Irish Rail - confiscated ticket

Notreally · 20-11-2014 12:36pm #1

Here's a problem that someone I know has experienced. I'd be keen to have your views on possible redress.

The person bought a ticket at a ticket machine on a Tuesday and forgot to specify that the outward part of the journey was supposed to take place on the Friday.

He got on the train on Friday and his ticket was checked.

Without any regard for his privacy or any presumption of innocence, the conductor found him guilty of fraud and then demanded his personal details. He then gave him a fine of 127 Euro and, for reasons that totally escape me, also confiscated the ticket (with the unused return portion). It appears that that Irish Rail's terms of service permit this confiscation, if the ticket was used as part of a "fraud".

Considering:

1. It was an honest mistake (which could potentially be avoided with a more user-friendly system for buying tickets at the machine);
2. The potential for not getting checked and then somehow getting though the barriers in Heuston and then fraudulently re-using the ticket is quite low anyway - and lower still considering the amount of time from Tuesday till Friday when the ticket could have previously been used;
3. The ticket was taken (and the return portion lost) before any appeal could have been launched...

it seems to be a very heavy-handed and unfair approach by the conductor. I would be keen to hear any experiences of how appeals are handled or defences that can be used effectively.

GarIT · 20-11-2014 12:39pm

Didn't have the right ticket, pay the fine, it's a non issue.

Beano · 20-11-2014 1:01pm

I'm sure they hear "it was an honest mistake" every day of their working lives. The fact is that they didnt have a valid ticket for travel so were charged the standard fare which is €127. You could ask a mod to move this to the commuting and transport forum where you might get more in-depth answers but i doubt you will get much sympathy.

dudara · 20-11-2014 2:00pm

Moved to Commuting & Transport

dudara

cgcsb · 20-11-2014 2:09pm

The ticket wasn't valid and it was bought from a ticket machine, so there's no grounds for appeal really. If you were sold an incorrect ticket by an IÉ agent owing to human error on the part of IÉ staff that'd be a different story.

GM228 · 20-11-2014 2:16pm

Notreally wrote: »

Here's a problem that someone I know has experienced. I'd be keen to have your views on possible redress.

The person bought a ticket at a ticket machine on a Tuesday and forgot to specify that the outward part of the journey was supposed to take place on the Friday.

He got on the train on Friday and his ticket was checked.

Without any regard for his privacy or any presumption of innocence, the conductor found him guilty of fraud and then demanded his personal details. He then gave him a fine of 127 Euro and, for reasons that totally escape me, also confiscated the ticket (with the unused return portion). It appears that that Irish Rail's terms of service permit this confiscation, if the ticket was used as part of a "fraud".

Considering:

1. It was an honest mistake (which could potentially be avoided with a more user-friendly system for buying tickets at the machine);
2. The potential for not getting checked and then somehow getting though the barriers in Heuston and then fraudulently re-using the ticket is quite low anyway - and lower still considering the amount of time from Tuesday till Friday when the ticket could have previously been used;
3. The ticket was taken (and the return portion lost) before any appeal could have been launched...

it seems to be a very heavy-handed and unfair approach by the conductor. I would be keen to hear any experiences of how appeals are handled or defences that can be used effectively.

It may be an honest mistake but it is not a valid ticket and therefore the person is liable for fine/ticket confiscation. Remember that the ticket remains the property of the rail company at all times, they are well within their rights to confiscate (also allowed confiscate DSFA free travel passes aswell)!

As states by another poster in fairness they probably do hear the honest mistake a lot, whilst some people are very honest and genuine and obviously telling the truth others are probably very convincing chancers and so I guess they need to draw the line and treat everyone the same, at the end of the day the onus is on the customer to ensure ticket is valid!

GM228

corktina · 20-11-2014 2:17pm

"The ticket wasn't valid and it was bought from a ticket machine, so there's no grounds for appeal really. If you were sold an incorrect ticket by an IÉ agent owing to human error on the part of IÉ staff that'd be a different story. "

Not"you"...OPs friend... ;-)

Notreally · 20-11-2014 2:20pm

Thanks - the mod has moved the thread.

You may or may not have sympathy for the initial mistake - fair enough. However, it still seems extreme for the conductor to work on the worst possible assumption (he could have achieved the same result with "sorry, dude, but I'm forced to do this, I don't mean to imply you're guilty"), publicly demand the name and then confiscate the ticket (and thereby the valid return section) in order, one imagines, to prevent the clearly non-existent fraud from being further perpetrated (I can imagine situations where confiscation would make sense, such as for a return student ticket, when the carrier isn't a student, for example). But when there is obviously no fraud, this seems bureaucratic at best and petty at worst).

LXFlyer · 20-11-2014 2:36pm

Notreally wrote: »

Thanks - the mod has moved the thread.

You may or may not have sympathy for the initial mistake - fair enough. However, it still seems extreme for the conductor to work on the worst possible assumption (he could have achieved the same result with "sorry, dude, but I'm forced to do this, I don't mean to imply you're guilty"), publicly demand the name and then confiscate the ticket (and thereby the valid return section) in order, one imagines, to prevent the clearly non-existent fraud from being further perpetrated (I can imagine situations where confiscation would make sense, such as for a return student ticket, when the carrier isn't a student, for example). But when there is obviously no fraud, this seems bureaucratic at best and petty at worst).

Unfortunately for your friend Irish Rail has in recent years implemented a zero tolerance approach to having the correct ticket, mainly due to a significant amount of fare evasion.

You may view this as unfair, but that's life I'm afraid.

goingnowhere · 20-11-2014 3:55pm

Return ticket is only valid if the outward portion is used, so confiscation is permitted. Irish Rail owns the ticket anyway

Ticket machine clearly shows the date for travel so no excuses

No valid ticket = fine

Nothing unfair or illegal here.

corktina · 20-11-2014 4:41pm

you can see where IE are coming from here. If a person bought a return on a tuesday and travelled and then tried to use the ticket again on the friday.....well, the inference is obvious.

Notreally · 20-11-2014 8:46pm

corktina wrote: »

you can see where IE are coming from here. If a person bought a return on a tuesday and travelled and then tried to use the ticket again on the friday.....well, the inference is obvious.

That's not the inference, that is the implicit accusation. It is not, however, what happened.

What happened was the ticket was purchased on Tuesday, the purchaser did not notice on the screen that the outward journey must take place on the first day of validity. It was not used till Friday.

I can see an argument that the ticket machine is explicit enough (although, in this case, it obviously wasn't), I can see the argument that they get sob stories all the time and can't make exceptions. I'm still having difficulty understanding why they have to act as if the person is a fraud, when there is an element of doubt and have big difficulty understanding the moral justification (even if there is a legal one) to confiscate the ticket, meaning that, in addition to the fine, a new return ticket had to be purchased.

Hilly Bill · 20-11-2014 10:09pm

It clearly states the valid dates of use on the ticket machine before you pay for it. If you fail to observe this then the fault lies with you.

winterwheat · 20-11-2014 10:17pm

I bought a train return ticket Monday morning and only realised today that it was a day return ticket, not a monthly one. Will irish rail understand my situation if I tell them or will I just have to buy another ticket?

corktina · 20-11-2014 10:23pm

Notreally wrote: »

That's not the inference, that is the implicit accusation. It is not, however, what happened.

What happened was the ticket was purchased on Tuesday, the purchaser did not notice on the screen that the outward journey must take place on the first day of validity. It was not used till Friday.

I can see an argument that the ticket machine is explicit enough (although, in this case, it obviously wasn't), I can see the argument that they get sob stories all the time and can't make exceptions. I'm still having difficulty understanding why they have to act as if the person is a fraud, when there is an element of doubt and have big difficulty understanding the moral justification (even if there is a legal one) to confiscate the ticket, meaning that, in addition to the fine, a new return ticket had to be purchased.

I'm aware that this is what you state happened, however , you can see why IE don't allow people to do this can't you?

Why wouldn't they prevent someone travelling on a ticket they believe may be being used fraudulently? I don't really see there is an element of doubt, although I accept an error was made.

harney · 20-11-2014 10:36pm

I can see why you would fine for the outward part, but are you not double punishing the customer by confiscating the return portion?

AlekSmart · 20-11-2014 10:44pm

Notreally wrote: »

Thanks - the mod has moved the thread.

You may or may not have sympathy for the initial mistake - fair enough. However, it still seems extreme for the conductor to work on the worst possible assumption (he could have achieved the same result with "sorry, dude, but I'm forced to do this, I don't mean to imply you're guilty"), publicly demand the name and then confiscate the ticket (and thereby the valid return section) in order, one imagines, to prevent the clearly non-existent fraud from being further perpetrated (I can imagine situations where confiscation would make sense, such as for a return student ticket, when the carrier isn't a student, for example). But when there is obviously no fraud, this seems bureaucratic at best and petty at worst).

I have to say all of the above appears to imply an expectation of Irish Rail providing some form of compartment where the Ticket-Checker could take people to sit and discuss the issues at hand.

Unfortunately,the days of such gentility have passed and the issues have to be dealt with as they arise and,in this particular case,with unambiguous directness.

In my expereience,it is the directness which presents the greatest challenge for Irish people generally,who at all times,have a preference for the more circuituous route,with the point only being made as the door closes behind them.

To return to the specific issue,tell your friend to appeal the fine in writing and also follow up with a phone call.

In reality,the infringement is fairly clear,with the expectation being that a Customer will pay enough attention to their TIM transaction to ensure they get the transaction they require.

In the Percy French days it would be "alright there Micheal,just alright" but times have moved on ...:(

GM228 · 20-11-2014 11:51pm

harney wrote: »

I can see why you would fine for the outward part, but are you not double punishing the customer by confiscating the return portion?

Now I'm only guessing but with a return which is discounted as opposed to two singles IE probably consider the outward and return as one and the same, abuse (or in their eyes anyway) the outward portion and the return portion is invalidated - and only two right in the case of people who do abuse the tickets! The fine/confiscation is not related to which part of the journey it occured on but rather the abuse of the ticket as a whole.

Again I understand this is a genuine mistake but I can understand why the ticket is confiscated if everyone has to be treated the same!

GM228

symbolic · 20-11-2014 11:57pm

Shame the the turnstile isn't clever enough to stop the person using the ticket on the wrong day. 127eur is handy money though.

GM228 · 21-11-2014 12:05am

symbolic wrote: »

Shame the the turnstile isn't clever enough to stop the person using the ticket on the wrong day. 127eur is handy money though.

AFAIK they do! Problem is a lot of people don't use the turnstile at all or use them correctly.

GM228

mountsky · 21-11-2014 1:36am

Notreally wrote: »

Here's a problem that someone I know has experienced. I'd be keen to have your views on possible redress.

The person bought a ticket at a ticket machine on a Tuesday and forgot to specify that the outward part of the journey was supposed to take place on the Friday.

He got on the train on Friday and his ticket was checked.

Without any regard for his privacy or any presumption of innocence, the conductor found him guilty of fraud and then demanded his personal details. He then gave him a fine of 127 Euro and, for reasons that totally escape me, also confiscated the ticket (with the unused return portion). It appears that that Irish Rail's terms of service permit this confiscation, if the ticket was used as part of a "fraud".

Considering:

1. It was an honest mistake (which could potentially be avoided with a more user-friendly system for buying tickets at the machine);
2. The potential for not getting checked and then somehow getting though the barriers in Heuston and then fraudulently re-using the ticket is quite low anyway - and lower still considering the amount of time from Tuesday till Friday when the ticket could have previously been used;
3. The ticket was taken (and the return portion lost) before any appeal could have been launched...

it seems to be a very heavy-handed and unfair approach by the conductor. I would be keen to hear any experiences of how appeals are handled or defences that can be used effectively.

I would suggest that the person would contact iarnrod eireann directly and with any luck,they might perhaps be given the opportunity to explain what happened

corktina · 21-11-2014 9:42am

GM228 wrote: »

Now I'm only guessing but with a return which is discounted as opposed to two singles IE probably consider the outward and return as one and the same, abuse (or in their eyes anyway) the outward portion and the return portion is invalidated - and only two right in the case of people who do abuse the tickets! The fine/confiscation is not related to which part of the journey it occured on but rather the abuse of the ticket as a whole.

Again I understand this is a genuine mistake but I can understand why the ticket is confiscated if everyone has to be treated the same!

GM228

there's also the suspicion that the traveler went up on Tues and back on Weds or Thurs and has already used both portions of the ticket when caught on Friday .

Hilly Bill · 21-11-2014 7:49pm

winterwheat wrote: »

I bought a train return ticket Monday morning and only realised today that it was a day return ticket, not a monthly one. Will irish rail understand my situation if I tell them or will I just have to buy another ticket?

You will have to get a new ticket.

Rightwing · 21-11-2014 7:53pm

Jail ...anyone ?

Notreally · 22-11-2014 7:56pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

In my expereience,it is the directness which presents the greatest challenge for Irish people generally,who at all times,have a preference for the more circuituous route,with the point only being made as the door closes behind them.

How kind of you to provide an example of needlessly circuitously explained logic to show the propensity of the Irish to being needlessly circuitousness.

I would suggest that, if you are determined to be so pompous, that you invest in a spell-checker, to avoid coming across as someone whose verbiage is a camouflage for vacuity.

antoinolachtnai · 23-11-2014 3:33pm

A penalty is not really a finding of guilt, or fraud or anything else. It is just a payment you make for not having the right ticket. The reason why the person didn't have the right ticket or the person's previous good character doesn't really come into it. The presumption of innocence doesn't really come into it either. (A criminal trial would be quite a different situation.)

AlekSmart · 24-11-2014 8:53pm

Notreally wrote: »

How kind of you to provide an example of needlessly circuitously explained logic to show the propensity of the Irish to being needlessly circuitousness.

I would suggest that, if you are determined to be so pompous, that you invest in a spell-checker, to avoid coming across as someone whose verbiage is a camouflage for vacuity.

You got my point

?

Irish Rail - confiscated ticket

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