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Dublin Bus / Leap - Child vs School Child fares

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    #32
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    When I said you were in a unique situation, I stand by that. There is no other area on the Dublin Bus network that is exclusively served by an Xpresso route other than the Southern Cross in Bray (which is where I'm guessing you are).

    That's not correct. 66X serves the Easton part of Leixlip, which is not served by any other bus route. This stop is a 20 minute walk from the nearest bus stop served by the regular 66.

    In Celbridge the 67X serves the Old Town Rd. and a large area up the back of the town not served by the 67.


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    #33
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Once again, there is NO Xpresso schoolchild fare. There are child fares however.

    I shouldn't have used the word School in my first sentence, but the existence or not of schoolchild fares was not the point of my post.

    My point is you have to do different things on different buses otherwise the system will overcharge you.


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    #34
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    That's not correct. 66X serves the Easton part of Leixlip, which is not served by any other bus route. This stop is a 20 minute walk from the nearest bus stop served by the regular 66.

    In Celbridge the 67X serves the Old Town Rd. and a large area up the back of the town not served by the 67.

    I stand corrected - however these were very much the exceptions to the rule and are mostly recent changes. The 67x was a response to Morton's ceasing for example.

    When Cityspeed routes (and later Xpresso) were established first they virtually all paralleled existing bus routes. They were never intended to be for schoolchildren and as a result there was a huge disparity in the child fares charged viz. the normal schoolchild fare.


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    #35
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I shouldn't have used the word School in my first sentence, but the existence or not of schoolchild fares was not the point of my post.

    My point is you have to do different things on different buses otherwise the system will overcharge you.

    Well the Xpresso services are a different beast to a normal service with premium fares so yes I'd expect them to be different. The difference is not having a schoolchild fare. There are two child fares, with the higher being charged on the validator, which is the same as normal buses outside the schoolchild fare operating hours.


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    #36
    bdo
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭bdo


    n97 mini wrote: »
    So the Xpress School Child fare is €1.15 and you have to go to the driver for that? That's news. We thought it was €2.

    All the while the regular bus School Child fare is 70c and you have to get that from the validator as the driver will likely charge you €1.15.

    This is a brilliant system :rolleyes:

    I share your pain, N97 - but that appears to be how it is.

    In summary, if a child is travelling on an Xpresso service - and only travelling within 1 zone - then they should go to the driver and say they want a €1.15 fare, 1 zone only. If they use the remote validator, they will be charged €2 on the Leapcard - and only €1.15 of this will apply to the cap.

    We have not being doing that - and that is why the cap kept failing.


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    #37
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well hopefully now you will see the cap implementing. Let us know how you get on!


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    #38
    bdo
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭bdo


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I can assure you that when the Cityspeed Express services were launched at the start of the 1990s that they most definitely were designed to discourage schoolchildren from using them and provide an express service that prioritised getting people to/from work. They never accepted schoolchild fares, and the Xpresso services still don't. They charged premium child fares that were significantly higher than the schoolchild fare (a much higher differential than today, which seems like another anomaly).

    Nor was I wasn't suggesting that you and your daughter were doing anything wrong in using the Child Rambler, just observing that in allowing it to be used on the Xpresso routes, Dublin Bus were making their own objective (prioritising people going to/from work) a bit more difficult to adhere to.

    When I said you were in a unique situation, I stand by that. There is no other area on the Dublin Bus network that is exclusively served by an Xpresso route other than the Southern Cross in Bray (which is where I'm guessing you are). Every other area served by an Xpresso service has a normal bus route as well that schoolchildren can use.

    Turning to the specific problem that you have. In this circumstance the cap can and will work. I frequently use the LEAP epurse and have never yet encountered being overcharged. I always tell the driver the fare I want, rather than specifying my destination, thus eliminating the possibility of an error.

    The solution to this is:
    1) When your daughter is boarding the 84X get her to go to the driver and say €1.15, rather than her destination.

    2) When she boards the 46a get her to use the righthand validator

    That way she should always hit the €8.20 cap and not be overcharged. Make sure that she watches the ticket machine display and that if she is charges €2 by the driver in error (although why any driver would do that when asked for a specific fare I'm not sure), that she asks him to annul it and re-issue a €1.15 fare.

    That way she should always be within the cap of €8.20.

    I agree with your solution LXFlyer (with the caveat below); that is how I will be approaching it.

    The caveat is a moral and legal one - why do/did Dublin Bus think they can discriminate against children by prioritising adults on Xpresso buses?

    Dublin Bus is discriminating if it provides an express service that prioritises getting adults only from A to B faster. It has to provide a service that gets "people" (including children) from A to B faster - provided both adults and children pay proportionately for the priviliege.

    Since Leapcard, they have now designed a system that discriminates against children taking Xpresso buses by charging disproportionately more - €2.00 vs €0.70 - because the full €2 does not count towards the cap.


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    #39
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    bdo wrote: »
    I agree with your solution LXFlyer (with the caveat below); that is how I will be approaching it.

    The caveat is a moral and legal one - why do/did Dublin Bus think they can discriminate against children by prioritising adults on Xpresso buses?

    Dublin Bus is discriminating if it provides an express service that prioritises getting adults only from A to B faster. It has to provide a service that gets "people" (including children) from A to B faster - provided both adults and children pay proportionately for the priviliege.

    Since Leapcard, they have now designed a system that discriminates against children taking Xpresso buses by charging disproportionately more - €2.00 vs €0.70 - because the full €2 does not count towards the cap.


    I'm not sure how you reckon children are being discriminated against?

    First of all the schoolchild fare is irrelevant as it was never available on those routes. The relevant child fares are €1.15 and €2, with only €1.15 going towards the cap.

    Adult fares suffer a similar issue. Adult Xpresso fares are €2.50 and €3.50 with only €2.50 counting towards the cap.

    At the end of the day, these are premium services and charge higher fares accordingly.

    Perhaps you should be lobbying for a normal bus route to operate past you?

    I would think most people would argue that time is far more of an issue for people commuting to/from work than it is for children travelling to/from school? That's why these routes and a network of school services were developed in the first place in many areas around the city.


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    #40
    bdo
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭bdo


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Adult fares suffer a similar issue. Adult Xpresso fares are €2.50 and €3.50 with only €2.50 counting towards the cap.

    Well thanks again for the information; I did not know that adults suffered a similar fate - I thought the restricted capping was only to the child fares - and therefore children are not being discriminated against.

    I'll let you know how we get on - and I'll see if I can get some money refunded to my Leapcard for the "overpayments" to date!


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    #41
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    My daughter got all the overpayments on her adult and child cards refunded, but it involves a physical trip into the DB offices on O'Connell St.


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    #42
    bdo
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭bdo


    Just FYI, after a week or two, we are now benefitting from the cap, after making the kids get on and off the buses as described.


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    #43
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,542 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just to highlight that from 1 December there will be only one child LEAP fare (€1.20) on the 84x (and indeed all Xpresso routes) - this will mean that your daughter can use the righthand validator on all buses from that date and the entire fare will contribute towards the cap. Note that the cap will remain the same at €8.20.


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