Munster SHC QF: Clare vs Limerick; Semple Stadium, Thurles; 24th May; 4pm

Fireball07 · 17-05-2015 1:37pm #1

It might be a bit early, but I'm very very excited about the start of this year's Munster Championship and it should be a cracker to be honest.

Both teams have had poor starts to the year, Limerick did win the Waterford Crystal Cup but then failed to gain promotion from Division 1B once again and fell pretty lamely to Dublin in the quarter-final. Clare were relegated from Division 1A and although they performed well in the relegation play-off, they couldn't beat Kilkenny and after a poor 2014 too, they went almost 12 months without winning a competitive game.

They were All-Ireland champions in 2013 however, and still have some real talent but will be missing some key players from that year and a lot of fringe players. Most notably, HotY nominee Podge Collins has stuck to football only this year under the tutelage of his father, while their best player of last year Colm Galvin is heading off to the US for the summer and will be a huge loss. Sean Collins, Cathal McInerney and Davy O'Halloran have joined Podge with the footballers and Patrick Kelly & Liam Markham are others who are currently no longer on the panel, with Joe O'Connor & Paul Kinnerk from the backroom team also departed. With Brendan Bugler suspended, and injuriese for Peter Duggan, Darach Honan, Daire Keane and possibly Cian Dillon & Conor McGrath; the depth of Clare's panel has been severely tested.

Limerick are missing All-Star nominated goalkeeper, Nickie Quaid, who has been a secure safe of hands for them in recent seasons; with Barry Hennessy, goalkeeper of this year's Munster club champions, Kilmallock, or Aaron Murphy, keeper on the Munster U-21-winning team of 2011 set to replace him. David Breen is also likely to miss out; with key players such as captain Donal O'Grady, Kevin Downes and current All-Star Seamus Hickey only just returning from injury. TJ Ryan has drawn some criticism for not including the talented Alan Dempsey in the panel, and Tom Ryan of South Liberties doesn't seem set to make the final cut either. Cian Lynch is really the only player introduced this year who seems set to start, although David Reidy has once again shone in the early season.

The last time these teams met was the All-Ireland semi-final in 2013, in which Clare were comfortable winners; Limerick simply didn't turn up on the day, hit some bad wides from frees and spent the whole match chasing the game while Clare were able to knock over scores from distance through the likes of Tony Kelly and Colin Ryan. Limerick have matured since then, but the poor league form may be a cause of concern for TJ and his management team.

Possible teams: (may ask a mod to edit the real teams in when they are announced)

Clare

Patrick Kelly
Domhnall O'Donovan David McInerney Cian Dillon
Jack Browne Conor Ryan Pat O'Connor
Seadna Morey Patrick Donnellan
John Conlon Tony Kelly Colin Ryan
Conor McGrath Shane O'Donnell David Reidy

That may see Pat O'Connor drop back as sweeper, Donnellan going to wing-back and Colin Ryan or Tony Kelly helping around midfield with David Reidy playing the Podge role. Shane Golden, Nicky or Gudgie O'Connell are also possibilities around midfield. If Dillon misses out, Morey could drop back or Flanagan may come in, while if Conor McGrath misses out, it might be Aaron Cunningham to start or possibly Bobby Duggan.

Limerick

Barry Hennessy
Stephen Walsh Richie McCarthy Seamus Hickey
Wayne McNamara Gavin O'Mahony Tom Condon
Paudie O'Brien Jim-Bob Ryan
Donal O'Grady Declan Hannon Paul Browne
Graeme Mulcahy Shane Dowling Cian Lynch

That would also suggest a 2-man inside forward line, Paul Browne dropping back to midfield, with Cian Lynch roaming out from corner-forward.

It should be a great game, Munster GAA are doing a deal where you can get a terrace ticket for this and entry to the football match between the two teams the night before for €20; €30 if you want to be in the stand. Both terraces are open afaik. And I think the intermediate game is on beforehand which should be entertaining, two very talented young teams likely to be involved, backboned by the respective U-21 teams.

randd1 · 17-05-2015 1:53pm

Limerick by 6+

Based on league form you'd have to go with Clare.

If Limerick bring their Munster championship form of the last 3 years (poor league form didn't matter come championship) Then its Liemrick's game.

Overall, I think that Clare have the better forwards, but a weak defense. Limerick are more or less even at the back and up front. If Limerick can hold the Clare forwards a bit, they should be able to put enough pressure on the Clare backs to crack them.

But you have to go on the most recent form and that's from the league. In that context Clare had the better league. Clare to win.

Fireball07 · 17-05-2015 6:46pm

Draw

randd1 wrote: »

Based on league form you'd have to go with Clare.

If Limerick bring their Munster championship form of the last 3 years (poor league form didn't matter come championship) Then its Liemrick's game.

Overall, I think that Clare have the better forwards, but a weak defense. Limerick are more or less even at the back and up front. If Limerick can hold the Clare forwards a bit, they should be able to put enough pressure on the Clare backs to crack them.

But you have to go on the most recent form and that's from the league. In that context Clare had the better league. Clare to win.

I'd agree with that... based on league form. But if Limerick don't improve from their league form, we might as well write off the whole year now. I think it's bad but TJ has pretty much said that the league was only incidental for them; I'm of the opinion we can't afford to hang around 1B for much longer but that's how he sees it.

Not that Clare did have a particularly good league, they did come bottom of 1A and get relegated, but their performances at the end were strong. But I suppose all their games would have been at a higher intensity. Limerick drew with Waterford but had 1 of our starting forwards on that day and played quite poorly (although still could have won). This has been our focus for a while.

I give us the edge just because of Clare's injuries; although we do have serious issues in our half-back line.

Twoman Fullbackline · 17-05-2015 10:54pm

Draw

One of the cagiest build-ups to a championship opener I can remember.

Both teams will be fielding depleted starting fifteens. Podge Collins, Colm Galvin and, if he fails to make the cut, Conor McGrath would all be massive losses for Clare. The wagons have been circled north of the Shannon since the fireworks earlier in the year, but they do seem to have a few injury worries, and have been poor in Munster over the last number of years.

Limerick, who have the better record in the provincial championship of late, have their own injury worries as well. David Breen is a major loss, especially with Kevin Downes also possibly not at full fitness, as these are two big, powerful hurlers, puck-out targets who will also run at defences. Nickie Quaid has been possibly the most solid keeper in the country over the last couple of years, rarely if ever makes a mistake, but we are lucky in that we have two very good back-ups in Barry Hennessey and Aaron Murphy.

Both counties would have concerns over their defences, Limerick's poorest line last year was their half-back line. Moving Tom Condon to wing-back is a good move, where he has more scope to attack the ball and can go for scores from distance. If Tom Ryan was parachuted into the team to go on the other wing I feel it would be a major boost, but this is unlikely. Up front Clare have the edge, particularly if McGrath starts. Tony Kelly has been in superb form in the league and the return of Shane O'Donnell is a massive boost, ran riot against Kilkenny. His battle with Richie McCarthy will be an intriguing one.

After the Dublin game I would not have been confident at all about 2015, but as I say both squads have had difficult springs so this is a real 50/50 game. A win for either side could be a massive springboard for the year. Tipp await the winners but it is so close between the teams right now that neither would go in that fixture with any fear, particularly Limerick having beaten Tipp in the last two years and having the game at home. The major fault I had with Limerick's league was the lack of any real game-plan - if Limerick look to pull a player back as sweeper and mix deliveries into space with direct ball, particularly into Dowling on the edge of the square, I think Limerick do have inside forwards to do damage - but that is a massive if.

Based on availability and reports from challenge matches, the following is a mix of how I expect/hope they line out:
Hennessy, Walsh, McCarthy, Hickey, McNamara, O'Mahoney, Condon, P O'Brien, J Ryan, Reidy, Hannon, Browne, Mulcahy, Dowling, Tobin

Subs: S O'Brien, O'Grady, Fitzgibbon, Downes, Lynch

Fireball07 · 17-05-2015 11:29pm

Draw

I'd agree with almost all of the above, but I think that Dodge & Lynch will definitely start for Reidy & Tobin, despite what we may want/hope for.

I'd like to see Tom Morrissey used as a sub though, he can win ball and his directness causes teams problems. He is young, but he's a serious talent.

slegs · 18-05-2015 9:17am

Draw

anyone else having issues ordering tickets on tickets.ie? Keeps saying session expired

slegs · 18-05-2015 9:38am

Draw

slegs wrote: »

anyone else having issues ordering tickets on tickets.ie? Keeps saying session expired

its ok now

Browney7 · 18-05-2015 12:26pm

Draw

Nice first post fireball. Good to see someone putting in effort and thought instead of the usual lads trying to get in with the "well lads who's going to win".

Bookies odds are interesting. Pretty much a pick em game 50/50.

I think we have the players to stifle the clare danger men and the forwards to do damage on the clare backs. Need to move the ball intelligently and quickly into whoever plays full forward and test the clare full back line.

That said, ourselves and Galway are the real jeckel and Hyde teams and no one knows what team will show up. Hopeful but not confident. Same as always.

Vanolder · 18-05-2015 12:37pm

Clare by 1-5

McGrath is flying it. This young Clare team of champions will be too good for the Limerick mullockers. Clare by 6+

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 1:03pm

McGrath's availability is hugely important. Not alone for the talent he possesses but if he's not there it means Limerick's allocation of marking duties becomes easier. Seamus Hickey will have to mark either himself or O'Donnell and I think Ryan will want him on McGrath if he starts, but the way O'Donnell played against Kilkenny I think they need someone sticky on him. Tom Condon is the other option. They can't put Richie McCarthy on him one on one and leave him exposed in front. There will need to be either a deeper defensive line or a sweeper to protect McCarthy, it was pretty shambolic the lack of protection he got v Dublin and it's clear he hasn't lightning speed so you need somebody covering in front.

Is Colm Galvin available this weekend? He could conceivably be still around til June. Again, massive player and him being available would cast a different complexion on things. Limerick's midfield has been very impressive since last year and if they can get on top here and limit Tony Kelly's influence then it will have a big say in the winning of the game.

There will need to be a big increase in the intensity and sharpness of the players from the league, you would imagine that will happen. Forwards look a little bit more dangerous, I think Clare's backs are poorly coached and if the movement is good for Limerick chances will arise aplenty.

At full strength I'd fancy Clare, but the way things are right now with players missing I think that Limerick will come out on top but they must not be naive and make appropriate plans for the main dangers in the Clare team. Davy is very poor at reacting quickly to games going against his side, so if Limerick get ahead early on they should win.

zombieHanalei · 18-05-2015 1:04pm

Limerick have put themselves in a position where they need to react to a disappointing league campaign for the last few years now, and I wonder does that lead to them peaking too early as arguably they have tended to put in their best performance of the season in the first championship game and not really improve much as the year goes on, they tend to come on an awful lot in between league and championship.

Limerick's reward for victory here is a potential repeat of the home comforts they took advantage of in 2013; a home semi against Tipp with a final possibly against Cork also in Limerick. (Relax Waterford folks, I'm only being hypothetical here, I honestly couldn't call the Waterford v Cork game right now)

I look at the championship right now and the following possibility is sticking out in my mind from my own county's perspective; Limerick to beat Cork in the Munster final; Kilkenny to beat Dublin in a Leinster final that is actually competitive for once; Tipperary and Clare to come through the qualifiers and see off Dublin and Cork in the quarters, and Limerick to get beaten at the semi final stage again by one of the teams they had knocked out of Munster now with momentum behind them and most importantly, having timed their run and peak time just right.

The provincial championships really don't matter anymore, if a team gets to the final I've no doubt that they go all out to win it but an exit at the quarter final or semi final stage is no big deal. The provincial championships are only there to determine at what phase you enter the open draw All-Ireland championship.

I honestly can't read Davy right now; on the one hand I believe he'll have them right up for this as Clare need to make a statement after a difficult 12 months; but on the other hand will they be thinking bigger picture; that being to get the momentum rolling with the qualifiers and peaking at the right time like they did in 2013. And even at that, that didn't exactly go to plan last year.

The Munster championship could just be an exhibition of shadow boxing this year; does any team really want to show their hand so early or is it better to wait until July? This game is really difficult to call, it could be as simple as who wants it more in my opinion; both teams have to balance reacting to difficult league campaigns with not peaking too soon. Here's hoping for a good game.

Fireball07 · 18-05-2015 1:09pm

Draw

zombieHanalei wrote: »

The Munster championship could just be an exhibition of shadow boxing this year; does any team really want to show their hand so early or is it better to wait until July? This game is really difficult to call, it could be as simple as who wants it more in my opinion; both teams have to balance reacting to difficult league campaigns with not peaking too soon. Here's hoping for a good game.

I believe every team goes out to win every game tbh, it's way too risky not being at full flight... while you mightn't mind being knocked out, the qualifiers are a minefield, especially as more teams become competitive. Look at 2013, we beat Tipp, no one had given us a chance, Tipp were out after 1 round; we probably would have been too if we had lost. Admittedly they drew Kilkenny but if you've already lost a game, and teams like Wexford, Galway and then Waterford/Cork, Clare/Limerick start getting involved, it gets dangerous planning for that.

lim4ev · 18-05-2015 1:37pm

Draw

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Limerick have put themselves in a position where they need to react to a disappointing league campaign for the last few years now, and I wonder does that lead to them peaking too early as arguably they have tended to put in their best performance of the season in the first championship game and not really improve much as the year goes on, they tend to come on an awful lot in between league and championship.

The provincial championships really don't matter anymore, if a team gets to the final I've no doubt that they go all out to win it but an exit at the quarter final or semi final stage is no big deal. The provincial championships are only there to determine at what phase you enter the open draw All-Ireland championship.

I honestly can't read Davy right now; on the one hand I believe he'll have them right up for this as Clare need to make a statement after a difficult 12 months; but on the other hand will they be thinking bigger picture; that being to get the momentum rolling with the qualifiers and peaking at the right time like they did in 2013. And even at that, that didn't exactly go to plan last year.

The Munster championship could just be an exhibition of shadow boxing this year; does any team really want to show their hand so early or is it better to wait until July? This game is really difficult to call, it could be as simple as who wants it more in my opinion; both teams have to balance reacting to difficult league campaigns with not peaking too soon. Here's hoping for a good game.

I don't know,i see your point but still think winning is better than losing remember the losers of this or any other game aren't guaranteed safe passage as before there's a lot of minefields out there these days and I for one want limerick to go the direct route and I also think clare will too,like how long is it since they won munster? 98?

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 1:39pm

Limerick won a Munster and lost an all ireland semi, last year they lost a Munster and still lost and all-ireland semi. Losing in Munster does not help your chances further down the line. You are not only allowed win one game against the same opponents in a year.

Win every game. It's the only mindset to have. A lot of games will be decided by luck given the similar nature of the teams in terms of ability and what luck you will have in July/August is not something you can work into your plans for May/June. Shadow boxing is an absolute nonsense and more often than not an excuse used when the team expected to win doesn't.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 2:18pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Limerick won a Munster and lost an all ireland semi, last year they lost a Munster and still lost and all-ireland semi. Losing in Munster does not help your chances further down the line. You are not only allowed win one game against the same opponents in a year.

Win every game. It's the only mindset to have. A lot of games will be decided by luck given the similar nature of the teams in terms of ability and what luck you will have in July/August is not something you can work into your plans for May/June. Shadow boxing is an absolute nonsense and more often than not an excuse used when the team expected to win doesn't.

That's a complete load of nonsense with respect when clear as day not my opinion now but actually a fact to be fair, no team since cork won munster championship won the all Ireland the last ten years
So yes to a degree winning and getting to a munster final is very important it's imo absolutely no benefit in cork or any all Ireland contenders winning munster at all
Absolutely none as the last ten years prove conclusively without any doubt whatsoever

Using limerick is a bad example when last year to be fair the all Ireland quatre final was over before it started in as admitted by many wexford lads since they were mentally drained in playing four games in four weeks up to the limerick game so to equalise that the last two years meant no difference in munster value of games is wrong when you should use all Irelands as the ultimate judge and the fact remains no munster champion wins an all Ireland based on the last ten years just like division two hurling teams don't win all Ireland either since wexford in ninety six

You will remember waterford who hammered limerick in munster eight years ago were beaten by limerick in the all Ireland semi final that same year when an expected waterford team to reach an all Ireland had a hugely dissapointing defeat and failed to reach the all Ireland final
Longford offaly the weekend showed even in league and championship being so close proximity to their recent games shadow boxing went on in the league.

Imo it's naive to think in this day and age that shadow boxing doesn't go on it clearly does in all sports
Look at ulster rugby this weekend they apparently had a few injuries so they picked a second team for the Glasgow game as they knew they were likely to play them again next week
If people think that this week's results will have any bearing on next week their wrong as it's going to be a close game
Even in the rugby premiership Northampton picked a second string team as they have the semi final next week and Gloucester who play connaught in a European play off picked a weak team for their last game yesterday
It's clear teams have to prioritise certain games as especially teams with a lack of depth
Kilkenny are the only exception who can win every game imo

This talk about luck, in fairness there's more to hurling than luck
Yes luck plays a huge part in injury and if one team is unlucky with them the game can be over before it starts but if both teams have fit panels luck has no real significant input
What essentially makes the difference between winning and loosing is better players, tactical astute management and effective game systems that have huge adaptability and flexibility to change
Its not a case of getting out the rosary beeds, saying a few prayers and hope your team gets lucky and you win an all-ireland
Try telling Brian cody to belive in luck.

glasagusban · 18-05-2015 2:30pm

I think talk of not showing their hand is nonsense, I don't think teams do this. I do think they improve as the summer goes on though, that may lead to that perception.

Both teams have had dispiriting league campaigns and need to at least give a good display to put those to bed. Either team being flat will now after a rubbish league campaign is unlikely to turn it around and hit form for the qualifiers.

Clare need to perform this summer after a massively disappointing 2014 and Davy is under massive pressure from fans. These players haven't won a Munster title either. They'll be going all out to win it.

Limerick have placed huge emphasis on being a championship team and seem to have been dismissive of the league, much to the annoyance of some fans who want them out of 1b. They've actually managed to discard league form and turn it on for championship the last three years so I do expect them to do it again. They're also under pressure. After the last two seasons reaching an AI final is the metric of improvement. Win this game and they have Tipp at home, and have reason to be confident. Followed by a Munster final they will be hungry to win, possibly a rematch at home against cork (though I fancy Waterford to win). Going through the front door would be a major advantage for limerick IMO.

Also, both teams should have enough experience from the last two years not to succumb to a semifinal malaise after the 5 week break if they win Munster, as seems to have happened to limerick and cork in recent years.

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 2:45pm

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

That's a complete load of nonsense with respect when clear as day not my opinion now but actually a fact to be fair, no team since cork won munster championship won the all Ireland the last ten years
So yes to a degree winning and getting to a munster final is very important it's imo absolutely no benefit in cork or any all Ireland contenders winning munster at all
Absolutely none as the last ten years prove conclusively without any doubt whatsoever

This talk about luck, in fairness there's more to hurling than luck
Yes luck plays a huge part in injury and if one team is unlucky with them the game can be over before it starts but if both teams have fit panels luck has no real significant input
What essentially makes the difference between winning and loosing is better players, tactical astute management and effective game systems that have huge adaptability and flexibility to change
Its not a case of getting out the rosary beeds, saying a few prayers and hope your team gets lucky and you win an all-ireland
Try telling Brian cody to belive in luck.

Try telling Brian Cody about shadow boxing. Waterford have nothing to do with this thread, so you can stop trying to relate this to Waterford and Cork.

When did I say hurling was all about luck? I think if the teams are similarly matched then luck will be the deciding factor if there is one. A decision, a break of a ball in one direction at a pivotal part of a game definitely has a big bearing, though I do believe the better teams win always with some very rare exceptions.

If you win a Munster you are in an all-ireland semi final, that is far more advantageous than being in the qualifiers and being one game away from defeat. Limerick weren't good enough in 2013, only Kilkenny were better than Tipp in 2009, 2011 and 2012 (maybe Galway that year as well). Tipp under performed v Cork in 2010, so the Munster Final wasn't between the two best teams in the province. 2008 Tipp were a very young team. 2006 only Kilkenny were better than Cork.

You want to win every game your involved in as a player, definitely every championship game. Cork have won 3 Munster titles since 2005, the only year they won an all-ireland in those 10 years they won Munster as well so maybe have a think about that one. Statistics never tell the full story. Whichever one of Clare or Limerick loses is one game away from being out of the championship, they are better off winning end of.

glasagusban · 18-05-2015 2:46pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Try telling Brian Cody about shadow boxing. Waterford have nothing to do with this thread, so you can stop trying to relate this to Waterford and Cork.

When did I say hurling was all about luck? I think if the teams are similarly matched then luck will be the deciding factor if there is one. A decision, a break of a ball in one direction at a pivotal part of a game definitely has a big bearing, though I do believe the better teams win always with some very rare exceptions.

If you win a Munster you are in an all-ireland semi final, that is far more advantageous than being in the qualifiers and being one game away from defeat. Limerick weren't good enough in 2013, only Kilkenny were better than Tipp in 2009, 2011 and 2012 (maybe Galway that year as well). Tipp under performed v Cork in 2010, so the Munster Final wasn't between the two best teams in the province. 2008 Tipp were a very young team. 2006 only Kilkenny were better than Cork.

You want to win every game your involved in as a player, definitely every championship game. Cork have won 3 Munster titles since 2005, the only year they won an all-ireland in those 10 years they won Munster as well so maybe have a think about that one. Statistics never tell the full story. Whichever one of Clare or Limerick loses is one game away from being out of the championship, they are better off winning end of.

Agreed.

Twoman Fullbackline · 18-05-2015 2:57pm

Draw

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

This talk about luck, in fairness there's more to hurling than luck
Yes luck plays a huge part in injury and if one team is unlucky with them the game can be over before it starts but if both teams have fit panels luck has no real significant input

One thing I'll say to this: Pat Horgan 2013 Munster Final.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 3:27pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Try telling Brian Cody about shadow boxing. Waterford have nothing to do with this thread, so you can stop trying to relate this to Waterford and Cork.

When did I say hurling was all about luck? I think if the teams are similarly matched then luck will be the deciding factor if there is one. A decision, a break of a ball in one direction at a pivotal part of a game definitely has a big bearing, though I do believe the better teams win always with some very rare exceptions.

If you win a Munster you are in an all-ireland semi final, that is far more advantageous than being in the qualifiers and being one game away from defeat. Limerick weren't good enough in 2013, only Kilkenny were better than Tipp in 2009, 2011 and 2012 (maybe Galway that year as well). Tipp under performed v Cork in 2010, so the Munster Final wasn't between the two best teams in the province. 2008 Tipp were a very young team. 2006 only Kilkenny were better than Cork.

You want to win every game your involved in as a player, definitely every championship game. Cork have won 3 Munster titles since 2005, the only year they won an all-ireland in those 10 years they won Munster as well so maybe have a think about that one. Statistics never tell the full story. Whichever one of Clare or Limerick loses is one game away from being out of the championship, they are better off winning end of.

No cork don't have to think about it, in you pick one win from ten years and try say it proves conclusively winning munster is good
What about the other nine years????
Munster has no relevance absolutely none based on the past ten years to an all Ireland and you can dress it up any way your perception leads you to but look the stats don't lie
Cork were an exceptional team ten years ago and like KK only team capable beating waterford twice sorry now but I have to mention waterford here as there best examples beat team twice in the championship
But that was ten years ago
Times changed and winning munster won't do you any good to winning an all Ireland that very year imo

I only brought cork waterford in to it simply to illustrate like I brought other teams in to it like the rugby to illustrate contrary to your false myth that shadow boxing doesn't happen imo it does but yes it won't be admitted by teams and yes teams don't go to loose a game but have no doubt some games take more focus than others

Back to the limerick clare game it's vitally important that either teams wins and gets to a munster final I agree totally but this winning every game talk imo is not important when you get to a munster final and it deprives you of momentum if you win it
Teams win championship outside kk have to peak at certain times so munster final certainly not a game to peak for
Limerick and clare is all out then v tipp also but win two games they can relax a bit then for the all ireland series

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 3:42pm

My point is not that winning Munster is the be all and end all. The point is that people seem to have some bizarre notion that it is a negative for your all-ireland chances. When you get to an all-ireland semi final, you have the same chance of winning an all-ireland as the other three teams left in the competition. Winning a provincial title gets you there.

It's as relevant as talk of no Munster winning team winning the all-ireland in the last 10 years (it's actually 9 years) and 7 of those years Kilkenny have won the all-ireland who don't participate in the Munster championship so it's a pretty redundant statistic. The fact is Kilkenny have just been unquestionably a superior team to everybody else in that timeframe, and that is the reason Munster winning teams have not won more in that time, not because they peaked to soon or other bulls**t.

The only way to go out is to win. Teams do not shadow box in the championship.

glasagusban · 18-05-2015 3:51pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

My point is not that winning Munster is the be all and end all. The point is that people seem to have some bizarre notion that it is a negative for your all-ireland chances. When you get to an all-ireland semi final, you have the same chance of winning an all-ireland as the other three teams left in the competition. Winning a provincial title gets you there.

It's as relevant as talk of no Munster winning team winning the all-ireland in the last 10 years (it's actually 9 years) and 7 of those years Kilkenny have won the all-ireland who don't participate in the Munster championship so it's a pretty redundant statistic. The fact is Kilkenny have just been unquestionably a superior team to everybody else in that timeframe, and that is the reason Munster winning teams have not won more in that time, not because they peaked to soon or other bulls**t.

The only way to go out is to win. Teams do not shadow box in the championship.

I do think it can be a disadvantage to inexperienced teams and perhaps the 5 week break contributed to Cork's and Limerick's collapse in the semi in the last two years. Particularly where the team is drawn into a Munster semi and so have only two games under their belt going into and AI semi. However as I said above, I think Clare and Limerick have enough experience built up over the last two years to avoid turning up flat after the 5 week break.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 3:56pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

My point is not that winning Munster is the be all and end all. The point is that people seem to have some bizaree opion that it is a negative for your all-ireland chances. When you get to an all-ireland semi final, you have the same chance of winning an all-ireland as the other three teams left in the competition. Winning a provincial title gets you there.

It's as relevant as talk of no Munster winning team winning the all-ireland in the last 10 years (it's actually 9 years) and 7 of those years Kilkenny have won the all-ireland who don't participate in the Munster championship so it's a pretty redundant statistic. The fact is Kilkenny have just been unquestionably a superior team to everybody else in that timeframe, and that is the reason Munster winning teams have not won more in that time, not because they peaked to soon or other bulls**t.

The only way to go out is to win. Teams do not shadow box in the championship.

But again if this is so why has only one munster winner the last ten years won one all ireland even allowing for kk dommince it's still a poor reflection imo on munster
With out kk none munster champions still won it in those years either
Waterford in 2010, tipp in 2012, limerick year after and cork now last year won munster didn't get to the all Ireland final as Waterford also in 07 so there clear clear examples also
I'm not going to keep saying it as this is clare v limerick but the statistics are clear as day winning munster doesn't help all Ireland pursuit
I never questioned getting to a munster final to as imo that's helps avoid the qualifiers but I'm on about winning munster affects all Ireland success

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 3:56pm

glasagusban wrote: »

I do think it can be a disadvantage to inexperienced teams and perhaps the 5 week break contributed to Cork's and Limerick's collapse in the semi in the last two years. Particularly where the team is drawn into a Munster semi and so have only two games under their belt going into and AI semi. However as I said above, I think Clare and Limerick have enough experience built up over the last two years to avoid turning up flat after the 5 week break.

Possibly but in hindsight were either Cork or Limerick good enough to win the all-ireland the years they lost them? I don't think so to be honest, particularly Cork last year. They could have lost the Munster Final, if they played Tipp after they were still getting that hammering.

Mountainlad · 18-05-2015 3:58pm

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

But again if this is so why has only one munster winner the last ten years won one all ireland even allowing for kk dommince it's still a poor reflection imo on munster
With out kk none munster champions still won it in those years either
Waterford in 2010, tipp in 2012, limerick year after and cork now last year won munster didn't get to the all Ireland final as Waterford also in 07 so there clear clear examples also
I'm not going to keep saying it as this is clare v limerick but the statistics are clear as day winning munster doesn't help all Ireland pursuit
I never questioned getting to a munster final to as imo that's helps avoid the qualifiers but I'm on about winning munster affects all Ireland success

So if Cork beat Waterford they're going to throw the Munster Final then?

glasagusban · 18-05-2015 4:07pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Possibly but in hindsight were either Cork or Limerick good enough to win the all-ireland the years they lost them? I don't think so to be honest, particularly Cork last year. They could have lost the Munster Final, if they played Tipp after they were still getting that hammering.

Maybe and maybe not. But both collapsed in semis after a 5 week break, both teams were capable of better than their semi final performances. I do think it is a hindrance, but I think that experience can combat that.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 4:11pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Possibly but in hindsight were either Cork or Limerick good enough to win the all-ireland the years they lost them? I don't think so to be honest, particularly Cork last year. They could have lost the Munster Final, if they played Tipp after they were still getting that hammering.

That's the point if cork met tipp in munster last year cork would probably won as cork needed munster more but it would be false dawn as winning munster means nothing

You're right also limerick were not good enough to win the all Ireland as hammering to clare proved the year before

In 2007 waterford certainly were the better team but munster win proved how hard it was for them after beating limerick in munster limerick dominated them being huge under dog and qualifiing for the all ireland when they had the dissapointing loss in the all Ireland semi final
Imo evidence shows its wrong to get carried away with munster results
In 08 tipp won munster didn't get to the all Ireland final so add tipp again in 12, Waterford 10, cork last year and limerick the year before there is six munster champions didn't get even to the all Ireland final and Bar one year none of the remaining five lost to kk in the route not getting to the all Ireland final so it proves clearly munster totally different then the all Ireland series

As for limerick clare a huge game where Davy is under immense pressure but imo he relishes it and he's outstanding record in the game with lit waterford and clare shows he doesn't shy away from any challenge
Limerick are quite and there's always one huge huge game in them and talk is they will play a sweeper and fair play to management for doing this
Good call
It's hard to call until the limerick team is named Thursday night clare probably won't announce it til Friday or Saturday night
I'd expect clare once they have most their lads available to win this as there not a bad team over night and have an outstanding bunch of hurlers and a proven manager who seem totally united after recent turbulence
This should be a cracking game
One cork posters said colm Lyons had poor game referee the weekend and he's the referee for Sunday

Vanolder · 18-05-2015 5:23pm

Clare by 1-5

glasagusban wrote: »

Maybe and maybe not. But both collapsed in semis after a 5 week break, both teams were capable of better than their semi final performances. I do think it is a hindrance, but I think that experience can combat that.

Dublin were immense in their 2013 semi final and only for a sending off probably would have beat Cork. KK ofter have 5 week breaks...It's all about mindset.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 5:41pm

Vanolder wrote: »

Dublin were immense in their 2013 semi final and only for a sending off probably would have beat Cork. KK ofter have 5 week breaks...It's all about mindset.

Dublin were not immense in the all Ireland semi final and even with out the sending off they would have lost to cork anyway as with full team struggled to put cork away up to that point

To compare kk is totally an apples and oranges situation as kk are the only team in Ireland where training is actually like almost a championship match and it's he'll for leather and kk intensity is up such is their depth in players
Other teams don't bar possibly a fully fit clare have the same panel to create a match day environment in training and Davy referee's games like cody no other inter county manager training matches comes close to these two
So their five weeks lay off is irrelevant to them and while most would love to be like KK they have to be wise in the realisation they won't be so they got to pick and choose their battles and when to peak and there's no doubts the all Ireland series from quatre final onwards helps team than waiting for five weeks playing training matches and challenge matches that are at best the odd intensity but more often than not footloose and Fancy free hurling in the intensity is non existent so you meet battle hardened teams coming through the quatre finals who have real momentum

Getting to munster final is all that matters then say you have injury worries and play few fringe players and give them game time
Make it clear they don't perform their dropped so you at least get performance in the munster final but you build your team and panel and training towards the all Ireland quarter final in two weeks
Then win that you're primed for the all ireland semi final

glasagusban · 18-05-2015 9:30pm

Vanolder wrote: »

Dublin were immense in their 2013 semi final and only for a sending off probably would have beat Cork. KK ofter have 5 week breaks...It's all about mindset.

I've always said it, wrongful sending off lost them the game, they'd have won it otherwise.

thinkstoomuch1 · 18-05-2015 10:10pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

So if Cork beat Waterford they're gping to throw the Munster Final then?

I wouldn't say throw the game
Throw is the wrong word
And they could go out with not the all focus to win and not have training peaked for the game
My point is I wouldn't if I was them peak for that game
Look at donegal peaking yesterday for Tyrone no interest cork league semi final or had Longford beating offaly in the league final two or three weeks ago

Going back to the question I asked and the examples I gave you how do you make it out winning munster helps all Ireland chances when aside from one winner in ten years winning an all Ireland
I showed in 2007, 08, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2010 all the munster championship winners of waterford twice, tipp twice and limerick and cork failed to get to all Ireland final
They didn't even get to the all Ireland final and that tells it's own story imo In six out of nine years munster champions failed to reach the final

Now the stats don't lie do they?
Your perception is munster winning it was your point from the outset doesn't affect a team all Ireland chances when the statics unfortunately prove other wise
I grew up adoring munster and I'd love it to hold more value but there's no point in dressing it up imo when the statics show otherwise
For a team needing silver ware it's fine to a point but I'd really questions does it actually really do anything for a team now imo

Munster SHC QF: Clare vs Limerick; Semple Stadium, Thurles; 24th May; 4pm

Who will win? 62 votes

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