who planted the bomb and it spectacularly and tragically failed. If I was a family member affected, I'd be pretty pissed at this too, and want answers as to why it was allowed to happen.

Perhaps the failure, being so spectacular was deliberate... explains why the RUC wouldn't cooperate with the ombudsman.

We will see anyway.

whitelines · 11-05-2012 12:13pm

maccored wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/1695813.stm

You obviously class the police ombudsman as insane as well then I assume.

I don't have much time for that woman, but even if I did, she certainly wasn't making your allegation.

Dr Galen · 11-05-2012 12:24pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

Perhaps the failure, being so spectacular was deliberate... explains why the RUC wouldn't cooperate with the ombudsman.

We will see anyway.

While I'd think it unlikely, it could be possible. Also very possible, and I'd suggest a lot more probable, is that it was a botched job, they dropped the ball and of course wouldn't want anyone getting too close to that truth, so did their best to prevent the ombudsman investigating properly.

maccored · 11-05-2012 12:35pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

Really?

You seem to be taking that news report and the possible details contained in the yet to be published document and running off in CT land with it. The families involved aren't saying anything like what you are coming up with.

Yes 'really'.

I do apologise for having an opinion of my own mind you. Running off to 'CT' land with it? Thats just absolute tosh.

Dr Galen wrote: »

Really?

From report the news around this, it looks like the new document contains evidence that the police were running an operation relating to those who planted the bomb and it spectacularly and tragically failed.

and who is arguing with you there tell me? Its HOW it "spectacularly and tragically failed" is the issue, and if the RUC could have prevented that. Blindly ignore the suspicions people - including nuala oloan have had - if it makes life any easier for you but I - as I stated - would not be surprised to find that all the dots join up whenever that report is published.

maccored · 11-05-2012 12:36pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

While I'd think it unlikely, it could be possible. Also very possible, and I'd suggest a lot more probable, is that it was a botched job, they dropped the ball and of course wouldn't want anyone getting too close to that truth, so did their best to prevent the ombudsman investigating properly.

thats just as bad as being actively involved in it.

maccored · 11-05-2012 12:38pm

whitelines wrote: »

I don't have much time for that woman, but even if I did, she certainly wasn't making your allegation.

she wasnt suggesting there may have been RUC collusion? I must read this bit again then:

It found that RUC Special Branch had been warned about a planned attack on 15 August - the day of the atrocity - but that information was not passed to police officers on the ground

Did you even read the piece?

11-05-2012 12:40pm

maccored wrote: »

thats just as bad as being actively involved in it.

It's not.

maccored wrote: »

she wasnt suggesting there may have been RUC collusion? I must read this bit again then

But hold on, if the information wasn't passed on then how did they know to send them the wrong way?

maccored · 11-05-2012 12:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Yes, it is.

But hold on, if the information wasn't passed on then how did they know to send them the wrong way?

? What are you talking about?

I stated a few facts earlier .. one of which was the bus depot was the place people would be sent to and market street a place people were sent to and where the bomb went off. Those are facts.

Suspicious about the way it went down? yes I am - but where did I state the RUC purposely sent people there?

Dr Galen · 11-05-2012 12:59pm

A badly planned or implemented police operation is not the same as doing nothing or being actively involved.

maccored · 11-05-2012 1:00pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

A badly planned or implemented police operation is not the same as doing nothing or being actively involved.

And you think it will end up simply being a botched operation? I think you'll be wrong, but we'll see.

Dr Galen · 11-05-2012 1:29pm

I suppose I just have an open mind on it tbh. A grand conspiracy to allow the bomb to go off so that police officers get to keep their danger money, or to help kick the peace process along just seem a bit far fetched to me.

That doesn't mean that I think anyone implicated shouldn't be investigated. If it can be proven that members of the security forces were negligent in their duties and/or deliberately covered that up, then I'd want the book thrown at them very hard indeed.

thecommietommy · 11-05-2012 1:38pm

I salute the Omagh relatives for their courage and tenacity. Let's not forget who was actually found guilty in court - Michael McKevitt and Liam Campbell. :mad:

Nodin · 11-05-2012 1:44pm

maccored wrote: »

................

I want to hear what this evidence is, but it wont be presented until June. Would it surprise me to hear the RUC helped the realIRA just to ensure they kept their lucratively highly paid ('danger money') jobs? Not in the slightest.

It would suprise me, certainly.

maccored · 11-05-2012 1:47pm

Nodin wrote: »

It would suprise me, certainly.

as mentioned - we'll see whenever the report comes out.

Dr Galen · 11-05-2012 1:51pm

maccored wrote: »

as mentioned - we'll see whenever the report comes out.

why start the thread, and give your opinions if only a few posts later you are backing off and don't appear willing to further engage?

maccored · 11-05-2012 1:56pm

because I havent been given any opinions other than a) im mad, b) im some kind of dranged idiot or c) the RUC had nothing to do with it - regardless of the information that apparently wasnt passed forward (the argument goes no further than 'the RUC didnt do it!'). **** it - may as well just wait til the report comes out if thats the kind of debate there is.

personally I think the whole thing is highly, highly suspicious.

K-9 · 11-05-2012 2:59pm

maccored wrote: »

because I havent been given any opinions other than a) im mad, b) im some kind of dranged idiot or c) the RUC had nothing to do with it - regardless of the information that apparently wasnt passed forward (the argument goes no further than 'the RUC didnt do it!'). **** it - may as well just wait til the report comes out if thats the kind of debate there is.

personally I think the whole thing is highly, highly suspicious.

It seems likely Special Branch had some operation going on the RIRA and for that reason never told the police officers on the ground.

As for some type of black operation or collusion, I don't see much to go on.

In my time of growing up in Omagh, the bus depot was always the place people were sent during a bombscare. Open ground with no large buildings surrounding it. Bombscares were a regular occurance

If that is the case I'm sure the reasons will come out as to why they changed. The warning was wrong after all and that shouldn't be forgotten, the police can only act on information they have.

Dubhlinner · 11-05-2012 3:13pm

I'd imagine there is some good reason for not using the bus depot. If there was a black op going on (and I wouldn't rule that out) there's no way the RUC officers directing the crowds would know about it.

RATM · 11-05-2012 4:22pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

I suppose I just have an open mind on it tbh. A grand conspiracy to allow the bomb to go off so that police officers get to keep their danger money, or to help kick the peace process along just seem a bit far fetched to me.

It does sound far fetched but not completely out of the realms of possibility. Secret Services are well known for their false flag operations so they can justify bigger funding from their political paymasters.

Phoenix magazine has been reporting for years of the tricks MI6 have been up to which helped prolong the Troubles. They had Denis Donaldson in their pocket as an informant for over 20 years yet they let bombing operations and killings go ahead despite their advance knowledge of what was going down.

At all times throughout the Troubles MI6 (through Donaldson) would have had detailed knowledge of who was on the IRA Army Council and when and where they meet. At any given time they could have decided to act and wipe out the IRA leadership in one fowl swoop.

Yet instead of using Donaldson to stop the war (or at least try) they used him to prolong it. Spooks love playing games of cat and mouse, its the raison d'etre that they wanted a career as a spy. They have little incentive to bring about the end of a war and this proved to be the case with the Troubles, it was political will and the demands of the public post-Omagh that brought about change, not by anything MI6 or the RUC did.

I'll reserve judgement on the Omagh bombing for now but there are questions that need answering that's for sure. It does seem like a conspiracy theory to say that the RUC let Omagh happen but it is not beyond the realms of possibility IMO.

K-9 · 11-05-2012 4:39pm

RATM wrote: »

It does sound far fetched but not completely out of the realms of possibility. Secret Services are well known for their false flag operations so they can justify bigger funding from their political paymasters.

Phoenix magazine has been reporting for years of the tricks MI6 have been up to which helped prolong the Troubles. They had Denis Donaldson in their pocket as an informant for over 20 years yet they let bombing operations and killings go ahead despite their advance knowledge of what was going down.

At all times throughout the Troubles MI6 (through Donaldson) would have had detailed knowledge of who was on the IRA Army Council and when and where they meet. At any given time they could have decided to act and wipe out the IRA leadership in one fowl swoop.

Yet instead of using Donaldson to stop the war (or at least try) they used him to prolong it. Spooks love playing games of cat and mouse, its the raison d'etre that they wanted a career as a spy. They have little incentive to bring about the end of a war and this proved to be the case with the Troubles, it was political will and the demands of the public post-Omagh that brought about change, not by anything MI6 or the RUC did.

I'll reserve judgement on the Omagh bombing for now but there are questions that need answering that's for sure. It does seem like a conspiracy theory to say that the RUC let Omagh happen but it is not beyond the realms of possibility IMO.

They probably knew wiping out the Army Council would be a bit self defeating. Plus if they had the inside track they'd have known the IRA was slowly moving towards a cessation etc.

That's the thing with Conspiracies too, you can claim they wanted to prolong the war while another poster can say they did nothing in Omagh, so as to do damage to dissidents and lessen their impact!

11-05-2012 4:42pm

maccored wrote: »

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Yes, it is.

Oh well then I'm convinced.

? What are you talking about?

I stated a few facts earlier .. one of which was the bus depot was the place people would be sent to and market street a place people were sent to and where the bomb went off. Those are facts.

Suspicious about the way it went down? yes I am - but where did I state the RUC purposely sent people there?

If the cops purposely sent people towards a bomb then someone had to know about it. Did the branch take command of the police that day or tell some people do break with procedure. If the information stopped at the special branch then they had no control over the police operation.

HamletOrHecuba · 11-05-2012 4:43pm

RATM wrote: »

I'll reserve judgement on the Omagh bombing for now but there are questions that need answering that's for sure. It does seem like a conspiracy theory to say that the RUC let Omagh happen but it is not beyond the realms of possibility IMO.

Before Omagh happened both the RIRA and the 32 csm were growing in support and membership- with the Omagh atrocity this evaporated and still to do this day it is a massive block to the spread of Anti-GFA Republicanism. Whether the UK state actually played a role in it is debatable but they (and the people of Ulster at large also it could be argued) have benefited from it.

The British forces took out the leadership of the INLA/IRSP over the 70s, certainly there is every reason to believe that they could have done the same with the Provos, however given that the Provos (as their acceptance of the GFA can leave us in no doubt) were motivated by sectarianism more than politics they were and are seen as useful to the "managing" of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

fasttalkerchat · 12-05-2012 5:50am

In my opinion the 3 most probable cases are in this order:
1) The police/brits let it happen to damage dissident republicans.
2) The brits made it happen to damage dissident republicans.
3) It was all just a big accident and no one let it happen.

thecommietommy · 12-05-2012 12:47pm

K-9 wrote: »

It seems likely Special Branch had some operation going on the RIRA and for that reason never told the police officers on the ground.

As for some type of black operation or collusion, I don't see much to go on.

If that is the case I'm sure the reasons will come out as to why they changed. The warning was wrong after all and that shouldn't be forgotten, the police can only act on information they have.

RUC Special Branch not up to some type of black ops which included paramilitary's killing innocent people :eek: ?? It's like saying the Catholic church wouldn't cover up paedophiles in it's ranks :mad:

mistermouse · 13-05-2012 4:06am

Knowing Omagh well and the street layout, I thought at the time it was strange that people were not directed out side streets to the like of the Bus Station - really wondered at the time how that was not obvious.

Unless they were confident it was a hoax, it was very poor management, at best they must have thought it was small or they could defuse, not withstanding the incorrect warnings

It certainly could be thought that they planned to discredit the RIRA, but, I doubt if they would have taken a chance with so many lives.

The RUC etc were well experienced in these situations, so its hard to know

Dubhlinner · 13-05-2012 5:01pm

mistermouse wrote: »

Knowing Omagh well and the street layout, I thought at the time it was strange that people were not directed out side streets to the like of the Bus Station - really wondered at the time how that was not obvious.

Unless they were confident it was a hoax, it was very poor management, at best they must have thought it was small or they could defuse, not withstanding the incorrect warnings

It certainly could be thought that they planned to discredit the RIRA, but, I doubt if they would have taken a chance with so many lives.

The RUC etc were well experienced in these situations, so its hard to know

When dealing with such a short timeframe they just wanted people out of the way of the bombsite wherever that may be. Unfortunately they were given mixed up information and inadvertantly sent a lot of people toward the bomb

gurramok · 13-05-2012 9:44pm

To add, at the time for those of us who are old enough, the bombing of Omagh was the last RIRA major bombing of a town in the North. Previously they had bombed countless towns with success(and gladly no casualties), Moira, Portadown, Banbridge, Newry etc.

Just seems something is amiss that since Omagh nothing major of this scale has happened. Perhaps the crackdown worked after Omagh or was there something more sinister? We don't know until the relatives of the Omagh bombing(both Unionist and Nationalist) find out the truth.

fryup · 16-05-2012 9:00am

thecommietommy wrote: »

I salute the Omagh relatives for their courage and tenacity. Let's not forget who was actually found guilty in court - Michael McKevitt and Liam Campbell. :mad:

and lets not forget that his brother was caught not so long ago buying exposives in lithunia, so they're still very much a threat

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1021/lithuania.html

getzls · 19-05-2012 8:51pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

In my opinion the 3 most probable cases are in this order:
1) The police/brits let it happen to damage dissident republicans.
2) The brits made it happen to damage dissident republicans.
3) It was all just a big accident and no one let it happen.

Or the R.I.R.A. just did it for the sake of blood lust.:cool:

lividduck · 19-05-2012 11:03pm

Fenian Army wrote: »

I say it will be about another ten minutes before you are accused of being a RIRA supporter trying to absolve them of blame.

Thats what generally happens when you deviate from the "accepted" media version of the "truth" for whatever reason.

I've had suspicions about it in particular the fact that they were not sent to the depot. People forget that bomb scares were not exactly uncommon.

However rather than for the "danger money" I'd suggest it may have been allowed happen to accelerate the peace process and kill off physical force republicanism. Which it did to a large degree.

I'm very eager to read the new evidence.

RIRA scum aided by the CIRa calculatedly and coldly carried out mass murder in direct opposition to the wishes of all the the people of this Island, they are scum, dirt, and to try to pass the blame is nothing less than absolute cowardice, but what would you expect from these pieces of s***e

round tower huntsman · 19-05-2012 11:13pm

imo the ira unit that carried out the bombing was compromised. the brits,mi5,knew exactly where the bomb was going and where it was parked. they did nothing to stop it. maxium civilian deaths was what they wanted, nothing hurt irish seperatists more then civilian deaths. omagh was the bomb to end all bombs,it hurt militant seperatism severally,still hurts it today i'd say. mi5 at the very least,knew and did nothing hoping for civilian bloodbath to curtail recuitment to rira and to allow psf to continue their partitionist agreement path.

lividduck · 19-05-2012 11:19pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

imo the ira unit that carried out the bombing was compromised. the brits,mi5,knew exactly where the bomb was going and where it was parked. they did nothing to stop it. maxium civilian deaths was what they wanted, nothing hurt irish seperatists then civilian deaths. omagh was the bomb to end all bombs,it hurt militant seperatism severally,still hurts it i'd say. mi5 at the very least,knew and did nothing hoping for civilian bloodbath to curtail recuitment to rira and to allow psf to continue their partitionist agreement path.

More lies from an apoligist for the lowlife scum who chose of their own free will to murder, in cold blood, as many innocents as they could because they wouldn't accept the will of the Irish people, freely expressed by ballot.
These scum are, were, and will always be in it for the money, the criminality, the rush of power.
They should and must be isolated and silenced by any and all means necessary for the protection of society!

round tower huntsman · 19-05-2012 11:21pm

go to bed and take it easy on the dan bars kid, they're making you hyper. its a politcal forum,no room for rants and tantrums. night night.

round tower huntsman · 19-05-2012 11:24pm

the omagh families has also raised such points,are they rira apologists??

lividduck · 19-05-2012 11:39pm

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the omagh families has also raised such points,are they rira apologists??

Who planted the bomb? Who built the bomb? Who transported the bomb? RIRA/CIRA scum thats who!

round tower huntsman · 19-05-2012 11:45pm

lividduck wrote: »

Who planted the bomb? Who built the bomb? Who transported the bomb? RIRA/CIRA scum thats who!

who knew where it was made?,who knew where it was going? who knew where it was parked? who knew exactly where the maxium deaths would happen? who would benifit most from a civilian bllodbath? british military intel thats who!

no republican group has ever,in 800 yrs os struggle set out to kill civilians like that. it did more harm to militant seperatism then anything else.

Police accused over Omagh Bomb

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