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Modern Double Decker Trams

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  • 11-04-2009 1:55pm
    #1
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭


    Well what do you know, they do exsist in Alexandria and Hong Kong!

    Alex-Tram06.jpg

    654877060_3799c92ae1.jpg?v=0

    If they ever get around to building the Luas BX line, double decker trams might be less obstructive at all the narrow road juctions on the route?

    I said "if"...:o

    ok, i'll get me coat.


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    #2
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Very interesting pics. I assumed that the only double deck trams were the old ones at Blackpool and Hong Kong. :)


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    #3
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    This country would probably insist on having them with only one door.


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    #4
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    would the luas wires be too low for DD trams? can't imagine it being an issue with DD buses passing under them all day.


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    #5
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Are the wires the same height above the tracks the entire way? The pantographs are spring-loaded so can rise up with any increases in wire height if they aren't - there is clearly enough clearance at all road junctions for double deckers anyway!


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    #6
    triple-M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭triple-M


    dd trams would be great they were around during the united tramways days


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    #7
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    They couldn't be used in Dublin because there are sections of line with very little clearance (especially the remodelled Red Cow Interchange) where the overhead wire is actually a solid bar which forces the pantograph almost all the way down. I think Balleely is the same setup as it passes under that office block.


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    #8
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    murphaph wrote: »
    They couldn't be used in Dublin because there are sections of line with very little clearance (especially the remodelled Red Cow Interchange) where the overhead wire is actually a solid bar which forces the pantograph almost all the way down. I think Balleely is the same setup as it passes under that office block.

    What about just on the BX line in order to deal with traffic junction conflicts? Seems to me that a 40/43 meter trams on that line will be overkill and 3 or 4 of them on this section at the one time will cause a lot of road blockage in the city centre.

    Double deckers trams operating from the Green on the Bx route and back would not have the same impact on road traffic as they would get out of the way sooner. This is why they still use double decker trams in Hong Kong apparently. You can see just how little linear impact they have at road junctions in this photo.

    tram1.jpg

    The maximun capacity of each tramcar is 115 people.


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    #9
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,833 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Nostradamus wrote: »
    The maximun capacity of each tramcar is 115 people.

    As opposed to 358 on a 40M Luas and something a lot larger than that on the new trams which are going to enter service in a bit...


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    #10
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    MYOB wrote: »
    As opposed to 358 on a 40M Luas and something a lot larger than that on the new trams which are going to enter service in a bit...

    Yeah, there are so few lines in Dublin that higher capacity trams are needed. With a more fragmented route map it would make sense to send out trams with smaller capacity as they will inevitably empty before reaching the terminus. Luas is operating close to capacity on the Green line during rush hour along all sections of all 3 zones.


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    #11
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    115 people is too small. We know any new rail infrastructure in Dublin gets mobbed from the off. There are also clearly accessibility issues with the HK trams that we'd have to overcome for them to be legal here. My preference is of course to look at it the other way and to start 'encouraging' private cars out of the city centre. To my mind any 'anti-car' measure inside the outer orbital (purple one) is fair game even at the moment.

    Edit: It should also be remembered that HK natives are physically smaller on average than us. I remember talking to a bus body fabricator and he told me of buses bought from HK for use in the UK which had to have seats removed/replaced as in HK you could get 3+2 seating where we'd only get away with 2+2 as we need that bit more room so I'd say the 115 HK people is equivalent to fewer europeans.


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    #12
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    MYOB wrote: »
    Are the wires the same height above the tracks the entire way? The pantographs are spring-loaded so can rise up with any increases in wire height if they aren't - there is clearly enough clearance at all road junctions for double deckers anyway!
    They could get around this problem very easily, DB will have about 150 excess double Decker busses lying idle after the cut backs, flog them to Luas and adapt the wheels to run them on the luas rails. :D


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    #13
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    Yes, I guess the capacity is too small on DD trams unless they use lots of them in high-fq services, but even so. Still, 40/43 M trams are going to be very obstructive as soon as the cross over onto the northside Bx section. Maybe they'll go back to 30M trams or predestrianise the entire area who knows.

    Sill amazed that modern DD trams are being built and in service. Something about them seem "right" for Dublin city centre.


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    #14
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Show some ambition guys. 40m articulated deckers is what we want for Dublin.


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    #15
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Nostradamus wrote: »
    would the luas wires be too low for DD trams? can't imagine it being an issue with DD buses passing under them all day.
    The wires on Luas are designed with someone standing on the seat of an open-top double-deck bus holding up an umbrella in mind.

    After that. ... ZAPPPP!


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    #16
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    No fecking chance. After all we seem to be blowing the chance to virtually double capacity on the Northern-Interconnector-Kildare line by not ensuring clearance for using bilevel carriages... but anyway...

    That said, I guess a Heuston-Point shuttle could work... I wonder if Alstom could be persuaded to produce doubledeck internal modules while retaining the existing driving module. It would be like a Citadis Beluga :)

    The upside of this would be that a 30m tram could have the capacity approaching a 43m tram, which would ease parking congestion at tram yards.


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    #17
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    murphaph wrote: »
    115 people is too small. We know any new rail infrastructure in Dublin gets mobbed from the off. There are also clearly accessibility issues with the HK trams that we'd have to overcome for them to be legal here. My preference is of course to look at it the other way and to start 'encouraging' private cars out of the city centre. To my mind any 'anti-car' measure inside the outer orbital (purple one) is fair game even at the moment.

    Edit: It should also be remembered that HK natives are physically smaller on average than us. I remember talking to a bus body fabricator and he told me of buses bought from HK for use in the UK which had to have seats removed/replaced as in HK you could get 3+2 seating where we'd only get away with 2+2 as we need that bit more room so I'd say the 115 HK people is equivalent to fewer europeans.

    I am guessing that these HK trams are the result of evolution rather than something planned. It's worth noting that the HK tram system started 10 years after the Dublin system which also used double deck trams. It's quite possible that the track architecture does not allow for the long single deck trams that now operate in Dublin and other cities. If we hadn't dug up our old tram network, it's quite possible there might be a few of these knocking around Dublin?
    Also I note that the underground system in HK is a direct competitor to the tram line which probably reduced the appetite to develop the tram system thereby allowing more efficient trams to run.


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    #18
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Victor wrote: »
    The wires on Luas are designed with someone standing on the seat of an open-top double-deck bus holding up an umbrella in mind.

    After that. ... ZAPPPP!

    I'd risk that, 750Vdc with no ground connection other than 4 rubber tyres.... on a dry day of course....


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    #19
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,281 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I'd risk that, 750Vdc with no ground connection other than 4 rubber tyres.... on a dry day of course....
    So is that a metal bus roof you are holding onto to steady yourself and that rainy day when you brought your umbrella. ?)


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