Why does the Leap card exist?

n97 mini · 24-10-2013 12:04am #1

For operators (bus in particular) it means:
- extra outlay on equipment
- drivers must remember two fare structures
- increased dwell time (slower than coins)
- does not eliminate the need to handle cash
- other prepaid tickets are cheaper (T90)
- reduced fares = reduced revenue

For customers it means
- still no integrated ticketing
- limited top-up locations
- need to remember to tag off exiting rail/LUAS
- ever increasing fares
- confusing tag-on/tag-ff balance displays

For taxpayer
- outlay on backend and infrastructure
- maintenance

I'm struggling to see any advantage to Leap as a whole, right now. I don't believe in vapourware, so what might or might not happen in the future isn't here right now.

The only argument in its favour is that you can get slightly cheaper fares vs cash, but it's probable that fares overall would be lower if we weren't carrying the cost of Leap.

Cookie_Monster · 24-10-2013 12:20am

It's the usual half assed implementation that everything in Ireland suffers from thats the problem rather than the card itself. A fully functioning card that covers everything should have been available from day 1 across the board, none of this faffing around, taking years to add additional features.

It's been in use for nearly two years now, with a further 10 years+ of development and is still a hamfisted mess, how long is it going to take?

Riskymove · 24-10-2013 10:57am

n97 mini wrote: »

For customers it means
- still no integrated ticketing
- limited top-up locations
- need to remember to tag off exiting rail/LUAS
- ever increasing fares
- confusing tag-on/tag-ff balance displays

I currently use a Leap and am not sure I agree with all of these points

you can top up at every train station and every LUAS station and also in many shops

you have to tag-off at most train stations to get out anyway and any smartcard requires you to tag on and off LUAS

fares increase generally so whatever you use that is an issue...only an annual ticket will avoid them for a while

I have not found the displays confusing

the annual ticket is the best option imo and I'll be going back to it next year

Stevek101 · 24-10-2013 11:07am

n97 mini wrote: »

For customers it means
- still no integrated ticketing
- limited top-up locations
- need to remember to tag off exiting rail/LUAS
- ever increasing fares
- confusing tag-on/tag-ff balance displays

- As part of the fare determinations multi operator caps have to be introduced by 1st of Jan or fares revert to 2013 levels

- Auto top-up is launching soon

- Normal practice

- Fares are going up less on Leap then with cash so savings are made

- Hardly confusing if you bothered to look at the explanation (plus it is the same everywhere)

cgcsb · 24-10-2013 11:16am

I disagree with some of your points

-limited top up locations

there are plenty in my experience, virtually every convenience shop in the city that has payzone.

But you are correct, we can't have integrated ticket at present because each operator has different fare structures, there are Irish rail zones, bus Éireann zones, luas zones and Dublin Bus stages. even though leap promises to have transfer rebates, you'll still be charged twice for the same journey.

What needs to happen is the minister needs to inform the CIE companies that from a particular date a new zonal system will come to use and all operators will use that.

The additional features of leap that are added on an ad hock basis are supposed to bring us closer to integrated ticketing, but there is no reason other than incompetence as to why it can't simply be brought in overnight(a night 30 years ago when the rest of the western world introduced such systems)

LXFlyer · 24-10-2013 11:21am

As with any phased project - you're not going to see the full benefits until it is fully rolled out. Judging it at a particular point when the full benefits (such as multi-operator capping) have yet to appear is a bit daft.

But I'd imagine an awful lot more people (i.e. those still paying by cash) will switch now given the difference in the % change in the fare increases between LEAP and cash.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's the usual half assed implementation that everything in Ireland suffers from thats the problem rather than the card itself. A fully functioning card that covers everything should have been available from day 1 across the board, none of this faffing around, taking years to add additional features.

It's been in use for nearly two years now, with a further 10 years+ of development and is still a hamfisted mess, how long is it going to take?

Given the complexities involved I'm not sure a "big bang" would be wise? Far better to do it in phases and solve the problems that inevitably will arise, rather than having complete chaos.

The system was not in development for 10 years + as you suggest - politicians, civil and public servants were arguing over how to do it for that time.

As I recall the back office tender was awarded in 2009, about 18 months before the system went live.

Dravokivich · 24-10-2013 11:41am

n97 mini wrote: »

For operators (bus in particular) it means:
- extra outlay on equipment
- drivers must remember two fare structures
- increased dwell time (slower than coins)
- does not eliminate the need to handle cash
- other prepaid tickets are cheaper (T90)
- reduced fares = reduced revenue

There's been no change of hardware. It's the same equipment. The drivers don't have to remember 2 fare structures either. The Stages are the same with/without Leapcard. The ticket machine presents the applicable fare.

n97 mini wrote: »

For customers it means
- still no integrated ticketing
- limited top-up locations
- need to remember to tag off exiting rail/LUAS
- ever increasing fares
- confusing tag-on/tag-ff balance displays

You are judging it, based on what it currently isn't. Leapcard has never said it is, more than what it is doing right now. There have been bits of information passed out sparingly regarding what's coming down the line, such as Taxsaver and BÉ tickets. There is no difference for usage on Irish Rail or on Luas, when comparing the smartcards they previously had in place. Heck, their own taxsavers are meant to be Tag On/Off too. The issue with fares is a different department of the NTA. All Leapcard is, is a method of paying them or carrying tickets. And the Tag On/Off displays aren't confusing, you've the initial charge at Tag On and the credit due to be returned at Tag Off, along with the current balance of the leapcard.

n97 mini wrote: »

For taxpayer
- outlay on backend and infrastructure
- maintenance

There is no change in maintenance as the operators are meant to retain responsiblity for their own hardware. If a validator isn't working, it would affect their own products that use it. Which is something that irked me with Irish Rail whenever I saw an offline validator and someone at the station just shouted called Leapcard, didn't talk too much when I asked them what someone was to do with an Irish Rail Smartcard.

n97 mini wrote: »

I'm struggling to see any advantage to Leap as a whole, right now. I don't believe in vapourware, so what might or might not happen in the future isn't here right now.

The only argument in its favour is that you can get slightly cheaper fares vs cash, but it's probable that fares overall would be lower if we weren't carrying the cost of Leap.

The reason why you are struggling, is because you seem to be concentrating on finding flaws, where none seem to exist and pin'em on Leapcard. It's only a medium. Any issues will lay elsewhere.

ballooba · 24-10-2013 11:50am

Don't blame Leap for Dublin Bus implementation of it. Have a look at other systems in other parts of the world.

paulieb · 24-10-2013 12:11pm

ballooba wrote: »

Don't blame Leap for Dublin Bus implementation of it. Have a look at other systems in other parts of the world.

Dont blame dublin bus for the leap card.
NTA is the one who spent 50,000,000 on ticket machines that are not fit for purpose, underpowered with out dated technology.

who was responsible for wasting millions and choosing these machines, are they still in a position of power, if so why? its a complete mess, they should be held accountable for this debacle.

The tickets machines on dublin buses are not up to the job as a simple epurse, now extra tickets are been loaded on the leap card, this wont end well.

Stevek101 · 24-10-2013 12:15pm

paulieb wrote: »

Dont blame dublin bus for the leap card.
NTA is the one who spent 50,000,000 on ticket machines that are not fit for purpose, underpowered with out dated technology.

who was responsible for wasting millions and choosing these machines, are they still in a position of power, if so why? its a complete mess, they should be held accountable for this debacle.

The tickets machines on dublin buses are not up to the job as a simple epurse, now extra tickets are been loaded on the leap card, this wont end well.

In fairness I doubt they spend anywhere near that much and as well as that those ticket machines were the one's to get at the time. They were pretty much the standard and have been in DB buses for quite some time now. If Dublin Bus weren't bleeding cash due to an extremely elongated cost cutting programme maybe they'd be in better shape to purchase more "up to date" machines.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2013 12:19pm

paulieb wrote: »

Dont blame dublin bus for the leap card.
NTA is the one who spent 50,000,000 on ticket machines that are not fit for purpose, underpowered with out dated technology.

who was responsible for wasting millions and choosing these machines, are they still in a position of power, if so why? its a complete mess, they should be held accountable for this debacle.

The tickets machines on dublin buses are not up to the job as a simple epurse, now extra tickets are been loaded on the leap card, this wont end well.

The machines that Dublin Bus have were purchased by Dublin Bus, and at the time they would have been, as stevek101 says, pretty much the industry standard.

There will undoubtedly have to be an upgrade, but the planned fare structure simplification for Dublin Bus may alleviate some of the memory problems that the machines face.

SandyfordGuy · 24-10-2013 12:19pm

The machines are based on 20 year old pc technology dublin bus bought them around the same time a new model hit the market.

they have one meg of ram that is it.

the 200 series is a far more modern machine

they were standard when dublin bus got them but were designed before smart cardc took off which is why the company who made them launched a newer model

goingnowhere · 24-10-2013 12:31pm

NTA did not pay for the ticket machines, DB paid about 5 million for the fit out of 1000 odd TGX150 to replace the life expired wayerfarer units. They were the best on the market at the time

paulieb · 24-10-2013 12:46pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

NTA did not pay for the ticket machines, DB paid about 5 million for the fit out of 1000 odd TGX150 to replace the life expired wayerfarer units. They were the best on the market at the time

So the ticket machines on a dublin bus cost €5,000 each.
Well put me in touch with whoever bought them as i have a bridge i want to sell to them.

devnull · 24-10-2013 12:57pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

NTA did not pay for the ticket machines, DB paid about 5 million for the fit out of 1000 odd TGX150 to replace the life expired wayerfarer units. They were the best on the market at the time

When did they get the machines? the TGX200 were on the market about 2005/2006 or thereabouts?

bk · 24-10-2013 1:03pm

The problems with Leap is similar to many failed government projects I've seen.

With many government projects there are underlying problems with the existing process, but rather then directly tackle the underlying issues, they try and add technology to the process, thinking it will fix the underlying issues, while in reality it usually makes them worse.

In the case of Leap, there are a number of underlying issues that needed to be solved first:
- Ridiculously complicated and confusing stage fare system on Dublin Bus.
- Single door use on Dublin Bus and thus high dwell times.
- Little in the way of integrated ticketing.

These issues needed to be sorted before they even started thinking about Leap.

They then compounded this mistake by using the ridiculously underpowered Dublin Bus ticket machines. Which simply seem to not to be up to the task.

However all is not lost, Leaps problems can be fixed by:

- Replacing the Dublin Bus ticket machines, with newer, more powerful models, which will allow for speedier handling of Leap and online top-up and application of pre-purchased tickets on Dublin Bus.

- At least moving to a tag-on/tag-off system on Dublin Bus, with no driver interaction required.

- Even better again move to a flat fare on Dublin Bus with no need for driver interaction.

- Or alternatively move to an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off charge per km system which works very well for integrated ticketing across DB, Luas, Dart, etc.

With the exception of integrated ticketing, it is notable that all the issues with Leap revolve around it's operations on Dublin Bus. Leap for the most part works pretty well on DART and LUAS, but unfortunately it works pretty badly on DB and DB is the largest public transport operator by far in Dublin.

goingnowhere · 24-10-2013 1:13pm

First in fleet would have been mid 2005. The tender would have been at least 6 months before that so it did predate the TGX200

For its time a very clever piece of equipment which can do a lot of clever things like drive the destination display

There is a whole back office depot system and systems integration cost as well to work the validator and load the DB routes/fares.

Total number of units is closer to 1200

Many private operators use the TGX150 as well

Stevek101 · 24-10-2013 1:16pm

I'd image the only viable option out of those is a a flat fare. Due to the amount of single door buses that will be on the streets for years to come. I'm surprised we didn't see greater simplication of the fare structure for 2014. The merging of two of the lesser used fares will hardly make a difference...

I also would say the current machine is obviously very capable as it is performing tasks well beyond its intended use albeit not trouble free.

missmoon99 · 24-10-2013 1:37pm

The Leap Card is brilliant!

Do you not remember the days that you would go to get the bus and only have 4EUR and have to get the change stub? Or keeping all of them, only to Never Ever redeem them?

Yes, the annual passes are cheaper, but for people that use the bus/rail/luas not on a daily basis, the leap card is far more convenient. It also make me feel more comfortable knowing I don't have to carry cash everywhere in case I need to hop on. Also, don't forget that you can top up most places by card, cash is needed for most other tickets! Or the people hanging around the ticket machine asking for all your change, or waiting in never ending queues watching the train take off as the person in front hasn't a clue how to use the bloody machine!!!

I think you're missing the point overall of introducing the leap card. It might not be up to the standards you like, but at least its a step in the right direction!

n97 mini · 24-10-2013 2:08pm

Leap struck me as half baked when it came out first, and still does.

Very simple integrated ticketing that should have been done from the word go was
- T90 type functionality on Dublin Bus, allowing you to take 2 buses to make one journey without getting screwed.
- As the Dublin surburban rail network is disjointed (i.e. Connolly-Heuston) Luas transfers should be included. i.e. I should be able to tag on in Adamstown and tag off in Clontarf Road without fear of prosecution.

For those that don't travel by rail ever, topping up requires a diversion to a shop to "collect" credit. For those that do travel by rail it's simple and quick to top up at a machine. So why even bother having the option and expense required to support online top-ups?

Stevek101 · 24-10-2013 2:26pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Leap struck me as half baked when it came out first, and still does.

Very simple integrated ticketing that should have been done from the word go was
- T90 type functionality on Dublin Bus, allowing you to take 2 buses to make one journey without getting screwed.
- As the Dublin surburban rail network is disjointed (i.e. Connolly-Heuston) Luas transfers should be included. i.e. I should be able to tag on in Adamstown and tag off in Clontarf Road without fear of prosecution.

For those that don't travel by rail ever, topping up requires a diversion to a shop to "collect" credit. For those that do travel by rail it's simple and quick to top up at a machine. So why even bother having the option and expense required to support online top-ups?

Multi operator capping by 1st Jan and on your second point you've answered the question yourself.

ballooba · 24-10-2013 2:28pm

n97 mini wrote: »

For those that don't travel by rail ever, topping up requires a diversion to a shop to "collect" credit. For those that do travel by rail it's simple and quick to top up at a machine. So why even bother having the option and expense required to support online top-ups?

You are including light rail there I assume. Personally I rarely travel by Luas, but ti is the most convenient place for me to top up.

Tazz T · 24-10-2013 3:01pm

I've been using it for about a year. Yes, it's handy, but the website is a slow mess, topping up is too tricky and there's a real problem with the fact you can be fined if you can't tag-on because of a broken machine (travelling without a ticket) and fined if you can't tag-off (pay full fare instead of partial fare).

If I'm getting fined for not travelling with a €2.40 valid ticket because of a broken machine, then I should be able to fine Irish Rail back for not giving me my €2.40 back at the end of my journey for the same reasons.

n97 mini · 24-10-2013 3:53pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

Multi operator capping by 1st Jan

Until it's here it doesn't exist.

If it's going to be a €6.40 sized cap like Leap then it doesn't solve the problem of needing to get two Dublin Bus buses to make one journey.

Dravokivich · 24-10-2013 3:56pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Until it's here it doesn't exist.

Why wasn't it there from day 1?

If everything was in from day 1 it'd be harder to manage any problems that occur from them.

Thoie · 24-10-2013 4:07pm

It's perfect for people like me, who take a train or Luas into and out of Dublin city centre only a few times a month. It sucks donkeys on buses, but I only take a bus about twice a year.

For the train/luas it's convenient and simple - I don't have to faff around with ticket machines/money. I don't have to worry that I only have a €50 and will end up with €47.60 in coins. I don't make enough use of the public transport to warrant a regular commuter ticket.

It does its job for people like me who are not regular public transport users, and possibly encourages a bit more usage.

loyatemu · 24-10-2013 5:26pm

tag-on/tag-off on Dublin Bus would increase dwell time surely, as there'd be a queue of people trying to tag off. There also be the issue of unscrupulous users tagging off early to save money.

Alternative would be to put card readers at the stops but this would be insanely expensive due to the ridiculous amount of stops on DB's network.

SimonQuinlank · 24-10-2013 5:43pm

Would be handy if DB had a few top up machines at busy stops in the city centre (College Green,O'Connell St etc)

Cookie_Monster · 24-10-2013 7:31pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Given the complexities involved I'm not sure a "big bang" would be wise? Far better to do it in phases and solve the problems that inevitably will arise, rather than having complete chaos.

All could be dealt with over the course of a year max if not at once or updates could be released to correct issues quickly after release like most IT systems these days. Compare it to something like windows 8, it's not launched in bits and pieces over years, its launched ready to go and the flaws that are found are very quickly updated. It can't be that hard can it?

lxflyer wrote: »

The system was not in development for 10 years + as you suggest - politicians, civil and public servants were arguing over how to do it for that time.

As I recall the back office tender was awarded in 2009, about 18 months before the system went live.

Wikipedia and the Indo would disagree with you

wiki wrote:

The Railway Procurement Agency, responsible for the development of light railway and metro infrastructure, started developing an integrated smart card system. First plans were made at the end of the last century and initially it was planned to introduce an integrated card when the Luas system would start to operate in 2004 or 2005. The development of the new system had many delays and set-backs and the costs for the new system were far higher than budgeted.[2]

LXFlyer · 24-10-2013 7:52pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

All could be dealt with over the course of a year max if not at once or updates could be released to correct issues quickly after release like most IT systems these days. Compare it to something like windows 8, it's not launched in bits and pieces over years, its launched ready to go and the flaws that are found are very quickly updated. It can't be that hard can it?

Well Oyster took over 10 years to fully develop.

You're dealing with multiple systems, multiple operators, multiple fare structures etc - that is not going to be done overnight.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Wikipedia and the Indo would disagree with you

That's the development of the LUAS smartcard. The delay in the ITS development was entirely down to the various parties (public and civil servants) disagreeing.

The backend contract for LEAP was awarded in 2009, approximately 18 months before it went live.

paulieb · 24-10-2013 7:55pm

It makes perfect sense that its a mess, possible on purpose.
More consultant's will be needed to rectify the problems, spread some of that government money around the old boys network.

keith16 · 24-10-2013 10:56pm

paulieb wrote: »

It makes perfect sense that its a mess, possible on purpose.
More consultant's will be needed to rectify the problems, spread some of that government money around the old boys network.

True, however, consultants don't force the public sector to spunk public money down a black hole. I am certain that requirements put to consultants change on an weekly basis. But yeah, the whole thing is a mess.

I rarely use the leap card. When I got it first, I stupidly used it for return journeys on the DART. Now I only have it in the wallet as a matter of last resort.

Why does the Leap card exist?

Comments